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Re: November Swim Challenge [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Tom...
I feel we have reached the end of my "helpfulness" to you on this topic and I apologize if you feel I stepped on any coaches toes.
Never meant to.
I do appreciate the conversation and feedback and have looked forward to this discussion.

My rationale for it being "too much" is that i asked you *where you are connecting to your rhythm. You named 4 locations with the crux being HAND timing w FOOT timing. All I was/am suggesting is to try to simplify the location, to only ONE when you connect for rhythm. And more effectively NOT doing that at the ends of your skeleton (hands and feet) and start more with getting better (more consistent, rounded rhythm) from your hips, shoulders (boat), and breath individually, before going to your arms, legs, hands and feet or any combo therein.
I hope that makes better sense and answers both questions you asked.

Congrats on the improvement! I hope it continues and never thought you were complaining about progress but rather I found refreshment in your willingness to listen and try something from a stranger online. These forums are always tough and the conversations limited and obviously very impersonal. A coach, seeing you perform regularly is going to have a much better perspective and so there were def some **assumptions on my part. Ill own that 100%
That said (ha!)
Final assumption filled feedback and then I will happily try my best to just answer questions if you have any.
(I'm saying the following bc you have commented on tired arms, swimming more than you ever have, and also SPL. Additionally, as I have found over the years very few (men specifically) who do triathlon have a naturally beneficial relationship with the water due to more lean muscle mass and that mass being located below your center of buoyancy... so, generally, we are "sinkers")
So, with those generic assumptions said, be cautious about lowering your SPL. I believe, DPS (as swimmers call it) is one of the most, if not THE most damaging paradigms in our sport. It influences the coaches, the athletes, the drills, the equipment, the conversations etc etc etc.
Taking fewer strokes per length does not equal efficiency or increased effectiveness. More often than not it leads to unmanageable stress on the shoulder joint and eventually injury. Additionally, these fewer strokes are manipulated by hyperextension through your skeleton and over reaching and over kicking as well as extended underwater kicking off walls. All of these can produce more velocity but at a massive cost of energy output and thus are very short lived. Bc we are sinkers (assumption**) lengthening and becoming non-functional with our arms and shoulders creates more time between our "impulses" or connections to the water or the throw where we create/sustain velocity. When given more time in the water, bc we are sinkers, well, then we sink. Ill use me as an example: I can do 100s and go 1:10 pace per 100 taking 11 or 12 strokes in a 25 yard pool and take 3 breaths per length. My HR (as it was this am, was 145). I can also swim that same pace, same interval (as I was also doing this am) taking 16 strokes, breathing 5 times per length and my HR was 120. Im a typical sinker with a moderate kick behind me (moderate for a div 1 swimming program in college but miles ahead of other triathletes I swim with).
I spent years trying to lower my DPS only to find sweet salvation :) in the ease of sustained speed by limiting my "down time" between impulses bc of my natural tendency to sink. Having a better understanding of your relationship with the water can help to clear a path to reaching your elite potential. Just be careful with buying into fewer strokes per length meaning you're a more efficient swimmer.
Thanks again for reading and responding!
Good luck!
as always, happy to discuss.

daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: November Swim Challenge [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Had a nice 3000 yard ocean swim with the GF. She has the week off. I’m back on track now to reach my goal of 500 miles of swimming this year. I’ll probably get a little behind Wednesday, as we’re going up to Sacramento for Thanksgiving. I’m not sure how much swimming we’ll get in. But, I guess when I get back, just have to bump some swims into the 5k distance.

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: November Swim Challenge [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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I'm still enjoying my time out of the water, I'll be really motivated to get back in the new year. Dryland stuff is progressing well, did 20 minutes on the T-mill starting at a leisurely 5mph and ramping up to the last 2 minutes at 10 to 12 mph (.5 mph every 30 secs)

4 minutes of walking,then into 3x my bodyweight circuit.

