Ian,

Thanks for the VERY detailed respose! I can't thank you enough. But I'm a bit confused......I had dissected my numbers myself and would have put muself on a 52cm with either the PR5 or PR6, I'm a numbers nerd but no pro hence I go see the best fitter I can find. My fitter just threw me a curveball and sent me over an email stating he liked the idea of a 54cm PR5 with a 90mm stem and minimal spacers below stem and 20mm pedestal under pads (the most I am personally comfortable with). I am certainly NOT discounting anyones opinion, I am trying to be as informed as I possibly can to make the best decision I can for myself. Does your opinion change at all if I tell you that I made a mistake and one I forgot to add the 20mm (Measured with 100mm stem when it should have been 1200mm stem. Yes that how poor The Plasma fit me) and specified that my 426mm Pad reach was to the back of the bars and should actually have read 446 and my mid pad reach was 488mm? Does this look a little more normal morphology? HA! And thank you very much for the suggestion of the 155mm Crankset, It was discussed during my fit session. I would have not have thought about asking for it at point of purchase through QR!

So it should actually read

Pad Stack 659
Pad reach 446
Pad reach mid pad 488
Saddle Height 767
Saddle Setback 11
Saddle to Pad Drop 155
Saddle to Pad Reach 483
Grip reach 742
Grip drop 82
Grip angle 48
Arm pad to grip 347
BB to Grip 773
Arm pad Drop -100

 

mpkellyjunior,


I know from context that you mean a 120mm stem and not a 1,200mm stem. This is how the Mars Rover crashed into the surface of that planet :) No, seriously, the stem length didn't/dosen't really matter to me. Here's the evidence I'm working with in your post: you had a fit done, it's a fit that you believe in, and from that fit you know that your Pad Stack is 659 and your Pad Reach is 426. If I've got Pad Y and Pad X from a good fit - that's the best data we can have and we should be confident moving forward with that. And, by the way, you didn't specify that the 426 was to the back of the pad, but I knew because that number's too short to be to center of pad. It does matter a great deal if you're talking about the PRsix or the PRfive as they are complete different bikes due to the super front end on the PRsix.

But.....now that we know that your real Pad Reach is 446 and we know you're focusing on the PRfive..

It's common that a person can fit on 2 different sizes of bike - sometimes 3 or even 4. In those extreme cases we can typically toss the outliers and narrow it down, but we often find ourselves in a place where two different frame sizes can work and work well. And then you can commit to a size of bike (a 54 for example) and then have two, three different ways to get your pads pretty darn close to where you need 'em on that size bike. It's RARE that we can hit your exact number and that's okay because 1 or 2 or 3mm off is acceptable.

For example this set up results in Pad Y of 656 & Pad X of 447
Size 52... 90mm stem, -17 degree configuration, 30mm of spacer under stem, 15mm of armrest risers, back of armrests offset -32.5mm

Well, If I math out that set up: a 54 with a 90mm stem in the -17 config with zero spacers under stem and 15mm of pedestal (the max that can be done based on my info here) you'd come out with a Pad Y of 652. That's 8mm off your number and it results in a drop of 108 when you are spec'd with a drop of 100.

If you went a 54cm PRfive with a 90mm stem, in the -17 config with 20mm of spacers below the stem and 10mm of armrest riser you can get a Pad Stack of 661 - which is 1mm off your number. With that Pad Y nailed down now you can choose between a 442 or 450 in Pad Reach. One of those numbers is 4mm shorter than you wanted and one of those numbers is 4mm longer than you wanted. I, as a fitter, would now reflect back on the fit and consider these two questions:
1) Does this athlete (you) require a more precise drop or a more precise cockpit distance?
2) Where were did the elbows of this athlete (you) sit on the pad (or off the pad) in the final position and would it be okay if the cockpit was a bit longer or a bit shorter?

The absolute closest we can get to your numbers (659-446) is 657 and 445 and that's a 54, 90mm stem, -17, 10mm spacer under stem, 15mm spacer under armrests, armrest offset -55mm.

I'm here, get back to me with more questions if/when you have 'em.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian,

I'm back! And thanks for ALL of your help. I ended up with a 54cm PR6 Disc for myself which arrives tomorrow. I'm pretty excited! But now were onto a new rig for my lovely wife. She finished her fit Yesterday, and were now going through the options. She was previously on a 51cm C'Dale slice with 165mm crankset and was feeling crammed. The bike just looked small on her. The last 2 years although still very flexible, she has pretty consistent issues with tight Hip Flexors and Hamstrings.

