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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [Laurens4790] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Ian,

Really great you are putting all this work into helping everyone with this. I am currently riding on a Giant Propel which I have converted to a triathlon bike with clip on handlebars etc. Obviously not optimal so now looking into buying a Canyon Speedmax. See below my specs

Length: 182cm
Saddle hight: 810mm
Pad stack: 669mm
Pad reach: 440mm (I know this looks very short, but because the sadle of my propel can not get more to the front, it is so short. My saddle setback is 90mm, which is far from optimal for me. adding this to the reach and elimination the saddle setback would result in a pad reach of 530mm)
Saddle setback: 90mm
Drop saddle to bars: 100mm
Crank: 165mm

What would be the best options for me? Much appriciated!


Laurens4790,

You and I agree that this position isn't optimal. I'm deeply reluctant to prescribe a new bike purchase off of those numbers. I'd like you to fitted by a legit fitter. If you want to do that let me know the area in which you live and I'll recommend a fitter. If that's not an option then I'm gonna take your height of 1820mm and your saddle height of 810mm and come up with a Pad Y of 647 and a Pad X of 503. I'm more confident in that than your current 669/440. If my numbers are right then you'd have two options in the 2019 Speedmax SLX:

1) Size medium, either bar (flat or rise), 55mm of pedestal, short stem and pads dead center in the stock mounts.
--or--
2) Size large, either bar (flat or rise), 15mm of pedestal, short stem, and pads back almost all the way.

I'd recommend the large.

Let me know if you have more questions, Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for your input!

I checked my Speedmax after making several adjustments over the last month and this is where it's at. (+/- 5mm)
Saddle height - 780
Pad Y - 680
Pad X - 460
Drop - 115

I do have the angle spacer kit under the pads. Is that the TSP you're referring to?
I also have the 60 + 20 spacers installed.
Pads are all the way back.

As for the riser bars, Canyon says they're the same height where the spacers mount. Only the grips are higher, which I believe I need since the drop from the pads to the grips is 145! I'm almost still in aero with my hands on the base bar grips!

I feel pretty good in this position. I have to make sure my hands are out to the end of the aerobars or my knees get very close to my elbows.

In your opinion, I at least have right size frame though?
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [trikent] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Thanks for your input!

I checked my Speedmax after making several adjustments over the last month and this is where it's at. (+/- 5mm)
Saddle height - 780
Pad Y - 680
Pad X - 460
Drop - 115

I do have the angle spacer kit under the pads. Is that the TSP you're referring to?
I also have the 60 + 20 spacers installed.
Pads are all the way back.

As for the riser bars, Canyon says they're the same height where the spacers mount. Only the grips are higher, which I believe I need since the drop from the pads to the grips is 145! I'm almost still in aero with my hands on the base bar grips!

I feel pretty good in this position. I have to make sure my hands are out to the end of the aerobars or my knees get very close to my elbows.

In your opinion, I at least have right size frame though?

trikent,

Let's take your last bit first: "In your opinion, I at least have the right size frame though?". That is a flat out YES. Frankly, 80% of the population can achieve their position on two different size frames from the same manufacturer so that's not all that challenging. What matters are the details so you are super comfy, creating lots of power, and not out in the wind too much. And we solve much of that with pad placement.

Quote:
I do have the angle spacer kit under the pads. Is that the TSP you're referring to?

No. The TSP (Team Switch Plate) is not the same as the angle spacer kit. In fact I'm to understand that the TSP actually limits the ability of the angle spacer kit. The TSP allows the pads to move fore & aft beyond what the stock mounts allow. I've stolen images from CanyonJay (here on ST). The first pick below are the stock armpad mounts:

This image below is the TSP bolted into those stock armpad mounts, and in this pic it's positioned to make the cockpit longer (stretch it out). When reversed it can make the cockpit shorter (tighter). Based on the numbers you gave my I was sure that you need the TSP to shorten the cockpit but you comented on your knees nearly hitting your elbows so a TSP to shorten the cockpit would only make that worse. More on that below...


