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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [drseamus] [ In reply to ]
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drseamus,

I've got your seat height at 705mm. How tall are you? Let me go to work with this formula and let's see how that compares to what your fitter gave you over the phone.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Ian,

Looking for buying a Speedmax CF but don’t know if a large or xl would fit best.

Some measurements from a retül report on a P3 58 cm:

Height on me: 189 cm
Saddle height: 85 cm
Pad Y: 70 cm maximum (would like to go lower)
Pad X: 49 cm minimum (would like to go further forward)

Thanks
Patrik
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [sfjab] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Thanks so much for the detailed feedback. Is there a greater range on the 2019 Speedmax 8.0? That is, can the lower end bike accommodate the Pad Y of 565?

Sfjab,
The frame geometry and pad placement (range) is the same for all the Speedmax SLX bikes. The difference between the SLX 9.0 and the SLX 8.0 is the build, the components. The 9.0 comes with Di2 and the 8.0 comes with Ui2*

Ian

*Ui2 is the slang some of us have taken to use Ultegra Di2 to differentiate it from Dura Ace Di2.

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [Climb11] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Seat height. 700
Stack. 605
Reach. 440 back of pad.
Pad width. 185 center to center of pad
If you can’t use back of pad. Can you give me the pad messurement so i can provide you the correct numbers.
Looking at the slx
Thank you for all the information here


Climb11,

I'm going to use Pad Y of 605 and Pad X of 490 (that's different from Stack and Reach but I'm sure that's what you mean). The pad is roughly 100mm in length so I'm taking 50mm, adding it to the number you provided to approximate the center of the pad.

For the 2019 SLX you could go one of two ways...

A size small, either bar (flat or rise), short stem, pads centered on the stock mounting holes, and 40mm of spacer under the aerobars.
---or---
A size medium, either bar, short stem pads back two holes (I believe) in the stock mounting holes, and 10mm of spacer under the bars.

Both of these positions are really good. It would be hard to make an argument for one over the other. It's nice 'cause it gives you options on availability (and that can be a factor).

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks.

I was referring to the CF versus the CF SLX... the CF is the lower end range of bikes. Is the geometry identical?
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [sfjab] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I was referring to the CF versus the CF SLX.

sfjab,

Oh this a great option for you!!! With a Pad Y of 545 and a Pad X of 470 you could get on a Speedmax CF size xs and that bike's Pad Y goes down to 553 (and Pad X down to 430). If you were in my studio there are a couple of things we could discuss to make the CF perfect and crazy sexy.

1) Switch the aerobars to another model. I think a Profile-Design SubSonic might get you down to your precise 545 Pad Y.
2) Switch out the whole front end to a mod-superbike front end either from Profile-Design (Aeria Ultimate) or Tri Rig

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks! Where is your studio?

I just decided to set up an appointment at Ero Sports in LA next week to get some thoughts on fit and bike purchase options before pulling the trigger on the Canyon.

Thanks for your work on this!
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [Patrik R] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Hi Ian,
Looking for buying a Speedmax CF but don’t know if a large or xl would fit best.
Some measurements from a retül report on a P3 58 cm:
Height on me: 189 cm
Saddle height: 85 cm
Pad Y: 70 cm maximum (would like to go lower)
Pad X: 49 cm minimum (would like to go further forward)

Patrik R,

Okay, this is a tough call. I'm going to give you the numbers that matter and then you decide how much longer you want to go.

The Pad Y on both the L and XL will hit the 700 and give you room to move lower: the Large bottoms out at 625 and the XL at 654.
The Pad X is the question you'll need to wrestle with... If you get the Large you can start at 490 but the longest it'll go is 513. That's 23mm longer - which could be perceived as a lot or a little depending on how much you think you'll stretch out. The XL STARTS at 508 so you'll have to start 18mm longer than you're 490 now but you can get crazy long on the bike (out to 533).

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Ian

Me details below. Which size would be best for me. Would prefer to be stretched out a little more. I feel my elbows are a bit tucked in (back) like this.

This would be for a speedmax CF SLX 9.0

Saddle height over BB 797mm
Saddle setback 8mm
Drop from saddle to bars 181mm
Reach from saddle to bars 799mm

SX=133mm
SY=736mm
HY=555mm
HX=520mm

Extension length 250mm
Pad reach 500mm
Pad stack 605mm
Pad height 50mm
Pad offset 20

Let me know if you need any more info.

Phil
Last edited by: Phil Hodson: Jan 16, 19 6:41
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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ianpeace wrote:

Quote:
Hey Ian!
Looking for the CF and these are some measurements I can provide:
Height: 190cm , Seat height: 84.2cm, long legs.
Thank you so much!


cmart,

Firstly, thanks for surviving my rant on that other thread.

