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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Ian

Thanks for doing this!

Pad x = 385 back of pad
Pad y = 720

From a bike fit for my first tt bike.

188cm tall
81cm inseam if that helps

Thanks
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [newbike1] [ In reply to ]
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newbike1 wrote:
Hi Ian

Thanks for doing this!

Pad x = 385 back of pad
Pad y = 720

From a bike fit for my first tt bike.

188cm tall
81cm inseam if that helps

Thanks

i recommend you do not attempt to buy a bike to fit those coordinates. at least not yet. i want to see your position first. and then let's have a "fit negotiation". then we'll talk about a bike that matches your coordinates.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
newbike1 wrote:
Hi Ian

Thanks for doing this!

Pad x = 385 back of pad
Pad y = 720

From a bike fit for my first tt bike.

188cm tall
81cm inseam if that helps

Thanks

i recommend you do not attempt to buy a bike to fit those coordinates. at least not yet. i want to see your position first. and then let's have a "fit negotiation". then we'll talk about a bike that matches your coordinates.

Thanks for your reply. Are those values pretty out there? Unfortunately I don’t currently have a picture to hand from the fit, and this is for my first tt bike so no current position picture either. Obviously it’s not the same but I ride a regular 58cm frame road bike that’s stock except for the saddle without issues. Should a tt bike require that much modification? Sorry I’m new to this as I’m sure you can tell.
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [newbike1] [ In reply to ]
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newbike1 wrote:
Slowman wrote:
newbike1 wrote:
Hi Ian

Thanks for doing this!

Pad x = 385 back of pad
Pad y = 720

From a bike fit for my first tt bike.

188cm tall
81cm inseam if that helps

Thanks


i recommend you do not attempt to buy a bike to fit those coordinates. at least not yet. i want to see your position first. and then let's have a "fit negotiation". then we'll talk about a bike that matches your coordinates.


Thanks for your reply. Are those values pretty out there? Unfortunately I don’t currently have a picture to hand from the fit, and this is for my first tt bike so no current position picture either. Obviously it’s not the same but I ride a regular 58cm frame road bike that’s stock except for the saddle without issues. Should a tt bike require that much modification? Sorry I’m new to this as I’m sure you can tell.

385mm to back of pad is, for profile design, 425 to pad center. so, you're 720mm x 425mm to pad center, and here's how people tend to be positioned, if you place those coordinates on a cartesian graph.



there's a slope, roughly, and if you pick a point on the small end, say, 575mm x 430mm, and on the large end, maybe 675mm x 550mm, and you draw a line between them, that's the center of the slope. as you vary from that slope you vary from the norm and, in this case, the norm is represented by pro males (red squares).

if you're going to vary, then, why? because you're not a pro. okay. how much variance does that earn? because i'm long leg short torso, or the other way around. because i don't stipulate to the norm, and i think the cockpit should be longer, pads further in front. okay. but that's not you.

there's one person among all slowtwitchers - i don't know who - that has a pad xy roughly similar to yours. it's the blue triangle at the far upper left of the chart.

if you're going to be set up that way, okay, but, why? if i was going to drop a lot of coin on a nice new tri bike, i'd want to answer that question. if you can successfully answer it, you're satisfied with it, fine. just, what ian is going to do is precisely, mathematically, match a bike to fit underneath your pads. i recommend you make sure that's where your pads ought to be, first.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Here's one:
Rider:
1,64m female, but short legs at 72cm inseam (63cm saddle height on her road bike).
Is she too short for a size XS Women's Speedmax ?
On the website it says 67cm minimum...

Louis :-)
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for offering this. I'm looking at a Canyon CF SLX (trading out of a 51cm Cervelo P3 with 165mm cranks).

Below are my metrics. The online calculator suggested a small frame but a local fitter suggested medium so I wanted another opinion.

Height 5' 7"
Weight 130lbs
Inseam 33"
Torso 27"
Shoulder width 17"
Arm length 25"

Pad Y = 545mm
Pad X = 470mm

Caveat, I measured everything solo so the metrics are likely not as clean as they could be but hopefully they are close!
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [madfoot101] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Thanks for the response and noted on all of it. I am 6'4". Maybe worth going back in Jan to my fitter for a prescriptive fit if I really want to take down some TTs....

