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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [IT] [ In reply to ]
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I have had this happen. My mistake was embarrassing. When installing the cassette I put one ring on backwards. It happens...double check
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [SteveCoz] [ In reply to ]
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How would you put a cassette cog on backwards?
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
How would you put a cassette cog on backwards?

If you mistakenly flip over one of the rings it does not line up perfectly and the spacing between rings is slightly off....it
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [SteveCoz] [ In reply to ]
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SteveCoz wrote:
jimatbeyond wrote:
How would you put a cassette cog on backwards?


If you mistakenly flip over one of the rings it does not line up perfectly and the spacing between rings is slightly off....it

This is not possible on Shimano cassettes. The splines are arranged so that the cogs can only go on the correct way. You can, however, forget (or add an extra) a spacer if you try hard enough.
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [ironmanatee] [ In reply to ]
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ironmanatee wrote:
Interested to hear how this went. I have a brand new cassette (12-27, 10 speed) and brand new chain on my Neo, and I have one gear in the middle, 5th up from the smallest, that clicks. The others are butter smooth. Funny thing is if I shift into and out of the nuisance gear a couple times, I can usually get it to shut up, but most of the time on the first shift into the gear it clicks. I can adjust the r/d tension to get rid of it, but it messes up the rest of the shifing. Annoying. Haven't looked at B adjustment screw yet.

I had a similar issue with my Neo. It turned out that the cassette had a slight amount of 'play' on the free hub body. I took of the cassette, cleaned it up, tightened it back down and haven't had an issue since.
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [beston] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, but my cassette has done it from the start. Cassette and chain were brand new when I got my Neo just over 2 weeks ago. Removed the bike and retightened the cassette too. Haven't messed with the B screw yet. As I mentioned above, if I shift into and out of the troublesome gear a couple times, I can usually get it to run without clicking.

I wanna go fast!
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [SteveCoz] [ In reply to ]
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SteveCoz wrote:
I have had this happen. My mistake was embarrassing. When installing the cassette I put one ring on backwards. It happens...double check

You're playing into my conspiracy theories here. I too wondered if the cassette was not put on right at the LBS.

After I play with the B screw and get the hanger checked, I'll have a reputable LBS check the cassette while there.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [IT] [ In reply to ]
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It isn't possible to put a cassette cog on backwards.
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [IT] [ In reply to ]
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If your hanger is bent, then anything that makes the derailleur move forwards or backwards will move your derailleur inwards and outwards as well.
Change front rings, rear derailleur swings to compensate chain difference, pulley moves in or out.
Change rear gears and derailleur moves to take up chain, pulley moves in or out.

Depending on what cluster, chainrings, where it is tuned, length of chain, virtually anything really, the pulleys will move inwards or outwards when they are not supposed to if the hanger is not in the same plane as your back wheel.
Not putting the wheel in fully, same thing, out of plane.
Dropout wear and a hub with a different size endcap mates differently with the frame, out of plane.

You can have one noisy gear, only four that work, skipping chains, whatever.
If the wheel is not in plane with the derailleur, you simply cannot tune it, end of story.
Contrary to what has been said here, electronic is exactly the same as cable.
The electronics does not know it is bent and therefore cannot magically retune the gears to compensate.

If you really did own a hanger aligner and got rid of it, then you simply did not possess the skills to tune a bike.
Once you own one you will appreciate how much use they get and would never think of getting rid of it.
Hell, I keep one in the boot of my car for fixing others bikes so I don't have to listen to mechanical abuse all ride.

For the idiot suggesting reversed cogs, shut up, you haven't got a clue, let alone enough knowledge to help somebody else.
For those suggesting electronic is less sensitive to misalignment, shut up as well, it is exactly the same.
For those saying b tension, shut up as well, the only reason b tension will change alignment is if the hanger is bent and will move the pulley because it swings it forwards or backwards and the derailleur is out of plane.

It's the hanger, simple as that.
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
If your hanger is bent, then anything that makes the derailleur move forwards or backwards will move your derailleur inwards and outwards as well.
Change front rings, rear derailleur swings to compensate chain difference, pulley moves in or out.
Change rear gears and derailleur moves to take up chain, pulley moves in or out.

Depending on what cluster, chainrings, where it is tuned, length of chain, virtually anything really, the pulleys will move inwards or outwards when they are not supposed to if the hanger is not in the same plane as your back wheel.
Not putting the wheel in fully, same thing, out of plane.
Dropout wear and a hub with a different size endcap mates differently with the frame, out of plane.

You can have one noisy gear, only four that work, skipping chains, whatever.
If the wheel is not in plane with the derailleur, you simply cannot tune it, end of story.
Contrary to what has been said here, electronic is exactly the same as cable.
The electronics does not know it is bent and therefore cannot magically retune the gears to compensate.

If you really did own a hanger aligner and got rid of it, then you simply did not possess the skills to tune a bike.
Once you own one you will appreciate how much use they get and would never think of getting rid of it.
Hell, I keep one in the boot of my car for fixing others bikes so I don't have to listen to mechanical abuse all ride.

