weakandpuny - or should screen name be tenaciousandpersistent? That was a great report. I'm gonna swim hats from fitter to coach here for a sec and say this: everything we triathletes do is straight forward and back (in the sagittal plane), you can be ready to go under 10 at IM and have hip stabilizers that are shriveled up pieces of bacon. It's a common thing for us. The number one strength exercise that triathlete should do are hip stabilizers to keep the glute med and abductors healthy and strong. Weather that's a side laying leg lift (think: Jane Fonda) or a clam or monster water with a band at ankle or one legged squats - something to keep those hips strong so that the IT band doesn't get overloaded.

Congrats on nailing that time even though it was a bitch to get there. And, yeah, water quality between Tempe and SR is HUGE!!!

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Thanks Coach. I have embarked on a strength / core routine since IMAZ. I'll keep it up until my training volume gets too high prior to IMSR 2020. I can only assume my abdominal cramps were due to Tempe Town Cess Pool.

---

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

SasquatchTri,
It's possible that your fitter was just focused on positioning your current bike and wasn't too worried about a future purchase and, therefore, didn't see the need to write down the Pad Y and Pad X. I get it, it happens. Speaking those terms of art: Stack and Reach address a very specific place on a bike frame. When we discuss the location of the arm pads we're using same cartesian coordinate system that led us to Stack and Reach (imaging a Y and X axis where zero/zero is in the center of the bottom bracket and the Y axis extends straight up and goes right past the nose of your saddle. Then an X axis that extends level our of the center of the BB towards the axle of your front wheel) but now we're measuring to the top of the pad and the back of the pad. I'm not a fan of the terms Pad Stack and Pad Reach because they are too easily confused with Stack and Reach - hence Pad Y and Pad X.

I'm ready to take a stab at predicting your Pad Y and Pad X to prescribe a new QR, but before I do I want to suggest this. If you like your current position, and if you're able - I'd want you to measure the Pad Y and Pad X of your current bike. Here's how you'd do it...

• Set the bike on a level floor and lean it up against a wall or cabinets so it's as close to straight up and down as you can get.
• Dangle a plumb line (string with any weight on the end - a spoon for example) off the back of the arm pad so it hangs straight down and then measure from the center of the bottom bracket to that string. This is Pad X.
• Then (this might take two people) put a level through the center of the bottom bracket extending forward towards the front wheel and measure from the top of that level up to the arm pad. This is Pad Y.

Let me know if you can get those two numbers, if not I'll work with the data you've given me.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Nah...we're past all that now. The bikes are built to ride with shorter stems.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

I will certainly give it a go when I have another set of hands. thanks!

Hello Ian,

I was hoping you could advise me as I look at a PR six. I have not yet been fitted and don't currently have a tri bike, so I have moved to option 3.

Height 5'11
Inseam 34"
Saddle Height - I found a few different calculation methods. Not sure which is best. My road bike is at home right now.

The QR size chart puts me on a 54cm. I was wondering if I could fit on a 52cm PR six. There are no dealers in my area.

Thank you,
Bob

Bob,
Here's what I'm gonna do - I'm not nuts about it - but it's an action I can take now. I'd MUCH rather have your road bike seat height but I'll do what I can with the info you've provided thus far...I think your Pad Y is ~632 and your Pad X is ~485. I'm okay with these numbers but I'm not enthralled with these numbers because there's just a bit too much noise in the process. Because of this I want to be sure I pick a size bike and front end config that allows for adjustment fore/aft/up/down in terms of the bars (as example - you can fit on a 48 but you are maxed out on both the Pad Y and Pad X - no where to go if you have to go higher or longer).

QR RPsix: it's a 52cm and let's stop right there for a sec. You're 5'11" what the hell could you possibly be doing on a 52cm bike. 52cm bikes are for Oompa Loompas! Well, let me 'splain it. QR sizes this bike by frame stack. The stack of this frame is 52cm. Which would be genius if not for the decades of programming that we've all had in matching body height to seat tube length. So let it go and, if it makes you feel better pretend I said "Medium". Okay, it's a 52cm bike with a 90mm stem, the stem-bar clamp in the mid position, 25mm of spacer, arm pad in the rear hole with rearward bracket orientation. You could fit on a 54 but 632 is near the bottom of that rage on Pad Y.

On the 52 you are almost dead center with my guess of height 632: you could go up as much as 60mm from that number or as low as 85mm from that number. In regards to the cockpit length: you could go up to 45mm longer or 80mm shorter - all on that bike, so there's room to move.

All this is great and you can shop with confidence but really, where do live 'cause I'd love to direct you to a great fitter if I have one in your area.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian,
Thank you for the quick response. I am home now. What is the best way to determine the saddle height of the road bike?

I live in Syracuse, NY and I plan on getting a bike fit done. I found a good deal on a 52cm PR six and I don't want to wait too long. That being said, I want to make sure it is the most optimal size for me. I don't have a problem with the number of the bike. After reading an article by Dan Empfield where he said he was 6'2" and riding a 54cm, I got to wondering.

Let me know about the best way to measure saddle height and I will get that info back to you.

And also if there are any fitters you would recommend in my area.

Thanks,
Bob

Hi Ian,

I purchased a QR PR6 Disc size 56 a few months ago. I had a second Retul fit done and switched to 165mm crank from 172.5mm crank per discussion with bike fitter. My fitter said it would take some time to get used to the my position and it certainly has.

I had shoulder discomfort (mostly top of shoulder) in the position almost immediately when going to aero on my first rides in the position. Over the past two months I have gotten more comfortable and can do a 3 hour ride mostly in aero as long as I change how I place my arms on the cups and hands on the aero bars. I notice the most discomfort during the first 30 minutes of the ride then it seems my shoulders loosen and I feel more comfortable. During recovery rides (I do them super easy around 100w when my ftp is 300w) I have the most discomfort in aero which seems odd to me.