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As for the riser bars, Canyon says they're the same height where the spacers mount.

Okay, hold on... if you're bike is the 2019 then this is true. If your bike is the 2018 then this is..what we call in the U.S. political scene a "falsehood", or, in the bike fit world "a damn lie". The 2018 bike has three base bars (drop, flat, rise) and the arm pads mount in such a way that the base bar does effect the pad height. The 2019 bike has only two bars (flat and rise) and switching between those bars has no effect on pad height. I'm pretty certain that you have a 2018 bike. I think only guys who have won 2 Ironman World Championships have those bikes right now and I don't Frodo & Lange are lurking on the ST Forum under the name trikent :)

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I feel pretty good in this position. I have to make sure my hands are out to the end of the aerobars or my knees get very close to my elbows.

Let's discuss this for a sec... This makes me suspicious of some noise in our process somewhere: This sounds to me like you could go with a bit more length in the cockpit and that can probably happen with ease by unbolting the arm pads and moving them out a hole or two.

Get back to me with more Qs if you have 'em.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [hodgey] [ In reply to ]
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hodgey wrote:
Hey Ian,

as with all so far, appreciate what you are doing here.

My fit co-ordinates are:

Arm pad reach: 428mm (to back of pad)
Arm pad stack: 641mm (to top of pad)
Saddle height: 728mm (165mm cranks)

Saddle set back: -50mm (for 76 degrees, may come forward)

Arm pad width: 237mm

First position back after long break - expect position will get progressively lower through time so some scope for lower (and probably longer) would be appreciated.

Think I am a medium but not sure if my reach is going to be an issue on a medium. I am also looking at CF rather than CF SLX


Thanks

Hey Ian, I am bumping this as it may have been overlooked given you have had numerous requests. Thanks again for your help.
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [hodgey] [ In reply to ]
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Seat height. 700
Stack. 605
Reach. 440 back of pad.
Pad width. 185 center to center of pad
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [Climb11] [ In reply to ]
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hi, i did a bike fit and i have quite detailed information in a PDF format, is there an email i can send the information to you ?

Thanks
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Ian. I agree with you, and probably first do a proper fit.

Refering to your advice, I am looking to buy a CF (not a SLX). Would this change your recomendation for the bike size? Thanks!

Laurens
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [garg] [ In reply to ]
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hi, i did a bike fit and i have quite detailed information in a PDF format, is there an email i can send the information to you ?

Thanks

garg,

PM Sent.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [hodgey] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Hey Ian,

as with all so far, appreciate what you are doing here.

My fit co-ordinates are:

Arm pad reach: 428mm (to back of pad)
Arm pad stack: 641mm (to top of pad)
Saddle height: 728mm (165mm cranks)

Saddle set back: -50mm (for 76 degrees, may come forward)

Arm pad width: 237mm

First position back after long break - expect position will get progressively lower through time so some scope for lower (and probably longer) would be appreciated.

Think I am a medium but not sure if my reach is going to be an issue on a medium. I am also looking at CF rather than CF SLX

Thanks

hodgey, thanks for the bump, sorry I missed it.

I'm using Pad Y of 641 and Pad X of 478 (adding 50mm to get to center of pad for Canyon's measurments) For the 2019 Speedmax SLX you could go with a large but you're right to go with a medium here are the details and "the why" of that...

A large would have you using the short stem and the TSP (to pull the pads back even more than the stock mounts allow) and then you'd be back almost to the max on the arm pads (max is 471 - so let's call it one hold forward of max). That's not the end of the world because, as you say, you're probably going forward in the future and there's a ton of movement left for you in that direction. Here's my reservation on the large: to get down to 641 you'd only use 10mm of spacer so if you're going lower in the future you have only 10mm to drop and then you're at the bottom.