For the idiot suggesting reversed cogs, shut up, you haven't got a clue, let alone enough knowledge to help somebody else.
For those suggesting electronic is less sensitive to misalignment, shut up as well, it is exactly the same.
For those saying b tension, shut up as well, the only reason b tension will change alignment is if the hanger is bent and will move the pulley because it swings it forwards or backwards and the derailleur is out of plane.

It's the hanger, simple as that.

You are probably right and some or most of the rest of us are probably wrong in this situation.

Having the Park Tool was handy. Wish I had it back. Maybe I'll get another one. So then I could take off the rear derailleur and check or tweak the hanger in order to find out if that was or wasn't the problem or only part of problem after all. As you put it so well, there is a lot that can impact alignment so we might as well start with the hanger and then go from there.

Thank you for your help and admonition to the rest of us.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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What a pleasant response. I'm sure you'll persuade lots of people of your evident expertise with that tone.

While the earlier poster could well have been mistaken about reversing the cogs, this is something that has certainly been possible to do, albeit not with commonly available modern parts. Shimano Uniglide and Campag 8 (pre-exa) were reversible and those hubs run and run. I finally upgraded my 'ride to work' bike from Campagnolo 8 speed last year, as replacement cassettes were a pain to find. 9 speed seems somewhat decadent ;-) You could flip those cogs fine, as long as you flipped them all at once. Flipping just one tended to lead to sub-optimal results given the differential wear profiles.

I'm sure someone on here can help with my memory but there were also some non-series cassettes available until fairly recently which had effectively Uniglide profile narrow splines, without the wide-narrow combo from modern Hyperglide. Similar to a lot of DIY singlespeed sprockets. As you can imagine, they didn't contact the freehub body very well when used on modern hubs but they came as OEM equipment on a fair few entry level road and hybrid bikes with steel freehub bodies. As long as they were torqued rather tight they kept working until well after the other bits of the bike generally broke. I thought they were Miche but now I don't think it was. Maybe Ambrosio or someone like that? I always assumed it was a patent workaround to avoid paying a licensing fee to Shimano or something like that but I never looked into it in detail.
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
For those suggesting electronic is less sensitive to misalignment, shut up as well, it is exactly the same.

Yeah, we can agree to disagree on this point. Not the same. Electronic is less sensitive to misalignment because of the way it "over shifts" when switching gears.

A very common mis-alignment symptom with mechanical is that it won't always go to a lower cog when requested. It basically "hangs" in a noisy state almost dropping to the smaller cog (and sometimes it will eventually drop after a couple seconds). With electronic, it will typically make that jump to the smaller cog because Di2 over shifts past the smaller cog (which forces a quick shift) and then quickly comes back to alignment. You have to be really out of whack before electronic starts missing shifts completely.

The over shift effect is hard to notice on the RD because it's a very small, quick movement, but it's there. On the FD, it's much more obvious because they slow it down. When shifting to the big ring, you will often hear chain rub on the FD for about a second (during the over-shift) before it moves back to the correct alignment.

Electronic shifting is not just replicating what happens with a cable-activated shifting. There are things going on that make electronic shifting quicker and more reliable. A by-product of this is that it's more tolerant of being out of adjustment.
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [ironmanatee] [ In reply to ]
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ironmanatee wrote:
Interested to hear how this went. I have a brand new cassette (12-27, 10 speed) and brand new chain on my Neo, and I have one gear in the middle, 5th up from the smallest, that clicks. The others are butter smooth. Funny thing is if I shift into and out of the nuisance gear a couple times, I can usually get it to shut up, but most of the time on the first shift into the gear it clicks. I can adjust the r/d tension to get rid of it, but it messes up the rest of the shifing. Annoying. Haven't looked at B adjustment screw yet.


Adjusting the B screw worked.

I was going from a 11-28 down to 12-25 cassette. At first, I went the wrong direction by screwing the B screw OUT. That made things worse. Then I screwed it IN and by in, I mean nearly all the way in. That took care of the clicking in that one gear in the middle of the cassette.

It makes so much sense. Smaller cassette means bring the pulley closer in and screwing the B screw in helps close the gap. A larger cassette swap means that I would need to back the screw OUT to give it more space between cassette and pulley.

My rear derailleur is the small pulley cage with a range of 23-28 large cog in the cassette. I'll just have to remember that when I swap a cassette, to adjust the B screw too.

Let me know if this works for you.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [IT] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the update and taking the time to explain.

I wanna go fast!
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [bluto] [ In reply to ]
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bluto wrote:
lyrrad wrote:

For those suggesting electronic is less sensitive to misalignment, shut up as well, it is exactly the same.


Yeah, we can agree to disagree on this point. Not the same. Electronic is less sensitive to misalignment because of the way it "over shifts" when switching gears.

