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Non Tri. Q about B-School programs and if where you go matters
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The question is not quite that simply. I know that if I went to Wharton Kellog or Harvard (or any other top 20 B-School) they are obviously somewhat more desirable than other schools.

Do you think if you went to Harvard or Wharton or another top 20 school and did a Graduate Business program BUT not an MNA that this would still be looked upon favorably?

i.e. instead of doing, lets say, an MBA at Wharton that one was a Fellow for a year at the Brookings institute, or a fellow in public policy at Harvard, or a fellow in management at another top school where at the end you do not receive a graduate degree but have spent 12-18 months as a fellow would these be looked upon as good qualifications simply because of where you went?

Really need Ivy Leaguers of B-School grads to answer this.

Thanks for the help if you can offer any.

Andrew
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Re: Non Tri. Q about B-School programs and if where you go matters [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Looked upon well by whom? For what type of future work?

I certainly would never pay extra for an employee that had an MBA, but then it has little application to my line of work.

CNN's website recently had an article on this subject. It's probably recent enough that you can still find it.
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Re: Non Tri. Q about B-School programs and if where you go matters [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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I am not an Ivy League grad, but have been in a position to hire many business school graduates over the last four years. If you provide me with more information relative your specific context perhaps I can give you a more pointed answer.

My company is involved in a significant amount of M&A work which requires strong ties to the private and venture capital marketplace. I have yet to discern based on the business school. In fact, and I stress that I am positioned differently that a Fortune 500 corporation, I have been as intrigued by those that have completed fellowships as those that have completed MBAs or other graduate work.

To come full circle: are you looking toward a specific industry or career? That will shape the validity of your responses.

Feel free to send me a message here, offline, if you wish.
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Re: Non Tri. Q about B-School programs and if where you go matters [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew,

I am 25 and just resigned from my position at UBS in NYC (did equity research for three years after undergrad). My last day is Friday!!! I am interviewing now at alot of buy-side shops and hedge funds. I have also gone on alot of informational interviews as well. My plan right now is to go to B-school next year, unless I find a great position somewhere on the street that would just be foolish to turn down. I am applying to top 10 schools only (Stanford, Columbia, NYU (ranked 12th but there finance department is 3rd) Berkeley, and UCLA).

From everyone I have spoken with in my industry (Wall Street), people have said an MBA is huge, but unless you get in to a top 10 school, dont bother going. And they would rather see that you get the full MBA, as opposed to a fellow type position. The MBA is a standard...But like others have said, what industry are you in?

On another note-If anyone in the securities industry in NYC or San Diego is looking to hire someone with three years equity research experience, please contact me at steve_byers@hotmail.com or on cell-516 241 6121.
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Re: Non Tri. Q about B-School programs and if where you go matters [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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An MBA is a brand that you can attach to your name. A top-20 school like Harvard or Wharton or Stanford is also a brand that you can attach to your name. So is the Brookings Institute, for that matter. Just getting into the MBA program at one of those schools means you've passed one of the most competitive vetting processes in the world. One of the most important aspects of the credential is that you got into the program in the first place, and made it through to get the degree. From an employer's point of view, you're prescreened as damn smart with good potential. The credential gives you a very firm foundation for any job you apply for, but your experience will get you the job and your performance will get you the promotion.

That said, I would NOT look favorably on someone who was trying to pass themselves off as a Harvard Business Graduate if they didn't get into and go through the MBA program. Doesn't matter what the job is. It would seem to me that they are trying to associate themselves with the brand even though they didn't really earn it. That would make me concerned either about the person's ability (they couldn't get in) or their character (they're trying to fool me). If you're thinking of going into politics, getting the real credential is very important, and having an imperfect credential will come back to haunt you. If you want a public policy degree, go to the Kennedy School. If you want a fellowship of some kind, get a fellowship. But if you want a business degree, get an MBA.

I've been looking at the MBA programs for a while. If you want to be able to do something with the time besides the MBA, and assuming you have some significant work experience, take a look at the executive MBA programs. Harvard doesn't have one, but Columbia & Wharton & Chicago do (so do many other top schools). You get a true MBA, you get the same faculty, and you get to interact with a very valuable student body (more valuable than the full-time MBA students, I believe). PLUS, (this is a big secret that nobody tells you) the executive MBA programs are easier to get into. You could do an executive MBA *while* you were a fellow at the Brookings Institute. Be prepared to shoulder a great deal of debt, though, and don't try to do an Ironman in those years. :-)

Good luck!
Lee
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Re: Non Tri. Q about B-School programs and if where you go matters [SByers] [ In reply to ]
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Steve - I'm in roughly the same position as you are, but in the UK and working for Americans. Have been debating the move you're pulling but was wondering how the CFA is measured against an MBA on the street? I know over here that it's seen as superior but as I'm considering moving stateside, was wondering what the view is from over there?

Thanks for any views.







"Language most shows a man: Speak, that I may see thee. It springs out of the most retired and inmost parts of us, and is the image of the parents of it, the mind. No glass so mirrors a man's form or likeness so true as his speech." - Ben Jonson, Timber, or Discoveries made upon Men and Matter.
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Re: Non Tri. Q about B-School programs and if where you go matters [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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I'll agree with most of the posters, but give you a bit of personal perspective. I applied to many MBA programs when I decided to go to B school, and ended up going to a lower ranked program for a few reasons. If you want to work on Wall Street and be a Master of the Universe, you might as well look only at the top 10. As previous posters replied, they let your future employers know you have been screened as smart, driven, and (usually) capable. However, if you want quality of life (again, my experience), try something different. A good friend is a Harvard MBA, with a lot of other great experience (US military), and is now making great money in banking. The downside ... 80 to 100 hr weeks, health problems, little time for family, etc.