She's 5'5.5"
Saddle Heigh 722
Reach to Back of Armpad 406
Stack to top of Armpad 619


Again, were trying to keep the number of spacers underneath the stem and pedestals under pads to a minimum. I'm trying to get her to as perfect of fit as possible. Give her every chance for success! Your thoughts?

Thanks!!

mpkellyjunior,
If she was to get a PRsix like yours, and you wanted to minimize spacers... 50cm with a 75mm stem, the high stem position, with only 5mm of arm pad pedestal, the bracket rearward, and mid-front armrest hole. This could also be done on a 52cm with a 75mm stem, the mid stem position, with zero arm pad pedestal, the bracket rearward, and the front armrest hole. That set up on the 52cm is pretty much rock bottom on the position; there's almost no way go to lower than that.

If she was to get PRfive or PRfour then it could be a 48cm bike with a 70mm stem in the -17deg position, 30mm of spacer under stem, 10mm of aerobar pedestal, armrest offset of -25mm. If she went with the 50cm it would still be the 70mm stem, -17deg pitch but then only 10mm under stem and 5mm of pedestal, and then armrest off set -40mm - again the 50cm bike is nearly at the bottom in terms of adjust ability.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hello Ian,

i just recently had bike fit done, but i'm not sure I trust the results. Could you take a look and see if it is realistic numbers? PadX looks quite low for me.

I'm 5'10'' tall.
Currently riding 54cm road bike (trek domane alr) which seems to be ok. I'm looking for PR4 Disk
Current saddle height is 698.

The Retul results for Tri bike:
Saddle Height: 687
Saddle setback: -42
Arm Pad Stack BB: 703
Arm Pad Reach BB: 248
Arm Pad Reach: 289
Arm Pad Drop: 37
Frame Stack: 611
Frame Reach: 359

Thank you
Oleg

Oleg,
I agree, the Pad X (Pad Reach) numbers don't make sense. Even the Pad Y is suspicious: they've got you at 703. If I massage your saddle height and pad drop it would think Pad Y would be more like 645ish - and if all you gave me was a few choice bio markers I'd put your Pad Y at 630ish and Pad X at 430 (to rear of pad where QR measures it).

I'm going with Pad Y of 635 and Pad X of 435 and I'm going to prescribe this with room to move. Don't freak when I give you the size. QR sizing is both magically logical and startling at first. You should be on a 52cm bike, with a 90mm stem set up in the -17deg position with a 10mm spacer under that stem and 10mm of arm pad pedestal. The pads should be off set -55mm or -47mm resulting in either a Pad X of 430 or 438 respectively (that's just one screw hole fore-aft in the arm cup). There's lots of room to move here both in the reach of your cockpit (there's a 70mm stem and a 110 stem plus lots of fore-aft in the armpads). And there's up and down with up to 30mm under stem, 15mm pedestal and flipping the stem to a +17 position.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Just a bump here because there's a Black Friday sale going on where you can save up to $2050 here https://quintanarootri.com/pages/triathlon-bikes?utm_source=pardot&utm_campaign=qr-black-friday-2019

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Thanks for the reminder! Ordering my wife's bike next weekend (early Christmas surprise). :)

---

- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

PERFECT!!!

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian,
Looking to make my first tri bike purchase. I’ve never been fit, I’m on a spec allez road bike.

Height (5’5”)
Inseam 77 cm +/-
Saddle height 665 mm

I’m looking at the PR6 and PR5 I’m assuming 50. Thoughts from the little bit I could give you. Thanks in advance.

Jeremy1usc,
If you look back through this thread and others I've posted on in the Forum you'll see that I'm a FIRM believer of a prioritized progression of the bike buying process...
1) Go to a fitter who's educated, experience, and has the proper tooling (dynamic fit bike) and have a fit done BEFORE you buy. This will result in the exact size and front end configuration you need as well as all the coordinates. The fit is essentially done before you even own the bike.
2) Take an existing tri bike that fits well, measure the Pad Y and Pad X of that bike and shop for the new bike based on those numbers. As said, this won't work for you as this purchase will be your first tri bike.
3) Give me some numbers about you, your morphology, and let me try to estimate the Pad Y and Pad X for purchase.