A very common mis-alignment symptom with mechanical is that it won't always go to a lower cog when requested. It basically "hangs" in a noisy state almost dropping to the smaller cog (and sometimes it will eventually drop after a couple seconds). With electronic, it will typically make that jump to the smaller cog because Di2 over shifts past the smaller cog (which forces a quick shift) and then quickly comes back to alignment. You have to be really out of whack before electronic starts missing shifts completely.

The over shift effect is hard to notice on the RD because it's a very small, quick movement, but it's there. On the FD, it's much more obvious because they slow it down. When shifting to the big ring, you will often hear chain rub on the FD for about a second (during the over-shift) before it moves back to the correct alignment.

Electronic shifting is not just replicating what happens with a cable-activated shifting. There are things going on that make electronic shifting quicker and more reliable. A by-product of this is that it's more tolerant of being out of adjustment.

Mechanical overshifts as well, electronic just mimics it.
Not only does mechanical overshift, but you have control over how much it overshifts by.
Electronic does not have cable drag, nor does a well maintained mechanical setup.
In that regard only is electronic less sensitive to poor maintenance.

What the OP here was experiencing was resonance.
This is not misalignment and had he clarified that, then B tension would have been the answer.
The easy way to check for this is to simply lightly touch the derailleur, this will dampen the noise, if it goes quiet, it is resonance and moving it either further away or closer may fix it.
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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Hey OP did you get it fixed and what was it?
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [pedal-boy] [ In reply to ]
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pedal-boy wrote:
Hey OP did you get it fixed and what was it?

Adjusting the B screw worked.

I was going from a 11-28 down to 12-25 cassette. At first, I went the wrong direction by screwing the B screw OUT. That made things worse. Then I screwed it IN and by in, I mean nearly all the way in. That took care of the clicking in that one gear in the middle of the cassette.

It makes so much sense. Smaller cassette means bring the pulley closer in and screwing the B screw in helps close the gap. A larger cassette swap means that I would need to back the screw OUT to give it more space between cassette and pulley.

My rear derailleur is the small pulley cage with a range of 23-28 large cog in the cassette. I'll just have to remember that when I swap a cassette, to adjust the B screw too.

PS Dang. I went ahead and bought a hanger tool though I don't need one now. Straightening the hanger is a great place to start correction; however, if you don't abuse your bike the hanger generally stays straight.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [IT] [ In reply to ]
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IT wrote:
pedal-boy wrote:
Hey OP did you get it fixed and what was it?


Adjusting the B screw worked.

I was going from a 11-28 down to 12-25 cassette. At first, I went the wrong direction by screwing the B screw OUT. That made things worse. Then I screwed it IN and by in, I mean nearly all the way in. That took care of the clicking in that one gear in the middle of the cassette.

It makes so much sense. Smaller cassette means bring the pulley closer in and screwing the B screw in helps close the gap. A larger cassette swap means that I would need to back the screw OUT to give it more space between cassette and pulley.

My rear derailleur is the small pulley cage with a range of 23-28 large cog in the cassette. I'll just have to remember that when I swap a cassette, to adjust the B screw too.

PS Dang. I went ahead and bought a hanger tool though I don't need one now. Straightening the hanger is a great place to start correction; however, if you don't abuse your bike the hanger generally stays straight.

Are you sure about that? Tightening the B screw pushes the RD away from the dropout and increases the distance between the top pulley and the cassette cogs. You seem to say the opposite happened for you, or am I misreading what you're saying?
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Re: One Di2 rear cassette cog out of sync - going crazy here [Bdaghisallo] [ In reply to ]
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Bdaghisallo wrote:
IT wrote:
pedal-boy wrote:
Hey OP did you get it fixed and what was it?


Adjusting the B screw worked.

I was going from a 11-28 down to 12-25 cassette. At first, I went the wrong direction by screwing the B screw OUT. That made things worse. Then I screwed it IN and by in, I mean nearly all the way in. That took care of the clicking in that one gear in the middle of the cassette.

It makes so much sense. Smaller cassette means bring the pulley closer in and screwing the B screw in helps close the gap. A larger cassette swap means that I would need to back the screw OUT to give it more space between cassette and pulley.

My rear derailleur is the small pulley cage with a range of 23-28 large cog in the cassette. I'll just have to remember that when I swap a cassette, to adjust the B screw too.

PS Dang. I went ahead and bought a hanger tool though I don't need one now. Straightening the hanger is a great place to start correction; however, if you don't abuse your bike the hanger generally stays straight.


Are you sure about that? Tightening the B screw pushes the RD away from the dropout and increases the distance between the top pulley and the cassette cogs. You seem to say the opposite happened for you, or am I misreading what you're saying?

Screwing the B screw IN worked after i moved from the 11-28 to the 12-25.

Before I screwed it IN, I tried by screwing that B screw OUT and the problem was made worse.

The level of movement is slight. So slight that it might have helped to have something that measured to the mm to determine movement. The movement probably is also somewhat left/right in addition to up and down.

Before this happened and the correction worked, I generally thought the B screw was superfluous.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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