A real fit by an educated, experienced fitter who uses a dynamic fit bike is the only way to be sure of your Pad Y and Pad X. If a pre-fit's not gonna happen then we look to other options. Canyon's PPS is good. I'm using a formula that I think is a bit better.
I think your Pad Y 674 and your Pad X is 502.

The Pad Y range on a CF size large is 627-714 - your 674 falls very nicely in there. The Pad X range on the CF size large is 488-513 and your 502 gives you 11mm of room to go longer.

I want you to have all the information on your options so you can make the best decision. so....

The Pad Y range on a CF size XL is 654-741 - your 674 still works, you've got 20mm to go down (and then another ~45mm if you had to with a customized under-mount). The Pad X range on the CF size XL is 508-533 - your 502 means that the XL, as it comes with the 90mm stem, is too long by 6mm even with the pads all the way back. You could order an 80mm stem and solve this, or, maybe a 6mm longer cockpit is acceptable.

Get back to me here if you have more questions.

Ian


Hey Ian,

sorry for the followup but I'm interested in what you think the better choice would be. Thinking about getting the XL and additionally including a 70mm stem which would give me a nice range for the reach with a lot of potential to go longer compared to 11mm on the L (according to your formula)

Thanks so much!
Last edited by: cmart: Jan 16, 19 8:49
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [sfjab] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Thanks! Where is your studio?

sfjab,

I'm on the westside of Los Angeles wedged between Santa Monica and Malibu. You're headed to see Jim Manton in Carson. He's excellent. Bring all your cycling gear and be ready and willing to work a bit on the bike while you're there. You'll leave with all of your fit coordinates AND Pad Y/Pad X for bike purchase and a precise prescription for a Canyon Speedmax.

After your fit get back to us here ono this thread and tell us about your experience. I'll be eager to hear what the outcome is.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [Phil Hodson] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Hi Ian

Me details below. Which size would be best for me. Would prefer to be stretched out a little more. I feel my elbows are a bit tucked in (back) like this.
This would be for a speedmax CF SLX 9.0
Pad reach 500mm
Pad stack 605mm

Phil,

This is good info. I'm primarily gonna use Pad Y 605 and Pad X 500 from your details. From those numbers we (modern fitters) can prescribe any and all super bikes. The rest of the stuff while critical isn't something anybody should be getting into via text, I'd want that to happen in person. Judging from these numbers you've been fit, and while you know you want to make a small tweak you're probably pretty happy with many of the coordinates.

On the 2019 Canyon Speedmax SLX you could go one of two ways...

A size small with either bar (flat or rise), short stem, 40mm of spacer under the aerobars, and pads pushed forward 1 hole from max in the stock mounts.
--or---
A size medium with either bar, short stem, 10mm of spacer under the extensions, and pads dead center in the stock mounts.

I would say get the medium - mainly because you want to stretch out a bit more and the max Pad X on the small with the short stem is 507 and you may want to extend the cockpit more than 7mm. If there was an availability issue and you had to get the small that would still work because you can put on the long stem and it will give you reach all the way out to 527 (or more if you used the TSP). You're at 181mm of drop which is huge so I'm worried that the medium bottoms out at 595. Well, see, there you go - I ended up using more than just your Pad Y & X. Knowledge is power.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [cmart] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Hey Ian,

sorry for the followup but I'm interested in what you think the better choice would be. Thinking about getting the XL and additionally including a 70mm stem which would give me a nice range for the reach with a lot of potential to go longer compared to 11mm on the L (according to your formula)

Thanks so much!

cmart,

I welcome this follow up and any more that arise. My raison d'etre is fit and I want you to be comfortable, powerful, and slippery on this bike so let's keep after that goal.

I went back and reread your original post. I looked at all the details you gave and all the data I have. I think you should get the XL but do not order the 80mm stem right away. Hold off on that. When it arrives pull the pad cushion off (velcro) and mount the hard arm-rest shells as far back as they go (this is Profile-Design aerobar, super easy to work on). That will give you a Pad X of 508 to the center. The pads are nearly 100mm across so you may very well find yourself loving where your elbow sits on the pad or just off the trailing edge of the pad. By the way, Mat Steinmetz (a great fitter based in Boulder and designer/owner of 51 Speedshop aerobars) and I both teach fitters for the Guru Academy. He's adamant about elbows being on the pad, not hanging of the pad - on that damn pad! He'll do 7 minutes of material about it in class. Me, I'm okay with elbow being in the center of the pad, near the back, hanging slightly off the back - where ever if feels best to the rider.

