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One small part of the solution...
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"I don't honestly see a solution ever being found for this problem."

this is a quote from the thread on first-time racers, and refers to the "ride on the right, pass on the left" rule that seems so obvious but doesn't appear to have gotten into the common consciousness of the riders out there.

while on the course a motorcycle came past with an official on back. funny thing, it came by at the perfect time, there were people all over the road in front of me, not passing, not dropping back, and one guy was riding just across the double yellow, like one foot on the other side of it, and without any real urgency to get back to OUR SIDE of the road, let alone to the right of the road.

now, here i am, buzzing along at a speed 3mph faster than this guy, and i had to basically stop in my tracks, because if i rode past him on MY side of the centerline i'd be guilty of passing on the right. there was an official right there, so what could i do? i had to wait. (i don't know whether a penalty was handed down or not, that's not my issue, it's not why i'm writing).

i write all this as preparatory to my question: i have nothing but admiration for the job our officials have done, and we have a very well officiated sport, esp if you grade on a curve. one thing, tho, our officials are absolutely forbidden to exercise any proactivity.

this has been the doctrine for a half-dozen years, and i must ask, has it worked? the riders in the wildflower tri do not yet get the rule. they didn't get it six years ago, they don't get it today, and i was, i guess, struck by the fact that it was MY job to gently remind everyone on the course to ride on the right unless passing, while the official was entirely mute. what bad thing would happen if the official was to spend his day repeating, while on the back of his motorcycle, "ride on the right unless passing."?

to me, it seemed like the waste of an official's good time. he's out there. he obviously didn't have good attendance at his pre-race meeting. why not extend the pre-race meeting out onto the course, and just keep repeating to everyone, "ride on the right unless passing."?

i just don't see the harm in this, esp in view of the abject failure, for all their good intentions and good work, for the officials to get triathletes to understand this rule. it's a sales job, and in sales, when your customer isn't buying, you can't just continue to blame the customer. at some point you have to look at your sales presentation. USAT has tried to punish our customer base by giving penalties out with vigor -- penalties sometimes exceeding 25% of the entire field. the notion was that a couple of harsh years would whip our sport's populace into line. it didn't happen. so now what do we try?

personally, i feel that allowing the officials to exercise a little on-the-road education can't hurt. otherwise, i and other riders have to do that job, which i don't mind doing, i just wish i was doing it WITH the officials who are out on the course, not INSTEAD of them.

i'd be much obliged if those in the officials community would care to comment. i know a variety of them read slowtwitch. i don't want to hassle them, because they do a fabulous job. it's just that there has been this doctrine, and it's been the doctrine for a good long while, and my question is, "is there room for an adjustment in this doctrine?" other sports regularly look at the way the officiating is implemented, and perhaps there's a tweaking of how it's done in triathlon that might make for a worthwhile discussion.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,

I am not sure of where the exactly the Muteness of the officials started, but it might possibly have been the 1993 IMH race.

After swimming a 1:00 flat swim split I hooked up with large group of athletes that went on to finish the bike around the six hour mark ie cycling in the 4:50 to 5:00 split range. It was like the Tour de France as we hurtled along to Hawi. Numerous officials motorcycles pulled up alongside and tryed to break things up proactivly. There was a significant amount of abusive language hurled back at the race offcials much of which is to profane for printing here.

If I was an offcial and a volunteer one at that, I would be saying. "Who needs this?" I can see why offcials would, A) Unfortunatly for the sport, NOT want to be involved at all and B) If they do stay involved, operate by stealth, so as to avoid the abuse.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Anybody who shows such poor sportsmanship and lack of class should be banned from competion in said event, it's as simple as that. The officials should have the authority to do their job, and they shouldn't fear abuse nor tolerate it.

---------------------------------------------------------

"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Jack in Mi] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. Abusive behavior towards other athletes, and especially officials should not be tolerated. It's really depressing how many a-holes there are in the world.
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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maybe it is time for tiered structure of races... not necessarily based on distance (although that is worth some thought) but based on either experience or attending a certification seminar so as to not be in the rookie heat or race.
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Re: One small part of the solution... [M.S.kansan] [ In reply to ]
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IMO the people who can not seem to ride on the right are the same ones you find driving in the left lane on the highway and walking/riding 3 abreast on a multi-use trail. They are either clueless about their surroundings or don't care. Either way they are a pain. IMO these people need to be pulled over during races and made to read a card which states "I will stay to the right unless passing". In the UK of course card would read "I will stay to the left unless passing"
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm guilty of the above.