3x
(40s jumping jacks
40s bodyweight squats
40s pushups
40s superman
40s spiderman
40s burpees)
20 s between each station, 1 min recovery between sets.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: November Swim Challenge [daved] [ In reply to ]
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No worries, Dave. No toes stepped on. I'm not that kind of snowflake---I'm the good kind. And I wasn't trying to shut the conversation down. I'm always willing to listen. And I'm often willing to try things, provided I understand the basis and reasoning behind them. :-)

I'm careful with trying to make technical changes to my stroke or the feelings that my on-deck coach has instilled in me. He's the one watching (and taking my money). So, I have to trust that he knows what's imperfect in my stroke and what's #1, and #2 to fix, today. That's why I don't post "evaluate my swim stroke videos". Given that its Bobby Patten, I feel safe in placing that trust in him. If I didn't why pay for it?

Some of your assumptions are probably me being sloppy with my language. My arms don't get tired, its my lats and pecs...specifically around my underarm. Sometimes its also my internal rotators, because I have very tight shoulders and I try too hard to make a clean early catch. I'm working at relaxing at letting the catch "just happen" more.

I do have a lean (for a 50y old), runner's build at 5' 11", 150 lbs, 11 %bf. I wouldn't describe myself as a sinker...and low hips/legs is never something that has been used to describe me---the opposite is generally a comment that's made. I don't know if that means I'm a sinker or not. I have a pretty light 2-4 beat kick---which is becoming more 2-beat and less 4-beat. I swim the same pace with a PB, or a band, or full-stroke. If that's helpful.

Things like your first suggestion of waiting a stroke cycle or so, to inhale and focus on setting the rhythm, and swimming with the speed, are easy. Paying attention to different portions of the stroke, and their rhythms, yep I agree with that too. I do that quite a lot--every second I'm in the water, really. I've spent a lifetime doing various technical, proprioceptive (and rhythmic) things (drumming, figure skating, mogul skiing, tae kwon do, etc). So, I learned long ago to have an observation loop running in my head at all times. But, you focus on a piece at a time, not everything at once. Remember you are asking a drummer (former) a question about rhythm. I started drumming when swimmers started swimming. Multi-way independence is fundamentally what drummers do.
So, picking "one thing" is a bit of a challenge, and a drastic oversimplification. However, my choice reflects the direction of my coach---who gets to see me swim, and select the one (or two) things he thinks are most crucial to work on. His last words to me were, "THAT could be your stroke. For the next two weeks, I just want you to concentrate of replicating THAT feeling. Don't worry about pace, or distance. Just focus on that FEELING every stroke."

But, if you ask me what my left arm is doing, or my hips are doing, or shoulders, or breathing rhythm...I can answer any of those, too. I rotate through all of those at some point every time I'm at the pool. Well...what I THINK I know what they are doing---since I can't really watch, I can't be sure.

With regards to SPL or DPS...I'm not a slave to SPL/DPS. I call it SPL because that's the real measurement I have from my watch. DPS implies knowledge I don't have----how much streamline each length. I *was* obsessed with it once upon a time...back when I was doing TI, years ago. But, its not something I look at or focus on IN THE POOL, anymore. I do look at the data after the fact. Mostly I'm looking for degradation through a hard set...or big changes in SPL when changing pace. Today I focus on stroke-rate and trying to ensure that something is always creating forward propulsion---and that I don't significantly shorten my stroke when I go from 1:45/100 to 1:18/100.
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Re: November Swim Challenge [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
I'm still enjoying my time out of the water, I'll be really motivated to get back in the new year. Dryland stuff is progressing well, did 20 minutes on the T-mill starting at a leisurely 5mph and ramping up to the last 2 minutes at 10 to 12 mph (.5 mph every 30 secs)

4 minutes of walking,then into 3x my bodyweight circuit.

3x
(40s jumping jacks
40s bodyweight squats
40s pushups
40s superman
40s spiderman

40s burpees)
20 s between each station, 1 min recovery between sets.