A medium puts you in a sweeter spot - short stem, no TSP so you're in the stock mounts, pads back one hole forward of max and 45mm of arm pad pedestal. The spacers are 5mm each so can just pluck 'em progressively as needed. The short stem will allow you to go out to 529 so that gives you ~50mm of future length in the cockpit with this stem and then more if you needed the longer one.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [garg] [ In reply to ]
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hi, i did a bike fit and i have quite detailed information in a PDF format, is there an email i can send the information to you ?
Quote:

garg,

I got your fit details. The fit did measure and record your Pad Y at 704mm (they are calling it "arm pad stack BB"), and your Pad X of 461mm (they are calling it "arm pad reach BB at 411mm" measured to the back of the pad, I need it to go to the middle to have a number I can use). If those numbers you sent me are right - and I studied your fit report, checked the images, I think they measured it out properly. They're might be a couple of issues of accuracy but I can say this - you left there in a better position than the one you walked in with - and that's good! The problem is this - your current arm pad elevation is 30mm (30mm below seat height). That's a very modest "drop". I would expect you to be able to ride 80mm to 100m (11-15% of saddle height). I bet you already suspect this because you recognize all of that construction that currently exists under your arm pads (spacers under the stem, the stem it pointing upward, and all of those pedestals under the aerobars).

If this really is your ultimate position then I'm afraid the 2019 Speedmax SLX won't fit you. You'd have to ride a medium to achieve the Pad X of 461 (shortest the large gets to is 471). The highest the pads will go on a medium is 650 and this fit report says you need a Pad Y of 704. Now, don't be dismayed. I have several resolutions for this...

1) Your current crank length of 170 is too long for you. I think you should probably be riding 155s. You'll need to get a crank from Cobb or Rotor or some such because the big boys (Shimano, SRAM, etc) don't make cranks that short. If you committed to that length crank then your Pad Y could be dramatically lower and you could then ride a 2019 Canyon Speedmax, size medium, rise bar, short stem, TSP and 55mm of arm pad pedestal and pads mounted center hole. The end result would be a arm pad drop of 80mm - I think you could come to love that but only with shorter cranks.

2) You could obtain a 2018 Canyon Speedmax SLX size medium, rise bar, short stem, TSP, a single 60mm + a single 20mm spacer and pads back all the way. The cockpit distance would be spot on for what you ride now. The arm pad drop would be 55mm. With this set up you could get away with 165 cranks (which Shimano makes) but, again I think you should be riding 155 or, at the most, 160s.

This is a lot of speculation on my behalf. I haven't done a consult with you I didn't ask about goals, injury history, confidence, etc. I want to be able to say that an in-person fit is soooo much better than what the best can do on a forum but sadly, that's always true.

Here's my final thought on the matter - some tri bikes are made to be long and low. Some tri bikes are made to be short and tall. You need a short and tallish bike. Your current bike is not one of those - it was forced into a position to work for you. The Speedmax is not one of those - but it too can be put into a position to work for you.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, I do have the TSP installed as well, positioned to make the reach shorter. So I have tons of room get longer if I need it.

I will probably go ahead and get the rise bars since my base bar and brakes are like 5" below the pads. I feel like I'm still in aero! Hopefully the rise bar is taller for the pad mounts like you say. What's another $279 at this point?!

Thanks again!
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Pad Reach: 435mm
Pad Stack: 620mm

Looking at the Speedmax CF.
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Ian, wow that is such a detailed reply and i truly appreciate it. My fit was done a year ago when i was still relatively new to the sport. I have been training for a year and my aim is to go lower.

Would the CF be a better option than the SLX in this case since the bars are not integrated and hence more adjustable allowing me to have a higher stack?

Are sizings the same?

Lastly, if i were to heed your suggestions to get an SLX, it would be a clear size medium right, and not in between sizes with a small
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks in advance for your help! Looking for size and adjustment recommendations for the Speedmax CF.