I raced the Vineman 1/2 last year. Riding borrowed wheels with tubulars I was petrified of flatting. Since I didn't know how to change a tubular, I didn't bother taking one. I just prayed and rode a bit out into the lane to stay out of the road debris that accumulates right of the white line.

I was only passed by one rider the whole way. (It's not that my bike is that strong, I just swim slow! My AG was also one of the last waves, so I did a lot of "catch up" on the bike) I was well aware of all around me and never got in anyones path.

Afterwards I was shocked to see a 4 minute penalty for "position". Not knowing what it was, I asked the ref. He explained it was due to riding too far left in the lane. Even though I never blocked anybody, and there were no riders around me, I was caught riding too far left of the line. I was ticked, but I was wrong and I accepted it. (As I thought back, I remember seeing the ref on the motorcycle. I didn't know at the time that he was the ref. I just smiled and waved.)

I was ignorant to the fact that I was breaking the rules. He reminded me that at the pre-race meeting they said, "stay right except to pass" but it just didn't register that this means "even if you're alone on an open stretch". I learned.

I guess my point is...I agree, a little verbal warning out on the course would have really gone a long way.
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Rick Murray] [ In reply to ]
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>>I raced the Vineman 1/2 last year. Riding borrowed wheels with tubulars I was petrified of flatting. Since I didn't know how to change a tubular, I didn't bother taking one. I just prayed and rode a bit out into the lane to stay out of the road debris that accumulates right of the white line.<<

I'm slayed. WHY would you even consider this? Much like many (but not all) of the newbies who come ride with us who have no clue how to change a tire (clincher or tubular). One ride, a gal shows up with an already flat tire expecting us to change it. She got a quick lesson on how to do it yourself. Another guy shows up on a rented bike without any equipment (tubes, irons, anything). Of course, he flatted, but at least it was near a bike shop.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Numerous officials motorcycles pulled up alongside and tryed to break things up proactivly. There was a significant amount of abusive language hurled back at the race offcials much of which is to profane for printing here.

Gee, in swimming you can get DQ'd for doing the wrong thing even if you are the slowest in the heat. In every other sport I've seen a player gets a foul or thrownout for things like that. Seems to me the officials should just DQ anyone who give them lip - that's the only way to get their attention it seems. Maybe have signs every few miles saying "stay to the right, dont draft etc" At least that might make them feel a bit more guilty. BTW. shouldn't a person who had to qualify for the event in the first place know what the rules are? No excuse - just get rid of them.



"My strategy is to start out slow and then peter-out altogether" Walt Stack
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Re: One small part of the solution... [TRI] [ In reply to ]
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"people who can not seem to ride on the right are the same ones you find driving in the left lane on the highway..."

Ahh yes, my biggest pet peeve. These are the same morons that become indignant when you pass on the right. Well, if you stayed to the right (which is the law in many states) it would be impossible for me to pass on the right. Driving slow in the left lane gives me no options. I actually know a few people who have been ticketed for sitting in the left lane. They still don't understand why. I digress...

Some people just don't get it. I think TriBaby is dead on that way too many people are incapable of thinking of anyone other than themself. Oh how I wish the Golden Rule ruled.
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Re: One small part of the solution... [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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I was offered a chance to borrow some sweet race wheels the week before the event. I also put new tires on them (as a thank you to the guy loaning them) to reduce the risk. With new tires and a little luck I figured the odds were with me. I was looking to finish near the top in AG, so flatting would have ruined my plan regardless. And what the heck, a little risk keeps life exciting!

FWIW, my risk taking put no burden on any other participants. (other than possibly needing a sag) I'm extremely competent on bike maintenance. I own numerous bikes and do 100% of the maintenance and rebuilding of them. (On group rides I'm usually the one assisting others.)

-Newbie
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Re: One small part of the solution... [C2KRider] [ In reply to ]
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Eventhough it was only 10 years ago, that was still the early days for the sport of triathlon. At least in terms of cracking down on things such as drafting at big races such as IMH.

The situation was comical, because it involved a number of top ranking age-group men and some pro-women who shall remain nameless.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Disqualified.


Imagine the same situation Slowman described only at 8-10 mph faster, that's when it gets really scary.


Change the rules to allow a first infraction disqualification for the worst offenders. It'll piss some people off, ruin some legitimate racer's racers. The bitch and moan squad will be out in full force.

When 15% of the field at a big race gets disqualified... then people will take notice.
Last edited by: Zinc: May 7, 03 12:26
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Re: One small part of the solution... [C2KRider] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Maybe have signs every few miles saying "stay to the right, dont draft etc" At least that might make them feel a bit more guilty.