What? No "Robins", "Captain Americas", or "Aquamans"?
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Re: November Swim Challenge [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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5.4 mi run, 400 yd swim
17/19

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: November Swim Challenge [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Wasn't feeling it tonight. Just generally fatigued. Probably should have taken the day off yesterday.

WU: 325 straight / 25ez

MS: 20x50 (20s)

No cool down.

15 /19, 30kscy
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Re: November Swim Challenge [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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after a couple of weeks of missed or just short swims, finally got back to swimming at the back of my squad today finally.

50m long course

400 mixed warm up (free, back)
2 x 150 on 2:45
4 x 100 on 1:45
6 x 50 on :50
4 x 50 on :45
2000 straight descending effort by 500's
100 easy active recovery
6 x 50 on 1:30 breath control
4 x 100 descend on 1:45
4 x 50 all out on 1:00
100 easy active recovery
4 x 50 all out on 1:30
100 easy cool down

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org
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Re: November Swim Challenge [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Tom,

i didnt feel like you shut anything down here and I am always eager to help folks learn to swim.
With that said, I appreciate your advanced level of drumming ability, no doubt grown over years of practice.
And now as you practice a new thing, (swimming) I would encourage you to look at how you learned to drum years ago.
Now-- behind a drum set multi dimensional work at its finest. The fine motor skills and learned abilities Ill never possess.. tho the wife got a piano.. i think im meant to learn... ahem...
where was i..
oh learning. Yes. You did become stud multidimensional drummer by doing all the acts at once. You learned one. Then you learned another. You got both to the point you could combine them.
And thats where you are in swimming finding rhythm ... youre using your developed skill level on a land based activity that you have learned and grown over time and then falsely assume you can take that talent drumming immediately to a new athletic endeavor. While youre certainly more keen to pick it up quickly (I presume) .. you still have to learn the individual part. And that is the point I am trying to make by simplifying the location of your rhythm and really get dialed into it. Then add in more after you have learned them as well.
Does that make sense?
As far as Im concerend SPL and DPS are the same. They are but one measurement in terms of feedback swimming in a pool. And they are both TOO highly valued as the lower your stroke ct per length is (or the more distance you take per stroke) as measures that reflect improvement. And like I said.. it is damaging to our athletes and sport that we value that. Could you imagine if T&F held that belief to be true?? Usain could run 1 second faster if he could just get more distance on each stride and take 6 fewer strides over 100meters. And just become more of an absurd paradigm the longer the distances go... Soon we will be telling marathoners that they can be faster by doing lunges through NYC.... Anyways.. I digress.
As for your relationship with the water. There are tests to measure this, ive spoken of them before on this webpage. But it has to do with you NATURALLY IE without movement, only breath, to determine your relationship which can then guide you toward appropriate training protocols. I would bet youre more of a sinker than you think. But quietly FU for being 5'11" 150!! super jealous HAHAHA Im 5'10" 180....
(that was kind of a joke I am jealous but def not FU jealous)
----
Look good luck. Keep in mind i was not putting you down for what youre doing but rather trying to guide you towards more success by asking you to take a couple things out of the equation, that you can then decide to add back in, or not, based on performance.

And yes... you dont know what all these other parts of the body are doing bc you are not watching them. And its too much to take in. Hence my simplification for you. Swimming is not a DIRECTIVE sport. It is a feel sport bc we cannot see. So simplifying what we do helps us to be able to raise awareness of what we are doing.

again..Good Luck.
my email is on my website and if you want to send me a video or two of yourself.. please, Id be happy to take a look.
A clip of you getting into the water
a Clip of you swimming
A clip of your interactions w the wall
a clip of you floating face first, lungs full as if you were a dead man in the pool
And a clip of you exhaling and sinking to the bottom from that position would be most helpful.