I wanted to make that preface because I see "usc" in your screen name - if that speaks to an institute of higher learning in the Los Angeles area please make an appointment with me at my fit studio wedged between Santa Monica and Malibu, and let's do this perfectly with the #1 method. If I'm guessing wrong and the USC as you're using it stands for something like Uxbridge (Massachusetts) Service Center well then here we go with option 3....

I think your Pad Y is ~578 and your Pad X is ~446.

If you were going to get a Quintanna Roo PRsix....it would be a size 48 with the 90mm stem (they make 3 stems: 75, 90, 110), the base clamped in the "mid" position (meaning one of the clam shells atop and one below), +10mm of arm pad pedestal, the arm rest mounted in the middle hole and the bracket oriented forward. There's lots of room for fore 'n aft movement in the cockpit with this prescription and there's lots of room to go up, and 10mm to go lower.

If you were to get the Quintanna Roo PRfive (or four)... it would be a size 48 with the 90mm stem in the -17 degree position and slammed (that is to say zero spacers under the stem), and the the pads either offset -17.5mm or offset -10mm - the former results in a Pad X of 441, the latter is a Pad X of 449 (I think you're around 446 so this'll either test my estimation or your preference to where your elbow sits: on the pad or off the back of the pad slightly).

Be sure to let me know if you're in the LA area.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian,

I've been considering a new bike (probably PRfive, maybe PRsix if they fit) for a little while now and the sale is making me itchy to pull the trigger. But I've never had a fit, so I think I should follow the recommended steps. Could you suggest a fitter in or around Pittsburgh, PA? I'd be willing to travel a bit (up to 4-5hrs give or take). Thanks!

Hi Ian ,
Thanks for doing this. I too am considering a Pr5 or pr6 and wondering what you might recommend if I was trying to get close to my current fit. My last fit was a few years ago and currently have a 2011 Blue Triad EX. I’ve focused mainly on 70.3 and 140.6 races so position might be a bit relaxed. I should be able to go a little lower up front.
My retul setup from a few years ago is...
Frame stack 520
Frame reach 382
Saddle height 702
Saddle setback 21
Pad stack BB 678 (bb vertical to top arm pad)
Arm pad reach BB 375 (bb Horiz to back of pad)
I have a 70mm stem +6
165mm cranks

Thank in advance ,
Al

A friend bought a QR Disk and loves it... I had to do a stem riser etc... to get my bike to fit my new fit... was comfortable but she is getting OLLLD and starting to show it.

Here are my stats... anything work?
saddle height 87.5
Saddle setback 1.3
Saddle armrest drop 5.0
Saddle-armrest 46.5
Armrest extension 34
Armrest width 24

Appreciate your help/thoughts

Hi

Thanks for the help


Stack 680
Reach 453


Seems I'm an outlier


JW

If your reach number is to the middle then you can check out my options from the first posts on this thread as our numbers are really similar. (680/455)

---

@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

Hey

Thanks for the reply. Ill take a look and go from there.

JW

weakandpuny,

Let's hear the IMAZ race report with extra focus on bike performance and bike comfort - inquiring, QR loving minds want to know.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian,

I'm interested in the PRSix Disc. I'm 33 male and 6ft. My last Retul fit was in 2015, so I plan to get another in early 2020. I am a much stronger cyclist now. My next bike needs to fit a more aggressive position. I have been doing tri's for over 10 years and just cracked the top 10 of my AG in my last IM. Hoping for a AG podium in the coming years.

Saddle height: 812mm
Handlebar reach: 505mm
Handlebar drop: -124mm
saddle setback: -24mm
armpad reach: 436mm
armpad drop: -68mm
armpad sack: 725mm
armpad reach: 412mm

Thanks for the help!

EricP,
There's one big confusion (see note at bottom) and so many variables in here - prescribing now means I'm using old numbers and I'm unsure if you're thinking PRsix or PRfive/four. I'm willing to do both. I'd love to know where you live city/town because I agree with you about your development and time for a refit. My expectation would be an arm pad elevation of ~80mm and you're currently at 68mm. That would put your new Pad Y ~12mm lower than your current. Again, this is all speculation and if you're willing to share your locale I'd to recommend a fitter in your area if I have one - and not by equipment alone (Retul). As Slowman once floored me with.... "nobody ever comes to work on Monday and says 'I went to the most amazing Fender guitar concert this weekend'. What they say is 'I heard Mark Knopfler play this weekend and he is amazing'."