Bottom line is that the Top 10 programs are great, but depending on what you want to do, they might not be the best choice. My career has worked out just fine without the Top 10 stamp on my resume. What the MBA did allow me to do was change careers, make great contacts, get a job with an outstanding company, and give me options down the road. What will give me even more options down the road, however, are the results I am producing in my current job, which is what future employers will look to more than just the MBA.

Good luck with your decision, drn92
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Re: Non Tri. Q about B-School programs and if where you go matters [GBJ] [ In reply to ]
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GBJ-

Thats a question everyone is trying to answer. There is a running debate about the CFA versus the MBA and there is no clear cut answer. It depends on your undergrad education and work experience. If you have an educational finance background, and are being mentored really well, a CFA would be smart. If, like me, you need to strengthen your finance skills, and have hit a glass ceiling, the MBA is the way to go. Depends on where you are. Remeber too, that an MBA can be utilized in any industry, not just securities, whereas the CFA is really just for wall street firms or financial analyst positions within companies.
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Re: Non Tri. Q about B-School programs and if where you go matters [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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As someone with an MBA, and someone who has been recruited and done the recruiting, I absolutely believe that it matters where you go...to a point, experience also goes a long, long way. It is also a big function of the field you are looking. For example, if you want to get into finance, you should try to go to a top 10 bus. school such as those mentioned. Money mgmt co's simply do not recruit at lower ranked schools. That doesn't mean that you can't be successful going to one of those schools, because talent will usually win out, it just makes it a harder, longer process. At Wharton, you will have HR reps from every top financial firm in the country on campus recruiting YOU. At Podunk State, you will have to figure out how to get the interview in the first place.

The MBA is a notch on your resume, it doesn't guarantee ability, but it opens doors.
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Re: Non Tri. Q about B-School programs and if where you go matters [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew,

I've got a non-Ivy MBA, work for Intel Corporation, and recruit for both Notre Dame and Intel. Feel free to contact me to discuss your goals/constraints.

In most instances, BOTH the type of degree and institution which provided it matters. Quite simply, the employment market is efficient in many ways. Generally speaking, a Top-Rated MBA (not Masters in Finance, not Fellowship) is a key access point to 2 key areas:

1. Investment Banking (with Top Firms...Goldman, etc.)

2. Strategic Consulting (McKinsey, BCG, etc.)

It will be VERY difficult to penetrate these areas without the degree from a top-20 (probably top-10 in today's economy) school.

However, if you are looking to do Corporate Finance, Product Marketing, Brand Management or other (less stressful/lower hours) jobs; you'd probably be fine with a different Masters Degree or a lower-ranked MBA...That is you'll get the opportunity for the job, but they'll pay you less (this is HR policy at P&G for instance).

Feel free to contact me offline to discuss. I chose an MBA from a borderline school (Notre Dame) because it left me with no debt and I loved the program. However, it also meant that I had to go chase after Strategic Consulting jobs rather than have them come interview on campus...

Cheers,

Jonathan C. Puskas

P.S. You can train for and complete Ironman while in B-School (even with a wife and 2 dogs;-)

impuskas@yahoo.com

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Re: Non Tri. Q about B-School programs and if where you go matters [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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It depends some on the geographic area you are in but an MBA degree from somewhere is an absolute necessity in most cases to even get a sniff. Rather like the sudden necessity of undergrad degrees to be a file clerk post vietnam. It's become a convenient way to thin out the candidates. In the current job market it's not uncommon to require EXACT industry and job duty experience and a litany of other requirements too.

It's really a question of whether you would rather be a highly paid MBA at Enron, Arthur Anderson, WorldCom or other major corporation specializing in financial engineering, massaging earnings or developing exotic models to value your worthless derivatives portfolio (I still prefer the term fraud) or a not so well paid person who makes a positive difference in some smaller well run no name company. The former require a brand name MBA, the latter don't. Money vs. satisfaction. Pick your poison.
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Re: Non Tri. Q about B-School programs and if where you go matters [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Get the MBA. The CFA is a nice to have but the MBA is the "check the box" credential. The coursework will all be very similar whereever you go. The real difference is in the caliber of your peergroup from which you will draw and learn.

Your choice in brand of MBA should be decided by thoughtful consideration of many factors specific to you and your aspirations. One major consideration is to match your career goals with the recruiting traffic on campus. Otherwise you are facing an uphill battle for visibility - it's just easier to hire MBA's from the campuses where you recruit.

I thought i wanted wall street. Turns out, the closer i got to it, the further i wanted to be. Quality of life is incredibly important to me so wall street didn't make sense when it came time to pull the trigger. I opted for a career in i-banking but on main street vs. wall street. Reasonable hours, good cash flow, much better quality of life. I am now doing corpdev at one of the largest pharma companies in earth to gain valuable operating experience before moving into private equity or venture capital. I don't have a top 20 degree but ultimately didn't need one to reach my goals.

B-school and your ability to interview gets you your first job out of the program, you do the rest. Ultimately your career is what you make of it. without being able to perform, your degree means nothing.

Any final up/downgrades ready to hit the wire?

jg
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