One more thing on this - none of this fit will work, NONE of it, unless you love the saddle. This bike will come with a Fizik Mistica on it and it's a great saddle, millions love it. If you're not one of those millions then you have to get another saddle. The only way all this discussion about the Pad X will work is if your saddle is in the right place (seat height and set back) AND you are sitting on that saddle where it's supposed to be ridden (the front 1/2). If you are pushing your bum back to the back of that saddle to find comfort then the fit will not work. Just be aware of that.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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You are seriously awesome! You should link to a donation page in your signature, would love to buy you a coffee for your tips ;)

Okay, I'm gonna go with the XL and will update you on the results. I'm planing on doing a fitting after getting used to the bike a little bit in order to report first experiences or problems to the fitter. Will take some time though cause unfortunately the Stealth Black XL is exactly the one that is not in stock.
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Ian

Wow thanks for the quick and detailed reply! Surprising though I never ever thought I would be on a small bike a medium at a push! I’m on a 56 P5 and feel that’s small. Maybe that’s me though. Im 6’2” and have never been a small in anything! But what fits fits they say. I think the medium would be a better choice.

What do the extension spacers do to the hydration at the front? Is it like a (Lange/Sanders eat al) mono post style or wider?

It’s interesting what you say in a later post with regards to yours and Matt’s teaching. I seem to feel more comfortable with my elbows slightly hanging over the pads. Is there any sound reasoning behind his want to get them on the pads?

Thanks again for your help. Now all I have to do is find one and smuggle it across to the frozen north!

Phil
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [Phil Hodson] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Hi Ian

Wow thanks for the quick and detailed reply! Surprising though I never ever thought I would be on a small bike a medium at a push! I’m on a 56 P5 and feel that’s small. Maybe that’s me though. Im 6’2” and have never been a small in anything! But what fits fits they say. I think the medium would be a better choice.

What do the extension spacers do to the hydration at the front? Is it like a (Lange/Sanders eat al) mono post style or wider?

It’s interesting what you say in a later post with regards to yours and Matt’s teaching. I seem to feel more comfortable with my elbows slightly hanging over the pads. Is there any sound reasoning behind his want to get them on the pads?

Thanks again for your help.

Phil,

The thing that puts you on a smaller bike than you'd think is your drop. You ride super low. I'm 6'1" and leggy. Slowman is our height and leggy and we all have a pretty similar Pad X (you and me at 500, Dan at 505) but i'm at 636 in Pad Y, he's at 640 in Pad Y and you're all the way down at 605. A large bottoms out at 630.

The whole concept of going from the two separate, arm pad pedistals (2018 and earlier) to the monospacer is that the who systems get's lined up: hydration in front of spacers in front of bento box. I haven't spent enough quality time with this bike, all I got was ~15min in Kona and I couldn't put any tools to it or inspect it fully.

I think the reason Mat likes the elbows on the pads more is that he really likes a higher hands position - sort of towards the praying mantis thing. And that works better with elbows on the pad.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [cmart] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
You are seriously awesome!

cmart,

You're welcome. Happy I could help.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Ian

This is very interesting and surprising but I trust your numbers. Like I said now all I need to do is get my hands on one and if possible try one out. I feel a trip coming on!

To be honest the mono spacer really made this bike truly stunning to me. Especially the way it integrates everything.

Your help has been much appreciated.

Regards

Phil
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [Phil Hodson] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Thanks Ian

Your help has been much appreciated.

Phil,

You're welcome. Keep me posted here as you move forward with the purchase. I'm eager to hear how it goes.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Ian - Wondering how I can get the right measurements to you if I no longer have my physical bike, but I do have the retul fit report handy.

Chasing PB Podcast Latest interview with Eli Hemming on Targeting a US MTR spot in Tokyo
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ChasingPB] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Hey Ian - Wondering how I can get the right measurements to you if I no longer have my physical bike, but I do have the retul fit report handy.

ChasingPB,

I've sent you a PM with my email address. Send me your fit report and then I'll respond here on this thread with my thoughts.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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I'm about 5'7". Thanks!
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [drseamus] [ In reply to ]
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Jeremy,

I just went back through our communications on this thread to make sure I had all the info fresh on my brain. I've dropped in some quotes just to make sure there are no typos hidden in here. You started with a "stack" of 691 and and a "reach" of 534 (165 crank) and the idea of... "I want to go lower in the future".

My response to that was...
Quote:
For the 2019 Speedmax SLX.........That bike will be a size Large.....etc. etc..

Then you can back with more info - seat height of 705, and then we knew it had to be a size medium.

Something seemed off to me and I inquired and you responded
Quote:
The numbers I walked out the door with are not the pad x/y numbers

Now, we're going forward with a formula based off your overall height and your saddle height. So, with a seat height of 705mm and an overall height of 1702mm (5'7") I'd predict your Pad Y at 596 and your Pad X at 463.