Madfoot101,

Circling back on this..... I'm absolutely certain that a complete fit from an educated, experienced fitter with a dynamic fit but (and they gotta check off all three of that criteria) is the best out come but based on your height and your saddle height here is my prediction: your Pad Y should be 680 and your Pad X should be 517. I would really love to hear back from you after a good fit and see how close my numbers are to the fit outcome.

Ian

PS. If you want me to prescribe a Canyon Speedmax SLX from my numbers hit me back here and I'll follow through.

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [JFGOTRI] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Thanks for the response and noted on all of it. I am 6'4". Maybe worth going back in Jan to my fitter for a prescriptive fit if I really want to take down some TTs....

JFGOTRI

There are two paragraphs of explanation below...at the bottom I'll ask for the saddle height on your Venge, if you get me that I can act.

I could - with great reluctance - prescribe a Canyon Speedmax from the Pad Y/Pad X that you took from your Venge with clipon aerobars but I really don't want to. Let me explain why. The Venge is a road bike and while there are lots of differences between a road bike and a TT/Tri bike the one difference that's super hard to fake is the seat angle. This is especially true for the modern Venge that has that sexy, proprietary design seat post. The steepest you can get the seat angle (or, another way of saying this: the least amount of saddle nose set-back) would be by sliding the saddle as far forward on its rails as you are willing to go and then riding your TTs perched on the nose of the saddle. Even doing all that I don't think you'd be close to your optimal position for TT. The second big difference that's a bit easier to fake but still problematic is the height of the headtube (AKA Stack). You can try to strip out all the spacers under the stem, replace the headset top cap with one of John Cobbs razor thin options. You can put on a -17 stem or something pointing down, down, down. You can do some sort of under-mount aerobar so that the arm pads sit right on top of base bar - all of this to try and get an arm pad elevation that speaks to the TT position but you're fighting the frame the whole time and it's just not meant to be. Even if you have the best TT version that a Venge can be....it is very like no where near what your ultimate TT position is/can/should be.

So... I have your overall height of 1765mm and I know you have long legs. Tell me the seat height on your Venge and I'll come up with a Pad Y and Pad X that's pretty darn close. Here's my caveat - there's nothing better than a complete fit from a bike fitter who is educated, experienced, and has a dynamic fit bike - they gotta have all three of those elements to do the job right.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [Barney11] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
About to pull the trigger on the 2018 version currently on special CF SLX.

typical S vs M. ( site says Small )

- height = 177.5
- inseam = 81
- saddle height 69-70
- x = 46
- y = 63

( I would like at least 20mm either side with x & y )

any advice ?

Barney11,

If I'm reading this correctly...your Pad Y is 630 and your Pad X is 460. With that I'm good to go.

If you get the small you'll need....a rise bar with a short stem, a single 60mm spacer + a single 5mm spacer and a TSP (Team Switch Plate). The rise bar, the 60mm spacer and the TSP are all aftermarket items that do not come stock. If you did the small with the stock flat bar and maxed out the pedestals (a single 60 + a single 20) you'd have a Pad Y of 625, that's 5mm lower than your spec. If you passed on the TSP and just mounted the pads as far back as they go on the stock mounts (with the short stem) your Pad X would be 466, that's 26mm longer in cockpit than you like (and that's prolly a bridge too far).

If you got the medium you can go with the stock flat bar, short stem and one single 60mm spacer (that's aftermarket). You also have to get the TSP and even with that the pads in their most extreme position will result in a Pad X of 462 - that's 2mm longer than you're spec 2mm is typically something folks can't notice.

Now, let's pretend you're in my fit studio, you've just paid me $299 for a complete fit on my dynamic fit bike and we came to this Pad Y 630 and Pad X of 460. It would be my job there as well to advise you on Small vs Medium in the Canyon Speedmax SLX. I'd say get the small, pony up for the bits you need to make it perfect (rise bar, 60mm spacer, TSP) and you'll be happy for a decade, and you'll have some room to move if your position changes a bit.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Ian,

as with all so far, appreciate what you are doing here.

