Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . .

Sep 10, 07 11:21

Post #1 of 267 (10879 views)

Here is what he said about the race. "I started very strong. It was a 165 km race with four 1st cat climbs, and more than 500 participants. For the first three climbs I was in the front group, climbing effortless. But it was in the descend were I was dropped due to some back pain. It seems my back is not 100% recovered. Not at least to cope with a five hour race, and rough roads long descends. I finished in the 25th position."

Here is his interpretation of these results (at least as he emailed me):

"these are the two graphs for the race and the complete file with the data. I think they speak from themselves. Remember two years ago my FTP for one hour was barely above 280 Watts, and this was a 5 hour race, and I feel I am not yet at 100%.

If you look at the Mean Maximal Curve you will notice that I sustained 280 Watts for 2 hours 40 minutes (and this included 1st cat hill descends), and the power distribution charts shows the "big drop", according with Dr. Coggan, at 350 Watts. And this is a 5 hour race. So I can say with absolute certainty that my FTP TODAY is at least 350 Watts. And I am still getting better from my injury."

He also tells me he will soon retry for another PB on La Morcuera and will try to get his PT data for that ride for everyone to see.

Enjoy. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 11:27

Post #2 of 267 (10858 views)

In Reply To:

Based on the evidence presented, Joaqin's functional threshold power is clearly NOT 350 W. Indeed, based on the normalized power graph shown at the top, I'm not sure it's even 300 W.

Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Sep 10, 07 11:29

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 11:32

Post #3 of 267 (10823 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Based on the evidence presented, Joaqin's functional threshold power is only ~300 W.

Perhaps you could say why and how that relates to what you have written (and Joaquin quoted before) about how to interpret this data. Seems to me he is interpreting the graph as you wrote he should. What did he do wrong? What did you really mean when you wrote those words before?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Last edited by: Frank Day: Sep 10, 07 11:32

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 11:38

Post #4 of 267 (10786 views)

Please don't start this shit up again.

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 11:39

Post #5 of 267 (10782 views)

In Reply To:

Perhaps you could say why and how that relates to what you have written (and Joaquin quoted before) about how to interpret this data. Seems to me he is interpreting the graph as you wrote he should. What did he do wrong?

What he's doing wrong is relying too heavily on the distribution of his power during a single event...the drop off method can easily be skewed if you have insufficient data. That's clearly true in this case, because his highest normalized power for ~1 h is <300 W - this indicates (to me, anyway) that all that time spent in the 320-340 W bin (and below) must have been accumulated in rather short "chunks".

Anyway, if you or Joaqin wish to offer up the original file, I'd be happy to analyze it.

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 11:42

Post #6 of 267 (10758 views)

If that is indeed a normalized power graph, then for him to claim that he spent 2:40 time at 280W is just wrong, and you should have learned that by now. A hilly ride skews the NP data a huge amount, and can't be used to determine FT. My own example was a 3:20 ride with an NP of 273W, at a time when my FT (as evidenced by several 40km TT races) was only about 275W.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 11:46

Post #7 of 267 (10743 views)

In Reply To:

If that is indeed a normalized power graph, then for him to claim that he spent 2:40 time at 280W is just wrong, and you should have learned that by now. A hilly ride skews the NP data a huge amount, and can't be used to determine FT.

I disagree.

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 11:49

Post #8 of 267 (10718 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

If that is indeed a normalized power graph, then for him to claim that he spent 2:40 time at 280W is just wrong, and you should have learned that by now. A hilly ride skews the NP data a huge amount, and can't be used to determine FT.

I disagree.

With? When you looked at my example ride file oh-so-many years ago, you thought that my FT was around 300W. You were wrong.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 11:49

Post #9 of 267 (10719 views)

Yep, looks like another 280ish watt FTP to me, same as before.

Remember FTP is the max power you can sustain for an hour, Frank. Other methods are just predictions. If you can't ride N watts for an hour, N is not your FTP.

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 11:55

Post #10 of 267 (10682 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

If that is indeed a normalized power graph, then for him to claim that he spent 2:40 time at 280W is just wrong, and you should have learned that by now. A hilly ride skews the NP data a huge amount, and can't be used to determine FT.

I disagree.

With? When you looked at my example ride file oh-so-many years ago, you thought that my FT was around 300W. You were wrong.

There are indeed occasions during which/individuals for whom the normalized power algorithm produces a biased estimate of someone's equivalent steady-state power. However, I believe that it is incorrect to say that "A hilly ride skews the NP data a huge amount, and can't be used to determine FT."

BTW, my functional thresold power is 300 W (or at least it is when I'm training regularly), and not only can I generate a file that looks like Joaqin's, I can also sit on an ergometer and slug it out at 275 W for 3 h if necessary.

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 11:59

Post #11 of 267 (10658 views)

I think if you really want to see what his FTP is, sign him up for the Mt. Diablo Challenge.

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [leggett24] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 12:00

Post #12 of 267 (10650 views)

The first FD vs. AC battle of the blue/grey Slowtwitch era!!!

Portside Athletics Blog

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 12:15

Post #13 of 267 (10596 views)

I see an inefficient amount of data to say one way or the other. However, even if the MMP graph was reflective of months of data it still wouldn't indicate an FTP of 350w, imho.