If that prediction is correct (more on that below) then you have two ways to go...

2019 Speedmax SLX size M with a short stem, the TSP to pull pads a bit more, the flat bar, and....wait for it....slammed, which is to say no spacers under the aerobars.
---or---
2019 Speedmax SLX size S with a short stem, flat bar, pads back just a bit from the middle and in the stock mount holes (so, no TSP), and 30mm of aerobar pedestal.

Let's stop right here for one second. I'm slightly nervous because of where we started. We started with "stack of 691 and reach of 534". The fit business has this bit of confusion over these terms Stack 'n Reach vs. Pad Y 'n Pad X. Two very different things: Stack/Reach being the measurement to the top of the frame's head tube (used by fitters to size a mortal bike), and Pad Y/Pad X being the measurement to the arm pads (used by fitters to prescribe a super bike). What happens on this thread, and elsewhere in life, is that folks come forward saying "stack and reach" but really mean Pad Y/Pad X. This is so common that I took your first post to mean Pad Y/X. If you're telling me - "ignore that set of 691/534 numbers. Let's go with your prescription off the overall height/seat height to prescribe Pad Y/Pad X" then great. I'm confident! For your height, the prescription of 596/463 falls into an orthodox position - meaning that's where the vast majority of folks your height with your seat height ride. Just like if we both go in to get a vasectomy together, the doc's not going to cut into your scrotum and my abdomen. Not unless I was deformed at birth and somehow my vas deference is up around my small intestine. If I'm pretty normal and you're pretty normal we're both gonna take on the responsibility of birth control with the same, simple incision in the same place. If you're pretty normal then your Pad Y is around 596 and your Pad X is 463. PS. I've had mine done, it was great, I should have had that done at age 13. I'll still go with you to the appointment if you want because I know all of humanities issues can be solved by lowering the Earth's population. But I digress.

Okay, back to it.....you're ready to buy and, assuming you're in the U.S., I think we're gonna see bikes available soon, so let's get down to the nitty gritty. If you buy a Medium you're in a pretty extreme corner of that bike: slammed, so you can not go any lower. And we're using the TSP (Team Switch Plate) to pull the pads back a bit more than normal so you'll only have ~15mm to tighten the cockpit. All that gets summed up to say "the medium is a hair too big". A better situation is this....

On a size small SLX with a short stem you're in the stock mounts so you can come back as much as 33mm and stretch out as much as 90mm - lots of room to move there. AND in terms of "pad elevation" AKA "drop" AKA "Pad Y" - I'm prescribing 30mm of spacers so you can go down 30mm or up 25mm. You're right in the sweet spot of a size small. That's the bike for you!

If you have ANY hesitation or questions get back to me here. AND, if you'd like me to call your fitter to discuss the fit you had done and the numbers you walked away with I'd be happy to do that as well. I'll do it in a very respectful manner. PM me if you want me to act on that.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ChasingPB] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Hey Ian - Wondering how I can get the right measurements to you if I no longer have my physical bike, but I do have the retul fit report handy.

ChasingPB,

Okay, I found your Pad X to be 377 to the rear of the pad. Canyon measures to the center of their pad (most bike companies do) so I've added the appropriate amount (50mm) and have your Pad X at 427. The Pad Y is said to be 710 on your fit sheet. Let me say this right off the bat: no way! I don't, for one second, believe these coordinates on your fit sheet are viable. It's possible, but I don't believe it. Here's why I find 'em dubious.
1) 427 is an incredibly short Pad X. The shortest the Speedmax SLX goes is 426 and that's a small with everything set to the extreme to get the pads back that far. This might be possible if you were very short and of that little height it was all legs and very little torso length at all.
2) 710 is an incredibly tall Pad Y. The tallest the Speedmax SLX goes is 685 and that's the large with everything set to the extreme to get the pads up that high. This might be possible if you were very tall and you've had so trauma maybe, like all of your lumbar vertebrata fused.
3) Your arm pad drop is 15mm. That seems questionable to me as well. I would expect your arm pad elevation to be at least 10% of our seat height and that would put it at 73mm.

I think the fit was....I'm sorry to say this but I think the fit was, somehow, just did not happen properly. This could be for a number of reasons. I still want to help and believe I can.

Get back to me here with your height. I can use that plus your saddle height of 735 and come out with a pretty good estimate of your real Pad Y and Pad X and then I can make suggestions.

Let me know, Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Ian, curious where your Pad X/Y formula would put me at. I’ve been playing with my position a lot lately and interested to see how this lines up with what I have currently.

Height - 173mm
Saddle Height - 733mm
Inseam - 813mm

Thanks!
Last edited by: dave_o: Jan 22, 19 11:39
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