Sorry I dont know your coach. But I will say, I absolutely could learn from him!

dave

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: November Swim Challenge [daved] [ In reply to ]
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300S, 200k, 100p
4x100 on 1:30
5x100 on 1:30
5x100 on 1:25
5x100 on 1:20
5x100 on 1:15 (missed interval after1st)
4x100 cool down 1:30, 1:40, 1:50

Toughest workout since I came out of a 40 year “retirement” 18 months ago.

Sets longer than 1500 are tough now.
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Re: November Swim Challenge [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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In a pool for a change, since I’m up near Sacramento.
3x(200s @3:10/4x50@45/40/35/30)
10x50s@:45 + 10x50 IM order @1:00
4x200kwf
4x200p
500 s/k/p cool

4300 yardages

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: November Swim Challenge [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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They have an 800m free heat at provincials as 800IM....so i signed up and every day this week, I have been doing this:

800IM set as 16x(25m hard +25m easy)....so it goes like this 25 fly hard-25easy four times, immediately into 25 back hard, 25 back easy four times, immediately into 25 breast hard-25breast easy four times and then into 25 free hard followed by 25 free easy 4 times....what a blast.

I missed a bunch fo days or shorter days due to work pressure so now I have 36 days of swimming in the year and I need exactly 3.8K per day every day of swimming to get to 1200 km per year. It's right in the realm of possiblity, but I need a bunch of 30 km weeks on deck now. I think I will need to do some double days in case I miss some due to work.

Dev
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Re: November Swim Challenge [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Birthday swim:

10 x 100m @ 1:35, warmup (1:25-1:20)
10 x 100m @ 1:30 (1:20-1:21)
10 x 100m @ 1:35, 25 back, 75 free
10 x 100m @ 1:30 (1:21-:24)
700 as mix of kick and swim
4 x 25 cool-down

4700 plus 100 to grow on
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Re: November Swim Challenge [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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140triguy wrote:
Birthday swim:

10 x 100m @ 1:35, warmup (1:25-1:20)
10 x 100m @ 1:30 (1:20-1:21)
10 x 100m @ 1:35, 25 back, 75 free
10 x 100m @ 1:30 (1:21-:24)
700 as mix of kick and swim
4 x 25 cool-down

4700 plus 100 to grow on

Hey that is awesome! I think you should be set to join me on the Dec 31st ST virtual 10,000m swim. I'm hoping to do it as 20x(400IM+100IM)

OK, am at 1071km down for the year with 129K to go. If I can crank out 29K in the next 6 days then I "only need" 100km in the final month of the year to hit 100 km per month.

My am on a streak of at least one 800IM per day too!
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Re: November Swim Challenge [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t really like IM sets all that much. I mostly do long free sets, though I am presently doing some pace work to get ready for a pool 1500scm race next week. I think my goal tops out at 1000km for the year, and I’m about 71k away. Most of my long swims were during the summer. I did a bunch of 8-10km long course sessions on weekends. That built the base for the rest of this year, so I’ll getvtjere no problem. My motivation is waning a bit, and I’m getting ready to add a bit of running to my weeks until about March. Then, I’ll get serious again for maybe a USMS summer National Meet or long distance OWS.
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Re: November Swim Challenge [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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Last swim was 11/21 (last Wednesday). I took Tuesday off thinking that a rest day might help. But, I still wasn't swimming well...after swimming 12 out of 14 days, and 24,000 yards in that span my body was done.That's my entire average 2018 MONTHLY volume in the span of two weeks, and a stretch of 9 days in a row. I probably overdid it, but now I've had 4 days off.

Anyway, on Wed I started out thinking I'd do 20x50. But, as mentioned I wasn't swimming well. I just kind of messed around alternating between 100s and 50s for about 1000 yards.

Back to the pool tonight after work. Again, I'm not expecting much after 4 days of drinking and eating.
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Re: November Swim Challenge [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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Good to see you back around the fishes. Haven't seen much of you since your move.
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Re: November Swim Challenge [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve been swimming, I just haven’t been posting. I’m still on track to be over 1000km this year, but I’ve been swimming a little less lately.
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Re: November Swim Challenge [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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a belated happy bday!