Clear up one thing for me... is your Pad Reach 412 or is it 436? And, do you want to be work out both the super bike (PRsix) and the mortal bikes (PRfive and PRfour)?

Let me know and I'll respond immediately, Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Thanks for asking, Ian.

My first Ironman (after three 70.3s) was Ironman Santa Rosa 2018, which I finished in 16:09. My bike then was a basic 2012 Cervelo P2. Poor pacing and climbing skills, combined with mediocre fitness, burned too many matches on the bike, thus nuking my run.

Arizona (Goal time of 15:30)

I was much better on sticking to my training plan (Be Iron Fit - Intermediate). I'm still a shitty swimmer and slow runner, but I had a race plan in my mind. Overall I'm not a very good triathlete, but went into this race with much better bike fitness, and a way better and faster bike.

Swim: Water wasn't too cold. I double-cap and wear ear plugs, so I was fine temp-wise. I couldn't get clear of crowded water, so occasionally swallowed some nasty Tempe Town Lake water. Swim time 1:37, which was 3 minutes faster than in the nicer water at IMSR. I was ok with this time.

T1: I chose to forgo the wetsuit strippers at swim exit due to the air temp being ~50 deg. Ran the .4 miles to changing tent. Ended up being quite cold as I dried off and tried to put my cycling kit on. I was shivering so bad I was shaking like a research monkey. A volunteer took pity on my and helped me get on my arm warmers, vest, helmet, and shoes. Another volunteer brought me some hot chicken broth to help warm my core. Once I was able to warm up, I finally got on my bike and hit the course. T1 time was 27 minutes. Ugh! I should have been MUCH closer to 15 minutes.

Bike: Out on the bike course I settled into a comfortable pace going through town. Shortly after hitting the Beeline, I noticed my heart rate was about 12-15 bpm higher than optimal. Probably within the first 10 miles I began feeling a side-stitch like pain below my right rib cage. I figured perhaps I was pushing the outbound incline on the Beeline too hard, and if I backed off to a more conservative pace, it would go away. It didn't. My heart rate settled down and now I was rolling a good pace. 15-16 mph outbound Beeline had me comfortably passing a lot of athletes, and OBVIOUSLY being passed by some way better cyclists than me. My side stitch progressed to full-on abdominal cramps by the time I got to the turn around. I found I was able to stay longer in the aero bars on my QR PR Four than I did when I rode my Cervelo P2.

On the return leg of the Beeline, I was hauling ass (for me it was lol), holding 29-32 mph almost the entire way back. I was feeling like a rock star. At least a front-of-the-back-of-the-pack Ironman. On the second outbound of the Beeline I began to feel pain in my left knee. Over the course of my training for this race, I failed to strength train and seldom stretched. About 2 months prior to the race I noticed my IT band was frequently tender. Did I address this issue with rehab exercises and stretching. Of course not, don't be ridiculous. I continued at a comfortable pace up the Beeline to the turn around, but my stomach was cramping quite bad by now. I had considered backing off my fuel / hydration plan to see if it would go away, but thought that if they didn't, I would be behind and risk dehydration / bonk. I stopped at the aid station at the turn around and stood upright to walk around for a few minutes to see if my cramping would subside. No luck. Clock still ticking. I rode to the bike special needs pick up, and got off the bike again. Now I was on the side of the road with a volunteer holding my bike, while I was doubled over at the waist moaning and grunting loudly. At this point (~56 miles) I was seriously considering abandoning the race. Another volunteer eventually came over and asked if I wanted medical. I said no, and rode away before medical could pull me from the course (not sure if they would, but I didn't want to risk it.).

Now I changed my perspective; small victories. Get to the next aid station...then the next. Last loop. My knee is killing me and I am miserable with my abdominal cramps. Soldier on. Same, if not faster, outbound leg, and slightly slower return leg. The cramps are really starting to fatigue me now. I finally got back into town and rolled into T2. I saw my wife and daughter as I got off my bike. Got sugars and started breaking down crying. It hurt that bad. My wife encouraged me to keep moving forward...so I did. My knee was also hurting pretty noticeably at this point, so the marathon should be delightful

Bike time: 6:40. I was NOT OK with this time. I figured I lost at least 25 minutes at the side of the road at aid stations / special needs, just dealing with the stomach cramps. Without the cramps, I truly believe I would have been quite close to 6 hrs flat. The bike performed BEAUTIFULLY. In the many 5-6 hr training rides I did on the PR Four, I never felt knee pain, so I can only speculate that my doing my own fit, based on my prior fit specs and Ian's recommendation, were done incorrectly and exacerbated my wonky IT band.