My fit co-ordinates are:

Arm pad reach: 428mm (to back of pad)
Arm pad stack: 641mm (to top of pad)
Saddle height: 728mm (165mm cranks)

Saddle set back: -50mm (for 76 degrees, may come forward)

Arm pad width: 237mm

First position back after long break - expect position will get progressively lower through time so some scope for lower (and probably longer) would be appreciated.

Think I am a medium but not sure if my reach is going to be an issue on a medium. I am also looking at CF rather than CF SLX

Thanks
Last edited by: hodgey: Dec 16, 18 20:47
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [hodgey] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Ian,

Really appreciate you doing this.

Fresh off a fit:
- Arm rest reach to center of pad: 470mm
- Arm rest stack to top of pad: 580mm
- Saddle height: 690mm
- Saddle to base bar height difference: 140mm
- Saddle to pad height difference: 85mm
- Pad width: 18.5cm
- Crank length: 165mm
- Extensions: likely L bend


I'm 176cm / 5'8" with a very short inseam (78.3) which usually makes Canyon bikes a good fit for me (I ride an Aeroad XS).


My fitter mentioned an S in CF SLX (2019 model - I'm based in Europe) was likely bang on but any advice on stem/pad/etc. would be much appreciated.


Let me know if you need any other fit metrics.


Thanks!
Bertrand
Last edited by: Bertrand: Dec 15, 18 6:17
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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ianpeace wrote:
Scott,
You're in great hands at Fit Werx and on their Purely Custom Dynamic Fit Bike. Go back, go through the process again. See how your position has changed and be sure to leave with Pax Y and Pax X to center of pad. Get back to me and let's make sure we are dead-on for this Speedmax prescription.

Ian

Hi Ian,

Just did follow up assessment with Ian Buchanan at Fitwerx and he did in fact tweak things a bit. He made me a bit lower and bit longer. New numbers:
Pad Y: 64 cm
Pad X: 52.5 cm This is to center of pad.


Can't wait to hear what you have to say!

Scott

Team Zoot
2019 Sponsors: Canyon Bikes, Garmin, Smith Optics, Gatorade, Zealios Skin Care & Sun Protection, Speedfill Products, Base Performance, Ottolock, Theragun, Boco Gear, ORR Carbon Wheel Systems, Giddy Up Multisport
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [rsmoylan] [ In reply to ]
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Does Canyon have a 100mm stem for the CF? What is the angle on it and or the 90mm.
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [vladi] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
i'm looking to get Speedmax CF 8 LTD for my 15yo daughter, mostly for sprint triathlons and occasional TT. So, Female, tall, skinny, very athletic, never ridden TT bike before.

vladi,

Most of the prescriptions I've made on this thread have been about the SLX bike but you're asking about the Canyon Speedmax CF 8.0 LTD and I want to be able to nail the details on that bike as well. First let me say that the SLX is a straight up "superbike" (a bike that can ONLY use an OEM {Original Equipment Manufacturer} or proprietary design stem). The CF is not a full blown superbike but I'm hesitant to consider it a complete mortal-bike either (Mortal-bike: we size by Stack and Reach), and here's why...many of Canyon's bikes come with a steer tube that is 1 1/4 inch in diameter (nearly the entire rest of the bike world lives by 1 1/8 in steer and some 1in). There just aren't that many stems from which to choose for the big steerers. That's not a worry here either for two reasons: 1) Canyon makes a 70, 80, and 90mm stem for the CF AND it's built with Profile Design Subsonic 35As and those have some adjust-ability.

I've pulled some pertinent bits of data from the info you gave me (thanks for all that) and I'm going with a Pad Y of 620 and Pad X of 470.