Ya know, corny as it sounds, this actually sounds like a really good idea!! It might be a hassle for race directors to have to plant a bunch of signs all over the bike course and pick 'em up afterward, but I think it might actually do some good! It would at least give the rest of us more clout when we holler at the numbskulls to move the heck over. Although with the truly obstinate and belligerent out there, I'm sure it would still have no effect. But hitting them with this message in the middle of the course might actually sink in a little more.

I think the sign should also say, "It's the rules, stupid!" (the "stupid" could be optional, I guess....)

TriBaby
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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One of the reasons why I do not enjoy Gulfcoast as much as I used to. I am in one of the last waves, and I fly on the bike. I spend the first half of the race yelling, "On your left! On your left! Get out of the %$^&#*@% way!"

I was stuck behind some lady putting makeup on during our morning commute. I could not get around her, she was all over the place and driving very slowly and eratically. If somebody told her that she should not do that, she would tell them to do something that may be impossible.

I have made that pass on the right, and I have done it in front of an official. If they are over that yellow line, or on it, and are cycling slower than I am, they are out of position and safety dictates I pass how I can.

Officials need to start calling this stuff on the course. If the racer does not follow the directions, they should record the infraction and move off. Then two minutes later, repeat. They should do the same for packs, recording all the numbers and then coming back a few minutes later to do it all over again. Make sure the racers know they are getting penalties each time. (Get rid of that stand-down crap, just wave a yellow card at them and be gone.)

Better yet, mount tennis ball cannons on the back of the motorcycles. If cyclists do not move over, shoot them. Repeatedy.

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"i was, i guess, struck by the fact that it was MY job to gently remind everyone on the course to ride on the right unless passing, while the official was entirely mute. "

This year at Powerman AL I was cursed when saying "on your left" to a woman that was riding on the centerline with no other riders nearby. I was coming up behind her at the bottom of a downhill at almost 40 mph and she didn't have any desire to move over. The guy she was riding with (and by "with" I mean they were trading off who was doing the pulling) sprinted up next to me and yelled that she couldn't move over because there were slow riders over there, then he called me some choice names and dropped back to her. She wasn't passing anyone at the time, there was no other rider within 200m of us. They caught me on the next uphill just to recreate the entire scene again, only this time "on your left" was said with a little more vigor by me. Of course this helped motivate me to ride a little harder and not get caught on the next uphill. Luckily I didn't see them again for the rest of the day.

My point is that having other racers trying to get this point across does not work, the offenders just assume you're being an a$$hole who is making a point that you are riding faster and that there is nothing that says they HAVE to ride right. I think the only way this point will be taken is by warnings/statements from officials and penalties. I also like the idea of signs posted on the race course reminding people to ride right/pass left, just something more official appearing than other racers.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Zinc] [ In reply to ]
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"When 15% of the field at a big race gets disqualified... then people will take notice."

i wish that were true. USAT assumed that would be true and tried it. i've been at races where double that amount were penalized. but it still doesn't sink in, mostly because there is a steady stream of new athletes coming in. that's a good problem to have, and there ought to be a better way of managing the problem. i mean REALLY a better way, not just circle jerking on this forum, but a real remedy.

perhaps it's a new way the officials look at the problem. perhaps it's at the club level, maybe USAT can try to work with the clubs to educate their people better. maybe it's at registration, where USAT strongly urges a "station" at registration, just like chip activation, or t-shirt pick-up, that is specific to teaching at least CERTAIN rules. maybe not everyone will come to a pre-race meeting, but everyone must come to registration.

maybe it's at the race start. we were all sitting around for 5 minutes between waves, hoping no one could tell we were peeing in our wetsuits. why not have a USAT ref giving a few pre-race tips right there, before every wave leaves? you can't escape hearing that sermon, can you?

there are MANY ways this can be tackled. it just takes somebody in authority actually making an affirmative decision to change the way it's been done in the past.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: 15%... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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If 15% of the field was penalized/DQ'd consistantly then the message would get across, even to the newbies. If it is not consistant, then it will never work. Consider the following analogy, I think it applies very well.

When training your dog, you can get them to obey just about any rule that you consistantly enforce. If you selectively enforce a rule, your dog only gets confused and eventually belligerant.
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The person who said "make people stop and read a cardsaing I will not .....etc" has a good point.

To me its dealing with your kids:
1. You need to explain the rule;
2.You need to explain why the rule exists;
3. You need consequenses (ie stand down)
4. You need to apply the rule consistently (to avoid the "but he does it" response). If everyone does it maybe you have no choice but to join the masses.

