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Re: November Swim Thread [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmm....here in Tel Aviv this week. Got to the hotel at 4:30 am, asleep around 6a. Went for a swim in the hotel pool: a 25m filtered-sea water pool. Apparently I continuously suck water into my nose..and sea water does NOT agree with my nose. Had another USRPT set planned. Bailed after 1000m from swallowing sea water through my nose.

Warmup:

200m
2x50 kick (on back)
2x(2x50 single-arm/swim)

MS:
7x100(:20)

bailed....
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Re: November Swim Thread [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
Zenmaster28 wrote:
gary p wrote:


75's on 1:15, target pace < :54.00
1st fail @ rep 15 (extra interval rest)
2nd fail @ rep 18 (extra interval rest)
set failed @ rep 21


I think I saw you do something like this before. Am I understanding this right that you are doing 75s until you miss one at the target pace, you take extra rest and then continue, repeat until a 3rd miss and that's what ends the set? I like it.


Looks like a USRPT set (20 seconds rest, fail to hold pace 3x and you're out (or twice in a row). I started doing a similar set twice a week a couple weeks ago, but I'm doing 100s.


Yes, that's an Ultra Short Race Pace Ttraining set at my 500 free race pace. If I miss a target time, I rest an interval, then resume the set. 3 misses total, or two consecutive misses, ends the set. Cap for this particular set is 32 repeats. If I get there before the three fails (or two consecutive fails), it's time to advance the pace for subsequent training sets. Making the first 20 on target is also a trigger to advance the pace.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Nov 14, 17 5:45
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Re: November Swim Thread [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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exhale through your nose too :-)

7 mi run w/ 5 x 1.05 mi @ 8:34 pace
825 yd swim

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: November Swim Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Tigerchik wrote:
I still worry about your passing out...


8.6 mi run
1.2 mi @ 8:13, 1.2 mi @ 8:06, 1 mi @ 8:00, 1 mi @ 7:53, 1 mi @ 7:47 (easy tenths between them)


1275 yd swim: main set 10 x 100 on 1:30

I am more scared than I am stupid, so I would not do anything pushing to the extremes where I might pass out. In any case, on Sunday I covered the full 25 m dolphin kick under water. Once I was 2/3 the way through I knew that if I stayed relaxed and streamlined while pushing hard and maintaining speed, I'd have enough speed to squirt to the other side....and I did. Monday I tried it again, just to make sure Sunday was not a fluke. Today, managed doing 3x25m underwater dolphin. Then I changed over to to over water fly and felt really smooth and relaxed....so then I tried to do 25m fly no breathing and really focused on the motion of my core, and kept it tight and snappy while minimizing vertical oscillation. For me overwater fly is way faster than underwater dolphin, so I knew I would get to the other side faster, but it also burns through more energy faster and creates more C02....but managed that too.

I realize this mainly falls into "feats of strength" but just in the last few days doing this, I feel I have done small things to my core/body/kick finish that translated already to actual fly and also to free.
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Re: November Swim Thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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7.6 mi run w/ 2.2 mi @ 8:13 and 2.5 mi @ 8:34
800 yd swim

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: November Swim Thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:

I am more scared than I am stupid, so I would not do anything pushing to the extremes where I might pass out.


Be careful. The thing with Shallow Water Blackout is that you don't necessarily feel like you are "pushing it to the extreme."

Your reflexive drive to abort a breath-holding exercise is triggered not by low O2 in your bloodstream, but by high levels of CO2. In anticipation of having to hold your breath, you may inadvertently hyperventilate ahead of time, driving down the base CO2 level in your blood. In such a case, it is possible that you may consume all the available O2 in your body before your CO2 level gets to that point which signals you to surface and breath. Several highly competent swimmers have inadvertently killed themselves this way.

Probably not gonna happen on a single 25, but doing consecutive 25's like that can be very risky.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Nov 15, 17 14:05
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Re: November Swim Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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1000m easy with Pb/band/paddle
5x200 on 10"r with pull & pb
10x100 on 15" with pb
10x50 on 20"r free*
300 easy cooldown with Pb.
3800m total.

* original plan called for 20x50... I'll get there. This was more pull work then I typically do so baby steps.
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Re: November Swim Thread [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:

I am more scared than I am stupid, so I would not do anything pushing to the extremes where I might pass out.


Be careful. The thing with Shallow Water Blackout is that you don't necessarily feel like you are "pushing it to the extreme."

Your reflexive drive to abort a breath-holding exercise is triggered not by low O2 in your bloodstream, but by high levels of CO2. In anticipation of having to hold your breath, you may inadvertently hyperventilate ahead of time, driving down the base CO2 level in your blood. In such a case, it is possible that you may consume all the available O2 in your body before your CO2 level gets to that point which signals you to surface and breath. Several highly competent swimmers have inadvertently killed themselves this way.

Probably not gonna happen on a single 25, but doing consecutive 25's like that can be very risky.

