I guess, as with anything, it comes down to opinion. Everyone thinks their idea is right and that is set in stone. Not everyone cares to look at the other side of the coin. That said I consider myself a christian and if asked will gladly share my take on it. If that leads you to being a christian too..good for both of us. I do not however condone the heavy handed tactics of some people/religions where they are right and you are wrong to the extent you either change to their ways or die (or in a less harsh vein...I want nothing to do with you). Sadly I cannot say with all conviction that what I know is unquestionably right (I have no irrefuteably evidence that will allow me to do so) but I do know what I know. Right or wrong when all is said and done...we'll surely know. I wont even bother putting on flame protection for this one as I fully realize my comments have opened me up to being a fence sitting hypocrite..so be it.

So they feel better about the religeon they have chosen. May also be that they have doubts about their own beliefs...

I'll probably get flamed for this, power and economics. The more members a religion has the more power it wields in society, the more likely it is that it's views will be seen as the norm. The more members a religion has the more tithe it recieves, the more money it has. this money in turn may be used to further the cause/doctrine of said church and we are back to power again. Feel free to disagree, I have my asbestos undies on.

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Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*

Not a religious scholar here, but I'll take a stab at this historical question using modern marketing as a lens.

I think when many religions formed (before hollywood, bollywood, MTV, mass media, etc.), each religion was in a competitive marketplace of ideas. Each had to convince its potential adherents of two things: (1) This new 'blank' religion was the BEST, THE ONE, whatever ... and that (2) all other religions (blankety-blank and blankety-blank) were WRONG, BAD, etc.

So when the new adherents picked up the new religion, they became self-contained little marketing machines by practicing and talking up the 'new' religion and killing off the 'old' religion by telling all who would listen that the 'old religion was WRONG and very, very BAAAD...

So I think the desire of one religion to indoctrinate others with their beliefs has its origin in this process as way for the new religion (in ancient, pre-mass media times) to gain a foothold in the world. Simplistic, but I think basically true.

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Where would you want to swim ?

We need someone who supports this to chime in.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

For the exact same reason that you do it; although in your case it is bicycles/fit. How much more so would you give your knowledge to others if you thought it would have eternal consequences? In the same light, how fervently do you discuss the need for a helmet before a group leaves your store for a ride you sponsor?

It's much more fundamental than any of the other posters have suggested. In the Bible, Jesus gives a directive to believers that's commonly known as the Great Commission which says

But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had sent them. When they saw him, they bowed down to him, but some doubted. Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Matthew 28:16-20

Therefore, Christians have been commanded by God to "invest energy in trying to convince other people, not necessarily of their own religion, that their religion is good or "the best" or "the way"? Additionally, Christians believe that the only way to salvation is through belief in Jesus Christ and that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. As a result, to want anything less than salvation for your neighbor is actually hypocritical.

Now that is a very good arguement.

Ooops! I forgot to add the "Eternal Consequences" factor.

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Where would you want to swim ?

Good point, been too long since I read the bible, forgot that part.

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Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*

When the Gods of other religions make a similar decree, how do we resolve this competition for numbers?

My experience is that it is done on the battlefield.

I don't like that.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Damn right.

You don't have to be a history expert to see how many folks have been murdered, tortured, dismembered, and who knows what else over "religion".

Even Mr. J.C. would have been appalled.

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Where would you want to swim ?

I have a two part answer for you.

1) The "Gods" of other religions all lived, and then died, and therefore can not promise the eternal salvation that Christ guarantees through his death and resurrection.

2) That's where the faith part comes in.

Solving the my god/your god debate on the battlefield is a human solution, not a Divine one.

"You don't have to be a history expert to see how many folks have been murdered, tortured, dismembered, and who knows what else over "religion". "



Not nearly as many as have been murdered, tortured, and opressed in the name of various Godless ideologies. Not anywhere near as many.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

What needs resolution? Some people think they don't need to ride with a helmet, you think they do. There is no problem unless you decide that they must wear a helmet or you will kill them. (a properly fitting bike is another matter though, some things require extreme measures)

Yes, it kind of flies in the face of the whole "Thall shall not murder" thing. But as I mentioned to Tom, that's a human solution, not a Divine one. Just because I say I'm a Christian doesn't mean I am. Only my actions can prove that. Triathlon is not the only place that has posers.