With that in mind: she could fit on either a small or a medium but with the small she's right near the edge of the Pad X max of 472. That's not a huge issue as the small comes spec'd with the 70mm stem and she'd have the ability to get longer with an 80mm stem. This is really a toss up for me, I think she'd come to love either size. If I had to pick one it might be the medium just because I know it has a longer front-center (I don't know who much longer, but the wheel base is 13mm longer) so I think the medium might be a tiny bit more stable in windy conditions.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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ianpeace wrote:
1) Canyon makes a 70, 80, and 90mm stem for the CF AND it's built with Profile Design Subsonic 35As and those have some adjust-ability.

that's a big improvement over previous versions of the CF that I've fit... OEM equipment was preventing good fits for athletes with certain body types.

Eric Reid
AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Chapel Hill, NC
Aerodynamic Optimized Bike Fitting, Retul Pre-Purchase Bike Fitting, USAT Level 1 Triathlon Coaching, Nutrition
Ask me: Scody Optimized Speed Suits | CeramicSpeed Oversized Pulley Systems | HUUB Skinsuits and Wetsuits | Ventum Bicycles and Frames
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you so much for a super-detailed reply, Ian! This is very helpful. Interestingly, this puts her right into a sweep spot on you pad position graph.
Last edited by: vladi: Dec 16, 18 14:44
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [louisn] [ In reply to ]
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louisn wrote:
Here's one:
Rider:
1,64m female, but short legs at 72cm inseam (63cm saddle height on her road bike).
Is she too short for a size XS Women's Speedmax ?
On the website it says 67cm minimum...

Louis :-)


Hi Ian,

Here are the numbers I have from the bike fitter on her last TT setup (on a road bike):

Saddle height from center BB to center top of saddle : 64 cm
Center of BB to forearm pads (horizontal): 45.6 cm
Saddle nose to forearm pads (horizontal): 48.9 cm
Saddle setback (nose to center BB): -3.3 cm
Cockpit length ( forearm pads to tip of extensions): 27 cm
Forearm pads width: 16.5 cm
Extensions width: 8.5 cm
Forearm pads drop (from saddle height): 2,4 cm

Thanks for the help. I would love to be able to put my hands on a Canyon in Canada (if they're not too ''high'' that is)

Louis :-)
Last edited by: louisn: Dec 16, 18 18:47
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [louisn] [ In reply to ]
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When I enter my daughter's numbers in the bike fit assistant on the Canyon website, the system says it's not possible ... lol !
I have to "cheat" and add two inches to her inseam for the system to work. For arm pads reach , no problems there as she has a long torso.

Notice: I have the same problem with Argon 18. On their chart, the size XS states the minimum saddle height is 64cm, but at Argon 18 they say minimum saddle height sould be 67cm .... hum :-/ !!

Louis :-)
Last edited by: louisn: Dec 17, 18 11:08
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 

JFGOTRI

There are two paragraphs of explanation below...at the bottom I'll ask for the saddle height on your Venge, if you get me that I can act.

I could - with great reluctance - prescribe a Canyon Speedmax from the Pad Y/Pad X that you took from your Venge with clipon aerobars but I really don't want to. Let me explain why. The Venge is a road bike and while there are lots of differences between a road bike and a TT/Tri bike the one difference that's super hard to fake is the seat angle. This is especially true for the modern Venge that has that sexy, proprietary design seat post. The steepest you can get the seat angle (or, another way of saying this: the least amount of saddle nose set-back) would be by sliding the saddle as far forward on its rails as you are willing to go and then riding your TTs perched on the nose of the saddle. Even doing all that I don't think you'd be close to your optimal position for TT. The second big difference that's a bit easier to fake but still problematic is the height of the headtube (AKA Stack). You can try to strip out all the spacers under the stem, replace the headset top cap with one of John Cobbs razor thin options. You can put on a -17 stem or something pointing down, down, down. You can do some sort of under-mount aerobar so that the arm pads sit right on top of base bar - all of this to try and get an arm pad elevation that speaks to the TT position but you're fighting the frame the whole time and it's just not meant to be. Even if you have the best TT version that a Venge can be....it is very like no where near what your ultimate TT position is/can/should be.

So... I have your overall height of 1765mm and I know you have long legs. Tell me the seat height on your Venge and I'll come up with a Pad Y and Pad X that's pretty darn close. Here's my caveat - there's nothing better than a complete fit from a bike fitter who is educated, experienced, and has a dynamic fit bike - they gotta have all three of those elements to do the job right.