Here is the data from my recent fit:

Arm pad reach: 449mm
Arm pad stack: 615mm

Saddle height: 731mm
Saddle setback: -36mm

Arm pad width: 243mm

Crank length: 170mm
Last edited by: rootscreative: Jan 13, 19 7:20
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Ian!

Looking for the CF and these are some measurements I can provide:
Height: 190cm
Inseam: 95.3cm
Sternal height: 157.3cm
Arm length: 64cm

According to a tri bike fit with aerobars on my road bike (although resulting in a non aggressive position imo)
Seat height: 84.2cm
Saddle position: 16.1cm
Armpad reach (according to the diagram it's from the middle of the saddle to the middle of the armpads): 60cm
Armpad drop (from top of the saddle to top of the armpads): 11.8cm

According to the PPS on Canyon site I'm clearly on L. Although it gives me a warning about my measurements since my inseam is very high (long legs, which is true) and it only seems to change with height changes which is not trustworthy I guess.
Since I'm looking to ride the bike in a rather aggressive position to make the purchase worthwile (progressively after getting accustomed to it for a while) would the XL also be a good fit to get more reach to get closer to the SLX bike?

Thank you so much!
Last edited by: cmart: Jan 13, 19 3:12
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [garg] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Hi Ian, wow that is such a detailed reply and i truly appreciate it. My fit was done a year ago when i was still relatively new to the sport. I have been training for a year and my aim is to go lower.

Would the CF be a better option than the SLX in this case since the bars are not integrated and hence more adjustable allowing me to have a higher stack?

Are sizings the same?

Lastly, if i were to heed your suggestions to get an SLX, it would be a clear size medium right, and not in between sizes with a small

garg,

You are a medium for sure on the SLX. The CF and SLX are not same in terms of fit. The CF would fit you better than the SLX and if you went with the CF it too would be a medium, with a 70mm stem and all the spacers the result would be a Pad Y of 692 (compared to the SLX at 650)

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [st001rtg] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Pad Reach: 435mm
Pad Stack: 620mm

Looking at the Speedmax CF.

st001rtg,

It's gonna be an XS in the CF, it comes with a 70mm stem and that'll work for you. You'll need to bring the pads back one hole from max to get 435. As to the Pad Y - the max on the XS is 640 so you'll be well within it's capabilities.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [Laurens4790] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Thanks Ian. I agree with you, and probably first do a proper fit.

Refering to your advice, I am looking to buy a CF (not a SLX). Would this change your recomendation for the bike size? Thanks!

Laurens4790,

Ok good, thanks for the clarification. I'm still going off of the predicted Pad Y of 647 and Pad X of 503. When I apply those numbers to the CF the prescription is...size large. That bike comes with a 90mm stem and you can mount the pads dead center. To get the 647 use just one 20mm spacer under the stem.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [cmart] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Hey Ian!
Looking for the CF and these are some measurements I can provide:
Height: 190cm , Seat height: 84.2cm, long legs.
Thank you so much!

cmart,

Firstly, thanks for surviving my rant on that other thread.

A real fit by an educated, experienced fitter who uses a dynamic fit bike is the only way to be sure of your Pad Y and Pad X. If a pre-fit's not gonna happen then we look to other options. Canyon's PPS is good. I'm using a formula that I think is a bit better.
I think your Pad Y 674 and your Pad X is 502.

The Pad Y range on a CF size large is 627-714 - your 674 falls very nicely in there. The Pad X range on the CF size large is 488-513 and your 502 gives you 11mm of room to go longer.

I want you to have all the information on your options so you can make the best decision. so....

The Pad Y range on a CF size XL is 654-741 - your 674 still works, you've got 20mm to go down (and then another ~45mm if you had to with a customized under-mount). The Pad X range on the CF size XL is 508-533 - your 502 means that the XL, as it comes with the 90mm stem, is too long by 6mm even with the pads all the way back. You could order an 80mm stem and solve this, or, maybe a 6mm longer cockpit is acceptable.