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: November Swim Challenge [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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5.1 mi run easy, 525 yd swim (500 swim 7:30 + 25 kick)

18/27; 12,325 yds

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: November Swim Challenge [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve very much enjoyed reading swimming posts, so I’d thought I’d share this video my wife took of me doing a 50 SCM in the 200 relay. This is my third-year swimming with the NAC masters in Nashville and my last swim with them as I have moved to MA. When I started with masters I was a BOP triathlete swimmer. I’ve really focused on developing as a well-rounded swimmer so I can fully participate in masters workouts – learning turns, starts, and the strokes. The main in-practice achievements for me this year are finally being able to swim fly, improving my breaststroke, and very occasionally breaking 30s (SCY) for a 50fr.

On fly, I only swim full stroke while I can keep my best form, once it starts to break down I typically switch to a mix of one-arm and stroke. Just being able to do a single length feels like a victory considering how long I’ve been working toward learning butterfly.

My focus on breaststroke has been to improve my timing as that is my primary limiter (no surprise). I tend to kick too early. For most of the year I was stuck at 48 SCY 50 – after 6 months of work with no progress I finally had a break through and now can hit 44 most of the time with a PB of 42 for the 50 and 1:30 for the 100.

At the meet I did my first SCM 100 IM in 1:24.64 with the splits at 40.33 and 44.31. I was supper excited to swim that fast as in practice I’ve never broken 1:30 SCY! I also swam SCM 25’s for the strokes: 17.07 Fly, 17.76 Bk, and 20.1 Br.

The last swim of the meet was the 200 relay. I was the slowest swimmer in the group and was a little concerned that I’d not do well that late in the day. Thankfully my swim was in line with the best I can do at 31.89. I wish I had a video of my swimming from three years ago to see how I’ve improved, but I don’t. I do, however, see many places I can improve! My dives are really poor, and you can tell I start too late. Relay dives still make a little uncomfortable with the incoming swimmer. It looks like my breathing takes me out of alignment and could be improved. I also don’t have anything going on for the underwater. As an adult learner in the 35 – 40 AG I’m not sure how realistic it is to develop a respectable underwater by master’s standards, but I can try! Lastly, I think I took one to many strokes going into the wall.

I am going to miss swimming with NAC!


Last edited by: MadisonGuy: Nov 28, 18 9:59
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Re: November Swim Challenge [MadisonGuy] [ In reply to ]
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thanks for sharing!

race dives - from a logic perspective, you travel SO much farther through the air that you'd have to dive really, really early to hit the oncoming swimmer. If I had time I'd do the physics and figure it out.

for me:
7.1 mi run 63:15
1525 yd swim

main set 10 x 100 on 1:30

19/28 and 13,850 yds

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: November Swim Challenge [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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25m Pool

w-up
400 bk - 4x (25 dbl arm - 25 catch-up - 50 swim)
8 x 25 fs catch-up on '35

m-set (3000m)
3 x (
4 x 50 Fast bf fins 1 arm on '50
100 catch-up fins
4 x 50 fast bk ('10)
100 catch-up fins
4 x 50 fast bs ('10)
100 catch-up fins
4 x 50 fast fs on '50
100 catch-up fins
)
1st set 4 x 50
2nd set 3 x 50
3rd set 2 x 50

cool-down
400 choice

4000m
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Re: November Swim Challenge [PowerPlay] [ In reply to ]
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A lovely 3 mile ocean swim this morning. Water was about 64 degrees and had some playful texture that beat me up a little bit. 5300 yards in 1:18.
Rain likely tonight which will probably cancel ocean swimming tomorrow and possibly Friday. Bummer!

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: November Swim Challenge [MadisonGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Very impressive progression. There are lots of good Masters workout groups in MA, but let me know if you need to find one near where you’re located. I was in Nashville for a week in May and “dropped in” to some NAC masters workouts. Seemed like a really good program.
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