Any thoughts on ways to ease the pressure on my shoulder? Should I just give it more time? Experiment with different arm pad and aerobar angles? Strength training exercises? I do 2-3 hours of gym training a week but perhaps I'm not working the correct muscles. I can send photos if you want.

Thanks

EricP,
When you switched from 172.5 to 165s the saddle should have gone up 7.5mm. The handle bars would need to be raised 7.5mm too to hold the same arm pad elevation (aka, drop) but with shorter cranks the idea might be that you can handle more drop. Can you recall what changes were made to the fit after the 165s were installed?

My immediate thoughts to reducing your shoulder pain would include all of these tests:

1. wider arm cups
2. aerobar tilt (up)
3. longer cockpit

You can post pics here if you want and I'll take a peek, but they'd have to fit this criteria: set the bike on a trainer and get it level. Dress in tight fitting duds so I can see body angles. Do a warm up and then ride at or near your 40k race pace effort for just a bit and shoot a pic of you at profile and then another head-on.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian,
I am in the Syracuse, NY area. Wondering if you have any fitters near me.

When you say I can shop with confidence, you mean for the 52cm PRsix, right? With the limited information I provided and your estimations on stack and reach, it sounds like it would allow room for adjustments.

Thanks again,
Bob

Hi ian heres my details.

6ft 3
Saddle height 849
Arm pad stack bb 726
Frame stack 596
Frame reach 448
There is other numbers there if you need them thanks.

Bob, I was dragging my feet on a response because I reached out to several fitters in your area hoping one might live up to my spec's (I'm a fit snob). Normally when anybody in New York says "who's a good fitter in my area" I default to one of the best fitters on the planet; Jonathan Blyer at ACME in Brooklyn - but Brooklyn while in the same state - you know.

Yes, confident in the 52cm.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hey seanmcl,

I think you may have sent this to me rather than Ian. You may want to repost.

Ian,

Thanks for taking the time to look into this. And yes, Brooklyn is a haul.

I have a bike fit scheduled at Syracuse Bicycle on Jan. 3rd. I think I am going to order the 52cm and we’ll see how it goes.

Thanks for the advice and I will let you know how it turns out.

Bob

Bob, yes, please keep me posted.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian

I am looking at the PR four! Attached is a fit on a cervelo p2, I felt as though i was a little to upright. Could you advise on frame size, I thinking a 56? Sorry I dont know my Pad x Pad y.

Bazza172,

This will be a good test for me. I can attempt to tease our your Pad Y and Pad X from some of the numbers you provided but I'd like some back up. Do you still have the old bike and could you take two measurements off of that for me?

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian, sorry to make your life more difficult but I’ve just sold the old bike. I am 6ft 1 and have an inseam of 33in If that helps a little more

Bazza172,
No worries, that's why I'm here.
I took all your numbers and your comment about feeling too upright and I suspect your Pad Y should be somewhere around 650mm and your Pad X to be nearabouts 441 (to rear of pad)

For the Quintana Roo PRfour (this would be the same for the PRfive) the best option would be a 54cm bike with the 90mm stem in the -17deg configuration, zero aerobar armrest risers, 20mm of spacer under the stem, and armrests with -55mm of offset (3 holes fwd of back most position or 2 back of middle). You could also fit on a 52 but I like the 54 better as you're in the "middle" of that bike and it gives you more room to adjust to perfection.

Get back me of you have more questions/comments.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian, thank so much for your help!!

Hi Ian- Interested if you could help me out. I have not had a professional bike fit in quite some time, but am looking at a new QR PR6 or PR 5.

Could you spit out your magic numbers for me based on the following, please:

Height: 6'1 (184.5 cm)
Inseam: 34" (86.3 cm)
Saddle Height: 830 mm (83 cm).

Thanks!

Bump.

dlsieck,
Thanks for the bump and the patience. Super long legs for 6'1" - I'm your height and at 33in inseam, I can nearly relate.
I think your Pad Y is ~665 and your Pad X is ~500.

If you got the PRsix there are two ways to go:
1) Get the 54 with the 110 stem, clamp set mid, 35mm of pedestal and arm rest hole mid-rear, bracket oriented rearward.
2) Get the 56 with the 90mm stem, clamp set low, 25mm of pedestal and arm rest hole middle, bracket oriented forward.
You could also fit on a 52 and 58 but you're painted into a corner on both with no room to move. If I had to pick between the 54 & 56 I'd get the 56 only because I like my bullhorns/brakes in closer elevation to my aero position - in this case it's only 10mm but still.

If you got the PRfive, the best way to go is the 56cm with the 90mm stem set up in the -17deg position, 10mm of spacer under stem and 5mm of pedestal, and arm rests off-set -1.

Get back to me if you have questions.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

hi ian,

im working back and forth between several bikes for the new season and going forward. im currently on a "long and low" bike and i dont want to move away from that.

Stack to middle of a 12 degree tilted pad is 625
reach to back of said pad is 495
BB to seat center is 750.

the new QR PRSix 2 is very alluring due to the integrated hydration. im looking at that, a shiv disc, and a cervelo P5D. i was set on the shiv but looking at the wheelbase i have ruled the bike out pretty much.

per the x/y fit, i would be fit right in the middle of the x/y possibility on a 52, however looking at bike dimensions i would be able to do a 54, i would be slammed (one 5mm spacer) but it would get me a bike thats very very close to the standover / wheelbase of what im on now.

thanks in advance for the assistance!

---

80/20 Endurance Ambassador