Get back to me here if you have more questions.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [rootscreative] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Thanks in advance for your help! Looking for size and adjustment recommendations for the Speedmax CF.
Here is the data from my recent fit:
Arm pad reach: 449mm
Arm pad stack: 615mm


rootscreative,

The XS in the CF is going to fit you well. All the stock bits will nail it and pretty much in the middle ranges. The 70mm stem that comes stock is perfect for your numbers. You'll only have 20mm of spacer under the stem. You'll be right in the middle of the arm mount holes too.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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No worries. That's exactly what brings me to the CF instead of the SLX. Because I think that all the integration are (very) marginal gains that most probably won't matter as long as I'm not fighting for seconds in Kona ;) And since the CF seems to be quite adjustable I'm pretty confident in giving it a try.

Thanks so much for the recommendations! With these options the XL might even make more sense because it's possible to go down with the stem up to 70mm giving me a nice range. With the L I'm pretty much maxed out from start.
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [drseamus] [ In reply to ]
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Jeremy,

Okay, Pad Y of 691, Pad X of 534. We know we're on a Medium to make the seat height of 705mm.

For the 2019 SLX in a Medium the Pad X of 534 is no problem. It would be the long stem and pads mounted in the stock mounts one hole hole shy of the maximum rearward position. The problem is the Pad Y of 691. The highest the 2019 SLX medium goes is 650 - and 40mm is a sizeable distance. Even the 2018 SLX maxed out at 675. This bike is longish and low. And the CF would be an issue too.

Now I need to check with you. Where did your Pad Y and Pad X - where'd those numbers come from? Can I see a pick of you, in profile in that position?

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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I got fit by a local guy on a guru and I felt very comfortable in the fit but know I'll need to go lower. The numbers I walked out the door with are not the pad x/y numbers and I can take a picture when I'm home. I called him later and got the pad x/y numbers over the phone so it's quite possible they were calculated wrong. My current bike isn't set up in the new fit though so I can't take a picture of me on the bike.
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Ian -

Thanks so much for the detailed feedback. Is there a greater range on the 2019 Speedmax 8.0? That is, can the lower end bike accommodate the Pad Y of 565?

Cheers!




ianpeace wrote:
Quote:
Thanks for the feedback... so this means the 2019 Speedmax SLX in size small would not fit well?


sfjab,

In the world of bike fit (my world of bike fit) I'm okay with seat height being 1mm off, maybe 2mm. I mean that could be the difference in training in a bike short (thick pad) and racing in a tri short (thin pad). And I'm okay with other stuff being 10-20mm off of perfect - like Pad X for example because elbows can hang off the back of the pad and elbows can be stuck in the middle of the pad and that can be a pretty big sway.

We're talking about your Pad Y of 545. This speaks to your arm pad elevation, also known as your "drop" - and man, you ride low. There are aero fanatics on this site who immediately think down is fast and up is slow. There are also some folks with real wind tunnel experience who know that lower is not always faster. Also, Slowman and myself and many others have found that as we get a touch older (Dan's in his early 60s, I just turned 50) our necks simply will not stand craning up high to have a safe field of vision up the road. To that end we raise our arm pads 5-10mm to alleviate the problem. All this is a primer to me saying the the lowest the new size small will go is a Pad Y of 565 and that's 20mm higher than your current desire to ride at Pad Y 545 (just as an aside lowest a Ventum will go is 595). So you ask would it "not fit well" - if you're Pad Y is really 545 that's 20mm lower then 565 and 20min in pad height is not "noise" to me, that seems like a bit too much, it wouldn't be optimal - it would be comfortable, but not optimal.

Ian
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Seat height. 700
Stack. 605
Reach. 440 back of pad.
Pad width. 185 center to center of pad

If you can’t use back of pad. Can you give me the pad messurement so i can provide you the correct numbers.

Looking at the slx

Thank you for all the information here
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