It make no sense for the officials not to be able to give a warning. If we have inflexable rules like this that don't make sence it shows the sport may be heading in the wrong direction
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"we were all sitting around for 5 minutes between waves, hoping no one could tell we were peeing in our wetsuits."

Best line I ever read ...

Dre' (who was petrified and couldn't even pee)
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe start with the race entry. For online entries include a short multichoice quiz of the basic race rules. Competitors can’t complete their entry until they achieve a 100% pass. This would highlight to the novice competitors the race rules from day one. Then you reinforce this in the race info, at the race briefing, registration and on the course.
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"i mean REALLY a better way, not just circle jerking on this forum, but a real remedy"

Fantastic. I just spit up laughing all over my computer...
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Re: Bingo! .... it's about educating the newbie [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I posted a simular suggestion on another board to see the response... surprisingly, the topic got off subject real fast... became a bit*h session about TNT'ers (i.e., mass blocker/drafters).

At any rate, what needs to be done (IMHO) is put the race official BACK into the race. By that, I mean they should issue verbal warnings at the time that the infractions are being incurred. There was a time when USAT officials were allowed/required to issue warnings before issuing a penalty. Where did that go? I can not think of a better time to bring the warning of an infraction back into the sport. It would be a very useful training tool. More Importantly, it would add POSITIVE reinforcement to the rules. Warnings would take the emphasis away from penalty as the correcting measure and places it into education as the correcting measure.

This blocking and drafting issue is more than just an unfair advantage. It is a liability issue...It is a safety issue. It should be treated as such. It's not so much about finishing faster because of drafting and blocking since so many new triathletes are not there for speed... they are there just to finish. Time penalties are not an issue. They are there to have fun (that's a good thing). Much like riding next to your friend is fun... it's also compromises safety.

I'm for bringing back the "warning notices" during the race by race officials (And, it should be used aggressively). That's my solution... maybe someone else has a better idea...for me, I'm with Dan.

FWIW Joe Moya
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Re: Bingo! .... it's about educating the newbie [Joe M] [ In reply to ]
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verbal warnings just don't work IMHO.

For example, I come up on a racer (as an official) and see them in a blocking position. I give them a warning and they move over. I have the whole bike portion to patrol and not just this one guy/gal to police so I am off and up the road to observe the next group. Then the official that is roving behind me comes up on this same yahoo and he/she is back out in the middle of the road. He gets another warning, that official doesn't know that this particular racer has already recieved one, two, maybe three warnings already.

At most races, there are pre race meeting where the rules are discussed. At most races there are handouts in the race packet discussing the major rules that are commonly violated. Does this work, apparently not. What would, I don't know, but on the course education by officials is not the best way to go.

I had one high ranking official tell me once the best way is for all of us to make it socially unacceptable to break the rules. Take a race like Wildflower with 2000 entrants in the LC race. You have maybe 10 officials on motorcycles and out of those 2000 people in the race, how many know the rules well. Probably more than 10!! So who better to do the on course teaching, a thousand or so knowledgeable athletes exerting peer pressure or a handful of officials.

You don't step onto the football field, baseball field or basketball court to play the game without at least knowing the main rules, why should triathlon be any different. The officials don't take the time to explain what clipping is when you get called for it in football, neither do they give you a warning. Ah, Mr. defensive back, if you pull down that wide reciever again before the ball is thrown, we're going to give you a penalty!

I know the system isn't perfect, but I haven't seen a good solution yet either.

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org
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Re: One small part of the solution... [Zinc] [ In reply to ]
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If an infraction causes immediate and serious peril to self or others, it becomes endangerment and is a DQ. Profane or abusive language directed at an official, volunteer, or other compeitor is unsportsmanlike conduct. Also a DQ.

DQing everyone isn't likely to solve things either. It would be better to do more up front preparation to reduce the number of penalties. But how? 4 athletes showed up for the WF LC pre-race meeting. The on site bike shop used 1,000 bar end plugs on Saturday. Open bar ends are a notorious DQ yet hundreds of people showed up with open bar ends and no spare plugs.

To RDs, racers are their customers. They don't like to see them upset by being penalized. They certainly wouldn't take well to a large per cent of their field being DQed. More negative reinforcement will just breed more negative attitudes.

If you feel strongly about certain aspects of the race, let the RD know. If they only feedback that they get is from people who are unhappy with penalties then they might adopt the attitude that rules enforcement hurts their race. If people complain about rules being violated and express a desire for stricter enforcement, then chances are they'll pay more attention to that area. Hopefully in the form of up front action to raise awareness of the rules and reduce penalties by reducing violations.



Larry
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