I would differ with your assertion.

Show me some numbers regarding whether religion (or war over religion, religious culture, etc.) or "various Godless ideologies" have murdered, tortured, dismembered, etc. more people.

Ultimately the point is unprovable either way. But religion has NO EXCUSE. Those numbers SHOULD be ZERO.

And they are not.

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Where would you want to swim ?

> When the Gods of other religions make a similar decree, how do we resolve this competition

Are you talking future tense? Or past tense? Because in the present tense, I have this question: What other of any of the major religions have or follow a similar decree? I'd like to know.

I've simply never seen a Jewish, Hindu, Islamic, or Buddhist missionary. Not saying they don't exist - just that I've never met one, or even heard of one. But my own grandmother was a Baptist missionary. Catholic missionaries are world famous (especially in say, Latin America). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) have what is arguably the most organized and aggressive missionary program on the planet.

Where are the Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, Sikh, Jainist, Wiccan missionaries? (especially the first three, which are quite huge, though not as big as Christianity)

-Zo

It's about love. Simple as that. Read the Bible and see they message of love repeated throughout. It's about love. Those seeking power and killing have gone astray and forgotten priority #1, and do not represent the rest ... just as Hitler doesn't represent Germans.

Do your own research and test the accuracy of the Bible. Read how the Gospels stand up against other ancient texts. Read how the spread of Christianity compares to the spread of other religions. Look at it from a historical context. read about what Jesus' enemies had to say about him.

I'd start with "The case for Christ" for $10. Something this important is worth $10 and a few evenings readings. make sure you really believe what you believe ... no matter what side your on. There is an incredible amount of evidence (Biblical and non-Biblical) out there. Most of it points to one direction (IMO).

It's about love. Find out for yourself.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

One of my favorite quotes concerning religion is the following:

"There is enough religion in the world to make men hate, but not enough to make them love"

True, no? Oddly enough, it was spoken by R. DeNiro playing satan in "Angel Heart".

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"The will to win means nothing without the will to prepare" - Juma Ikangaa

http://www.litespeed.com

   "Just because I say I'm a Christian doesn't mean I am. Only my actions can prove that. Triathlon is not the only place that has posers."

Great line. So many people talk. So few ACT.

Please explain this, though--many Christians have told me that actions don't ultimately matter, just faith, and asking for help from Mr. J.C. So who is right? You or them (the other Chrisitians)?

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Where would you want to swim ?

"Christians believe that the only way to salvation is through belief in Jesus Christ and that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. As a result, to want anything less than salvation for your neighbor is actually hypocritical."

In some places, proselytizing can be considered "hate speech." In fact, if you follow the logic eloquently put forth by Matt, it is really "love" speech.

Doing it at the point of a sword, gun, or Boeing 767 is not what God intended, however. Because religions are run by humans, they are not perfect.

Perhaps I could offer a slightly different hypothesis. If you believe in Christ, or in good and evil for that matter, then you acknowledge the existence of evil. Christians typically refer to the embodiment of evil as Satan or the Devil. If Satan exists then it's safe to say the he's active in the world and not just sitting at home toying with Mr. Tibbs' mind. If Satan is active, then it seems likely that he's doing things to derail the good in the world. Some of this good is being carried out in the name of Christ, so I would argue that since God and Satan aren't really on speaking terms, that Satan would spend most of his time trying to derail the good that's being carried out specifically in the name of God. If all of this holds true, then I would reason that most of the evil that's carried out in the name of God like murder, torture, dismemberment, etc., is actually the work of Satan. Just a thought.

Problem with someone riding without a helmet and being killed is that it is not just their problem- when they become injured/killed it instantly becomes my problem.

Riding without a helmet jeapordizes our sport and my business, is selfish and ignorant.

People riding without helmets resulted in the following damages to our cycling community in 2003:

1. Forced us to drop sponsorship of a local club, that is an otherwise excellent club, becasue we cannot guarantee our insurance coverage on rides where everyone is not wearing a helmet.

2. Forced us to pull down a real-time, live Internet "ride board" that listed all local group rides.

3. Forced us to cancel all organized group rides.

People who don;t wear a helmet affect everyone, not just themselves.

Wasn't this about religion? :)

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com