I think you guys are over exaggerating the risk in the sense that after I complete the 25m, when I get to the other side, I take two breaths and am able to swim freestyle back to the other side easy. It's not like I am sitting there recoverying for a minute before I can move again. Also I worked up to it in that most of the year inside every set, while at full speed in the other strokes, I am starting with a 7-10 kick push off (usually bringing me out to the 7-10m point of the pool and that's while going at full throttle already. But I understand what you are saying which is why I did not try this without fins and gradually built up with fins first and then without and just added a few meters of distance at a time. 25m is far on one hand, but time wise I doubt it is even 25-30 seconds (but I don't know for sure). I would think that 30 seconds is not really a long duration provided that you're not generating a boat load of C02 concentration? I have no clue how long I can hold me breath never bothered trying, but walking around 45 seconds seems pretty easy. Of course dolphin kicking is a ton more work than walking but still. Maybe try jogging on the treadmill at a grade and see what a a safe duration is at intensity....but length seems not that long anyway and its more a function of the technique to dolphin kick fast enough far enough (25m) in a reasonable time versus the breath holding part. I am guessing my ability to hold my breath did not change at all over the year, and it's just technique that got better. Previously, I would have just come up for air early because I time expired under water and needed to come up. Now I can just cover more distance with better streamline and propulsion? Or maybe I can hold me breath longer. It's probably trainable, but likely a useless thing to train toward...really I was trying to improve my dolphin kick, not my breath holding and I think I got better at the kick part.
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Re: November Swim Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Hello!
2017.11.15 06:00 CET, Hungary.


Main set:
400 WU choice
200 FC breath:3/5/7
100 FC rest: 20s
200 FC rest: 30s
300 FC rest: 40s
400 FC rest: 40s
300 FC rest: 40s
200 FC rest: 30s
100 FC rest: 20s
200 CD back/breast
Bonus:
600 pull bouy and paddles
Last edited by: KovacsK85: Nov 15, 17 22:58
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Re: November Swim Thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I think you guys are over exaggerating the risk in the sense that after I complete the 25m, when I get to the other side, I take two breaths and am able to swim freestyle back to the other side easy. It's not like I am sitting there recoverying for a minute before I can move again. Also I worked up to it in that most of the year inside every set, while at full speed in the other strokes, I am starting with a 7-10 kick push off (usually bringing me out to the 7-10m point of the pool and that's while going at full throttle already. But I understand what you are saying which is why I did not try this without fins and gradually built up with fins first and then without and just added a few meters of distance at a time. 25m is far on one hand, but time wise I doubt it is even 25-30 seconds (but I don't know for sure). I would think that 30 seconds is not really a long duration provided that you're not generating a boat load of C02 concentration? I have no clue how long I can hold me breath never bothered trying, but walking around 45 seconds seems pretty easy. Of course dolphin kicking is a ton more work than walking but still. Maybe try jogging on the treadmill at a grade and see what a a safe duration is at intensity....but length seems not that long anyway and its more a function of the technique to dolphin kick fast enough far enough (25m) in a reasonable time versus the breath holding part. I am guessing my ability to hold my breath did not change at all over the year, and it's just technique that got better. Previously, I would have just come up for air early because I time expired under water and needed to come up. Now I can just cover more distance with better streamline and propulsion? Or maybe I can hold me breath longer. It's probably trainable, but likely a useless thing to train toward...really I was trying to improve my dolphin kick, not my breath holding and I think I got better at the kick part.



I agree that a single 25 for a competent swimmer is not really a risk, especially with fins. I occasionally do the same.

I brought up Shallow Water Blackout not so much as a warning to you, personally, but mostly to others who might see this thread and think about taking this kind of exercise to another level. Trying to go for longer distances, or doing repeats of this kind of exercise without sufficient recovery time, is when the risks start to become real.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: November Swim Thread [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I brought up Shallow Water Blackout not so much as a warning to you, personally, but mostly to others who might see this thread and think about taking this kind of exercise to another level. Trying to go for longer distances, or doing repeats of this kind of exercise without sufficient recovery time, is when the risks start to become real.

x2 "do not try this at home"

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: November Swim Thread [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Gary, I watched the video and I see that the high end swimmers are doing this repeatedly. In my case, with fins, what I actually do is 25m as 15-20m underwater then kick (a very controlled distance) and complete the length kick on back, and then swim back free, repeat the same but return fly, and do 4x50 or 8x50 but no rest, all fins on. Once in a while if I have a big rest before this set, I start with the first one all the way underwater. I believe this has provided me with good conditioning and increasingly better form to set me up to do things without fins and also to help my fly and backstroke without fins.