Ian[/quote]
Hi Ian,

Thanks for the explanations. I did measure it and it's at 766mm if I take the lowest part of the saddle and about 770mm if I go straight following seat post tube from center of BB. I have 86-87cm inseam.

Also, I think I could easily have a longer Pad X reach. Probably would be more confortable with at least +10-15mm (would give 460 to 465mm).

Thanks for helping.

JF
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [newbike1] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
newbike1,

I've held off from responding because once Slowman weighs in....well, what's needed to be said has been said. I want to make sure you get the right bike under you. To that end....I was thinking I could recommend a fitter who fits the criteria that I require to be considered good: educated, experienced, and can do your fit on their dynamic fit bike. If you want to follow up on that let me know where you're located and I can try and come up with a fitter.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
Quote Reply
Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [louisn] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I have to "cheat" and add two inches to her inseam for the system to work. For arm pads reach , no problems there as she has a long torso.

louisn

The problem we're up against is saddle height. I don't have minimal saddle height for the SLX bike but for the CF the lowest it goes is 670 and she's at 630 on her road ride and 640 on her TT fit. at 164cm in height that's our dilemma. I even worry a bit about stand over height in this situation as well.

This thread is pretty focused on Pad Y and Pad X to prescribe the right size bike with the right front end configuration but if the rider is so tiny that we can't get the seat height right then we can't go forward in the rest of the fit. I want to recommend this article, get back to me here if you want to discuss... https://www.slowtwitch.com/...Down_To_It_6337.html

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
Quote Reply
Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the replay Ian.

I was afraid you would refer me to 650c wheels...
Why afraid ? Because my twin daughters are racing in UCI sanctioned races, and from what I witness, first of all it seems there is very limited choices when it comes to 650c UCI ''crested'' TT bike frames. And second, I just checked for 650c wheels on Zipp and HED websites. Nothing there for the last 6 years or so.... :-/ ...
EDIT: I read your link to the end, it seems there are a few options still available. I'll do a search and see if these wheels are UCI approved.


Louis :-)
Last edited by: louisn: Dec 17, 18 20:01
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ianpeace wrote:
Scott,
You're in great hands at Fit Werx and on their Purely Custom Dynamic Fit Bike. Go back, go through the process again. See how your position has changed and be sure to leave with Pax Y and Pax X to center of pad. Get back to me and let's make sure we are dead-on for this Speedmax prescription.

Ian

Just throwing this out there again, in case you missed it.

Hi Ian,

Just did follow up assessment with Ian Buchanan at Fitwerx and he did in fact tweak things a bit. He made me a bit lower and bit longer. New numbers:
Pad Y: 64 cm
Pad X: 52.5 cm This is to center of pad.


Can't wait to hear what you have to say!

Scott




Team Zoot
2019 Sponsors: Canyon Bikes, Garmin, Smith Optics, Gatorade, Zealios Skin Care & Sun Protection, Speedfill Products, Base Performance, Ottolock, Theragun, Boco Gear, ORR Carbon Wheel Systems, Giddy Up Multisport
Quote Reply
Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Ian
Thank you for doing this

saddle high 741 mm
saddle set back 3 mm
Pad reach to back of pad 474 mm
stack 640 mm
Height 181 cm
Cranks 172.5

Thanks


Nico
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Re: Official FIT ASSISTANCE for Canyon Speedmax CF and CF SLX [sfjab] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
Below are my metrics. The online calculator suggested a small frame but a local fitter suggested medium so I wanted another opinion.
Pad Y = 545mm
Pad X = 470mm


sfjab,

For the 2018 Speedmax SLX it can only be the small (the lowest the pads will go on the medium is 555 (and that's with the drop bar, if you go with the stock flat bar the lowest is 570). So, for you it's a size small with the flat bar, short stem and slammed (that is to say - no spacers between the aerbars and the base bar). You can mount the arm pads in the stock mounts and just move 'em back one or two holes of center to get your Pad X of 470.

For the 2019 Speedmax SLX the lowest the size small goes is 565. Your Pad X is not problem: short stem, pads back slightly.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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