Bottom line with reference to the bike. I FRIGGIN' LOVE THIS BIKE. It is a rocket ship. I was fairly comfortable throughout the 112 miles, and can only assume the comfort will be better with a more dialed in fit (done by someone who is not me), and better strength and core fitness.

Run: I began the run and settled into a Run 4 min / Walk 1 min. interval. My abdomen and knee still hurt a lot, but I was tolerating it. I was getting kinda bummed out by now. A bike leg that should have been fun, was not due to my pain. Now I'm on a spectator saturated run course and feeling quite miserable. Yeah Ironman is hard, and painful, and fatiguing, but it's also fun. I wanted to have fun. Rule #5, bro. Keep forward progress. My 4 min run was around a 10 min / mi. pace, and I kept my walk brisk...until around mile 19 of the marathon, and the wheels fell off. The left knee was now so painful I couldn't run anymore. I think the concrete surrounding Tempe Town Lake is the hardest on the planet. I finished the race walking.

Final time: 15:30. I hit my goal time exactly down to the minute, but felt I could have been much closer to 14 hrs even, were it not for the cramping / knee pain. It is what it is, but I came away from this race massively disappointed. Alas...what could have been.

---

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

Al,
That 678 number is tallish and that 375 number is SUPER short. I'm thrilled to see the 165 cranks and I can't help but think that you should be riding steeper in seat angle. My immediate suspicion is the saddle (either type of placement): By moving your hips forward you'd likely hit a jackpot: just as comfortable, more power and more arrow 'cause you'd be longer and lower.

So here's my answer with current Pad Y of 678 and Pad X of 375: if it's the PRsix the only way to get close is a 50cm with the high stem/bar clamp + 75mm of pedestal. This is highest the 50cm will go and that yields 675 in Pad Y. Then you'd do the 75mm stem with the pads/bracket all the way. This is the shortest the 50cm will go and that yields a 385 in Pad Y. So the 50 doesn't quite hit your Pad Stack but the 52, 54, 58.5 will but then they are way too long in the cockpit. If you did the PRfive it's the 48cm bike with the 110 stem in a +17 position, 3cm under stem, 1cm aerobar riser, and pads 100% percent of the way back. The 678 is nearly dead-on and the length is still 4mm too long.

You see the theme here - we're having to go with a very small bike to get near the 375 number and we're having to jack it up to the max to meet the 678 number. It makes me doubt the fit. I'd love to see a pic of you, at profile, riding your current bike on a trainer, under power. And, I'd like to know what saddle you're on.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

SasquatchTri,
I don't have enough to go on yet......

The best way to buy a new bike is ALWAYS to get fit first. From that fitting you know your Pad Y and Pad X and shop with the utmost confidence and you have all your fit coordinates (seat height, set back, cockpit distance, pad width, etc. etc.)

The second best way might work for you here too: if you're happy with your current position then we can measure the Pad Y and Pad X off of that and shop with confidence. Get to me here and I'll give you easy instructions on how to do this at home.

If something happened to that bike (dismantled, out of town, whatever) then tell me how tall you are and your inseam and using those plus the numbers you provided I can respond right away with a pretty darn good guess on Pad Y and Pad X - and the bike that'll work.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Thanks man! OK... that is what my fitter exported to me when redoing me on my current bike....

I dont understand what you mean by Pad x and pad y....

I am 6'5" and 35" inseam

JW,
Not so much an outlier.

If you went with the PRsix the 54cm bike would be best with a 90mm stem set up in the mid-clamp position + 50mm of pedestal. The arm pads would be set in the mid-front hole with the bracket set rearward. This yields a Pad Stack of 680 and a Pad Reach of 450.

If you went with the PRfive (or four) I think the best option would be 56cm with a 70mm stem in the -17 degree position with 20mm spacers under stem and 5mm aerobar pedestal, and armrests offset -32.5mm. That yields Pad Stack of 680 and Pad Reach of 455. It could be done on a 54 or 58.5 as well but the position is extreme and you're nearly painted into a corner with little room to move on both those bikes.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Thanks so much.

Would I be extra twitchy with a stem shorter than 90?

Thanks