Without fins, as I mentioned almost every wall push off is 7-10m underwater kicking. All of this I have been doing to strengthen my core. Once in a while with a lot of rest I go no fins pretty far to start off a kick set (that's how I got interested in this distance challenge to myself). I'll do the first one and go far after a long rest and then swim back free, and then grab the kick board and do more kick. Or I did a 50m easy kick, take a long rest and do one length for distance dolphin, swim back free and then grab the kick bard. Thanks for the warning on not doing repeats. Being a competitive person I could easily get sucked into that. Till now, I have been focused largely on my form, not the number and have been taking decent rest before as you can see from the above.
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Re: November Swim Thread [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Also i could add, that whenever I do a wall push off or I am doing dolphin kicking starts to 15ish m with fins as part of a set I am kicking hard. The times I have tried to go for distance, I would say that i am kicking "easy-medium" for 2/3 trying to focus on hand/arm head torpedo position and doing a controlled streamline kick out of the core and keeping feet tight and not letting the flop all over the place. It's only in the final 1/3 of the effort that I kick hard, using this as a technical training exercise for 2/3 before it becomes an oxygen management job. That final push takes me to wherever it take me. For overwater fly I kind of apply the same for a hard 50m fly. The first 2/3 my core and legs I try to keep the technique good but not kick too hard letting my upper body do the main pulling effort. Final 1/3, I get everything to work as hard as I can. Thoughts?
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Re: November Swim Thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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My thought is that you would get all the benefits you are going for without the risks by doing dolphin kick on your back (on the surface).

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: November Swim Thread [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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4 mi run (1.5 w/u + 1 mi @ 8:00 + 1.5 mi @ 7:53)
550 yd swim
2 mi bike

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: November Swim Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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200 pull, 200 kick
8x25 fly drills

50's fly on 1:10, target < :37.00
1st fail @ 12
2nd fail @ 14
3rd fail @ 16

300 EZ

20 x 25 on :40, target < :14.00

100 EZ

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: November Swim Thread [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Today's main "set" was 1x400m IM as 2x200IM (I did not feel like doing 100 continuous of each). Also 1x200m hard as 50/50/50/50 fly-free.

Also I timed 25 underwater dolphin (with a lot of rest before each) just to get an idea of how long I am holding my breath. With fins 19 seconds. Without fins 29 seconds. So as suspected, duration is not that long. Some thoughts on with and without fins. With fins, is faster, but oxygen consumption is more. Without fins, I am working less hard per kick, but need more kicks to get to the other side even though cadence is almost the same (maybe a bit faster without fins). I would have a tough time holding my breath for 30 seconds at the effort level of using fins (and I would go further). Without fins, can last longer due to less workload per stroke

These are the fins I am using:



I don't feel there is a risk at 25m for me, but maybe there is. I am not saying it is easy either. Before I do the 25m, I usually do 50m of easy kicking to shunt blood to the legs (vs arms) and then take a decent rest first.

Jason, what am I am doing screwed up on my back that is making it hard to kick on my back dolphin kicking at the surface? Is there a trick? do you keep your core and hips slightly under water (vs at surface) and just have your chest/head.arms at the surface?
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Re: November Swim Thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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You want your hips and legs to touch the surface on each kick. Get as close to the surface as you can without splashing.

It'll help you with streamlining and keeping the kick compact.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: November Swim Thread [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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By the way, what is the best training approach to get my 200m/400m IM time down. Do I focus on getting the repeats down on each leg as standalone stroke sets, or do I do sets mixing all strokes or do I do actual IM sets (like doing

for example

12 x 100m as 3x100m of fly, then 3x100 back, then 3x100 breast, then 3x100 free

or

12x100 as 25/25/25/25)

or 12x100m as 100 fly, 100 back, 100 breast, 100 free and repeat that 4 times?

or 6x200m IM

Or do you guys focus certain days on certain strokes and then everyone once in a while have an IM focused combined day?

Dev
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Re: November Swim Thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Yes.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: November Swim Thread [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
You want your hips and legs to touch the surface on each kick. Get as close to the surface as you can without splashing.

It'll help you with streamlining and keeping the kick compact.

That makes sense....also it also indicates to me that perhaps too much of my dolphin kick is in front of my body than behind. If I do what you are saying, pretty well the entire kick has to be behind my body
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Re: November Swim Thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Not really, because your hips will move up and down too. But it does keep you from overkicking.

But really, do that instead. It's better and safer.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Nov 16, 17 18:13
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Re: November Swim Thread [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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1200 yard open water swim in the Mediterranean. It was all I had time for before getting dressed for meetings today. Still awesome fun swimming in the clear sea through a big school of fish.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Nov 16, 17 18:20
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Re: November Swim Thread [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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3000 SCM - main set 30x50 on 1:01. Made #29, missed #30.
2x200 pull after that.
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Re: November Swim Thread [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
1200 yard open water swim in the Mediterranean. It was all I had time for before getting dressed for meetings today. Still awesome fun swimming in the clear sea through a big school of fish.

Where in the Med did you swim? Pics would be awesome!

Dev
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