Thanks, Chris

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [leggett24] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 12:17

Post #14 of 267 (10578 views)

"Please don't start this shit up again."

hello, his subject line clearly says --> "not wanting to stir up the flames or anything..." geez, did you skip the subject or something?

;-)

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 12:20

Post #15 of 267 (10558 views)

Damnit Frank,

You and h2ofun seem to suffer from the same disease. Stirring up the flames is exACTly what you're trying to do. So do it - just don't say that's not what you want to do. The thing that both of you guys do that pisses everyone off is trying to hide behind flase humility (as we saw with h2o's recent thread). The masses love people like Kanye West, Calvin Johnson, and Russell Crowe, all of whom self-promote. Self-promotion, in and of itself, is not annoying. False humility and PRETENDING not to self-promote is intesely annoying. Please edit your subject line to read, "Stoking the flames - a PT file for Joaqin's recent race."

Ugh.

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [ra7258] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 12:21

Post #16 of 267 (10551 views)

You beat me to it. Well played.

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 12:23

Post #17 of 267 (10538 views)

"BTW, my functional thresold power is 300 W (or at least it is when I'm training regularly), and not only can I generate a file that looks like Joaqin's, I can also sit on an ergometer and slug it out at 275 W for 3 h if necessary."

Now that workout sounds like my kind of fun! I think your next book should be a collection of sadistic workouts!

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Bulliams] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 12:24

Post #18 of 267 (10530 views)

In Reply To:

Damnit Frank,

You and h2ofun seem to suffer from the same disease. Stirring up the flames is exACTly what you're trying to do. So do it - just don't say that's not what you want to do. The thing that both of you guys do that pisses everyone off is trying to hide behind flase humility (as we saw with h2o's recent thread). The masses love people like Kanye West, Calvin Johnson, and Russell Crowe, all of whom self-promote. Self-promotion, in and of itself, is not annoying. False humility and PRETENDING not to self-promote is intesely annoying. Please edit your subject line to read, "Stoking the flames - a PT file for Joaqin's recent race."

Ugh.

Ever hear of sarcasm? It seems ironic that Frank's getting called out here, when his subject line is essentially playing the same game as AC's original thread ("Liar, liar ...").

Just a thought ...

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 12:29

Post #19 of 267 (10495 views)

Who the hell is Joaqin? Does he win lots or races or something?

----------------------------------------------------
Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 12:31

Post #20 of 267 (10474 views)

In Reply To:

Here is what he said about the race. "I started very strong. It was a 165 km race with four 1st cat climbs, and more than 500 participants. For the first three climbs I was in the front group, climbing effortless. But it was in the descend were I was dropped due to some back pain. It seems my back is not 100% recovered. Not at least to cope with a five hour race, and rough roads long descends. I finished in the 25th position."

Here is his interpretation of these results (at least as he emailed me):

"these are the two graphs for the race and the complete file with the data. I think they speak from themselves. Remember two years ago my FTP for one hour was barely above 280 Watts, and this was a 5 hour race, and I feel I am not yet at 100%.

If you look at the Mean Maximal Curve you will notice that I sustained 280 Watts for 2 hours 40 minutes (and this included 1st cat hill descends), and the power distribution charts shows the "big drop", according with Dr. Coggan, at 350 Watts. And this is a 5 hour race. So I can say with absolute certainty that my FTP TODAY is at least 350 Watts. And I am still getting better from my injury."

He also tells me he will soon retry for another PB on La Morcuera and will try to get his PT data for that ride for everyone to see.

Enjoy. :-)

Comments/questions:
1. The top graph is definitely NP (look at where the x-axis starts)
2. For such a race with several Cat 1 climbs --- and long descents -- why is the 0-20W bin of the power profile so sparsely populated? There should be a quite a lot of coasting/empty pedaling in there. Something doesn't add up.

Last edited by: rmur: Sep 10, 07 12:33

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Erik Clark] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 12:33

Post #21 of 267 (10462 views)

In Reply To:

Who the hell is Joaqin? Does he win lots or races or something?

He once was an ugly duckling, with feathers all shabby and brown. Then he got Powercranks.

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 12:45

Post #22 of 267 (10411 views)

For the rest of us commoners can someone offer this up as I'd like to see AC and others approach to this. From my eyes it looks like FTP is somewhere between 280-300 but why are people saying you can't use NP from lumpy courses ? I thought the whole point of the principle was that was why you could !

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [rmur] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 12:45

Post #23 of 267 (10410 views)

In Reply To:

2. For such a race with several Cat 1 climbs --- and long descents -- why is the 0-20W bin of the power profile so sparsely populated? There should be a quite a lot of coasting/empty pedaling in there. Something doesn't add up.

My guess is that he excluded the periods of zero-power from the chart (a simple checkbox in the chart configuration).

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [MuffinTop] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 12:47

Post #24 of 267 (10400 views)

In Reply To:

Yep, looks like another 280ish watt FTP to me, same as before.

Remember FTP is the max power you can sustain for an hour, Frank. Other methods are just predictions. If you can't ride N watts for an hour, N is not your FTP.

I was thinking the same thing, eyeballing gets you to 280W, a far cry from 350W.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

Re: Not wanting to stir up the flames or anything but here is a PowerTap file for a recent race by Joaqin . . . [Erik Clark] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 07 12:51

Post #25 of 267 (10381 views)

He had one of the best team kits EVER!

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.