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No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out
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Means Lange ain’t 3 peated.. (Poor Dreitz).

A part of me is happy that Lange will have to win on his own and not some team tactics BS.

Can’t wait for Kona!!
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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handy andy isn't out as far as I know, looks like stitches and road rash. I bet He will be there. but don't worry lange is going to get killed, no way he gets a good year with no wind again.
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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thatzone wrote:
Means Lange ain’t 3 peated.. (Poor Dreitz).

A part of me is happy that Lange will have to win on his own and not some team tactics BS.

Can’t wait for Kona!!

If Lange can't have his domestique, it's game over, top 10 finish should be his goal. Brownlee might not win, but the race dynamics will be very different with him and Frodo there.
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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I was totally thinking exactly this when I heard the news that Dreitz crashed.

Prior to that, I think the difference was over 12 min from Dreitz back to Lange at the 62km mark, yet Lange "somehow" just ends up riding right on his wheel for 180km on the Big Island.

I really have zero love for Lange and I hope he has to race without his domestique and we will see if he can put these accusations to rest or not.
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [Darren325] [ In reply to ]
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Darren325 wrote:
I was totally thinking exactly this when I heard the news that Dreitz crashed.

Prior to that, I think the difference was over 12 min from Dreitz back to Lange at the 62km mark, yet Lange "somehow" just ends up riding right on his wheel for 180km on the Big Island.

I really have zero love for Lange and I hope he has to race without his domestique and we will see if he can put these accusations to rest or not.

Wow, so Dreitz soft pedalled waiting for Lange to catch up?
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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 Brownlee will not make the podium
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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thatzone wrote:
Means Lange ain’t 3 peated.. (Poor Dreitz).

A part of me is happy that Lange will have to win on his own and not some team tactics BS.

Can’t wait for Kona!!

Not a fan of team tactics either but Lange road with Dreitz for 20 miles, go check the tracker... About a dozen guys were in the same pack. Everyone except Wurf and Starky. Everyone drafts at these races, it’s part of the strategy unfortunately. Look at the STers on here ridiculing pros who DON’T draft, saying they need to take some advice (aka McNamee needs to draft more to have a chance to win Kona). Seems to be a pretty big double standard against Lange, although I wish the officials would have a zero tolerance policy.
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [Darren325] [ In reply to ]
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Darren325 wrote:
I was totally thinking exactly this when I heard the news that Dreitz crashed.

Prior to that, I think the difference was over 12 min from Dreitz back to Lange at the 62km mark, yet Lange "somehow" just ends up riding right on his wheel for 180km on the Big Island.

I really have zero love for Lange and I hope he has to race without his domestique and we will see if he can put these accusations to rest or not.

No love for Lange from my side. He sucks in every tier 2 race where the depth of field is less meaning he has to do his own bike leg and at that point, there seem to be a countless set of excuses as to why he can't race perform (flats, mechanicals others). Its too bad Sebi and Frodo shredded each other at Frankfurt while Lange kept his powder dry and did a long training day to validate for Kona. I really hope the wind blows like 2004 the day Stadler outbiked guys like Peter Reid by 20 minutes (that day Reid had a >5 hrs bike split).
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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I said Lange wouldn’t three-peat the day after Kona last year and everyone got all over me. It’s simply a numbers game. Something was bound to happen during the season or race that will stop him from winning. This was another step in that direction. Now we will see what he is really made of.
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [Scottxs] [ In reply to ]
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Scottxs wrote:
Brownlee will not make the podium

I'll agree with you there - think a top 5 is on the cards at most. He'll be in contention come T2 but will fade on the run IMO, went well at Ireland for a long time but the last 10km looked a struggle.

Frodo for the win all day long for me.
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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thatzone wrote:
Means Lange ain’t 3 peated.. (Poor Dreitz).

A part of me is happy that Lange will have to win on his own and not some team tactics BS.

Can’t wait for Kona!!

I hope you are right, I lost a lot of respect for Lange after that Dreitz draft train. I actually liked Dreitz prior to that. I'm sad Dreitz crashed, but it sounds like he will still be in Kona. My question is will WTC do something about it this year if it transpires again the same. Is there a rule that they can enforce on the race course to break them up?
Other than a crazy wind day which Kona is really due for, that will break things up and help the Uber bikers a bit more.

I still think Frodo is a lock for top of the podium. Lionel appears to be training much smarter this year but I think he just lost too much time with his injury and an inopportune time. How well can Cody do in his first year, as well as Alistair. I think both are in line for a top 5.
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [p9ul] [ In reply to ]
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Can’t argue. Lange has lost his train, and Frodo has acquired one in Brownlee who’ll swim-bike with him, doing his turns then fade on the run.

Frodo would have watched all that unfold on Sunday with a contented smile.
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [CementBottle] [ In reply to ]
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It’s just part of racing, and all they can really do is increase draft zone. But they can’t dictate you have to race your own race....that’s not really done except in the run.

Those swimmers who “sit in” on others they essentially are pseudo teammates at that point.

I think it’s just a “dirty” part of racing that they can take advantage of. they do I believe have some “honest effort” rule but if your are the front of the draft train how in the hell can WTC bust you for that.

We long ago broke off from some “individual” race with just how good and even most athletes are and thus will be on the same real estate most of the race together. Kona also isn’t that tough of a course is it to “break up” packs? Unless horrible conditions, but most years there’s always going to be the packs together and basically “working together”.

Keep in mind he also finished what top 15. It’s not like he quit in T2 after his domesticque work. Maybe he improves by a spot or 2 if he raced exclusively for himself but he did fairly well for his own result. So you’ll be hard for me to want WTC to then look in and say x is or isn’t racing “hard enough”.

I don’t think this was a Charcot/LS completely tanking one result for other athlete.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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Fans of all sports are the same. If my guy didn’t win, then the other guy cheated.
The pro drafting rules make it difficult to not get some draft and there are officials to try to make it fair. I am not saying he did not draft, just that dwelling on it is just a thing for the fans.
Lange runs really well in the heat. The last two years that was good enough, probably not this year even if had gotten a team mates help.
Looking forward to a great race. Hope it lives up to our expectations.

Team Zoot So Cal
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
It’s just part of racing, and all they can really do is increase draft zone. But they can’t dictate you have to race your own race....that’s not really done except in the run.

Those swimmers who “sit in” on others they essentially are pseudo teammates at that point.

I think it’s just a “dirty” part of racing that they can take advantage of. they do I believe have some “honest effort” rule but if your are the front of the draft train how in the hell can WTC bust you for that.

We long ago broke off from some “individual” race with just how good and even most athletes are and thus will be on the same real estate most of the race together. Kona also isn’t that tough of a course is it to “break up” packs? Unless horrible conditions, but most years there’s always going to be the packs together and basically “working together”.

Keep in mind he also finished what top 15. It’s not like he quit in T2 after his domesticque work. Maybe he improves by a spot or 2 if he raced exclusively for himself but he did fairly well for his own result. So you’ll be hard for me to want WTC to then look in and say x is or isn’t racing “hard enough”.

I don’t think this was a Charcot/LS completely tanking one result for other athlete.

The difference is Lionel owned up to it, and offered to disqualify his result that year. He reached out to Jimmy R and offered to disqualify himself. Lange did no such thing and I think got a MUCH MUCH bigger benefit from the Dreitz train than Lionel got from what he did.
I agree it does not appear to be anything that can be enforced unless they increase the draft zone, which for the life of me I cannot understand why they don't do that.
A big wind day is the only thing to make this more of an individual effort in Kona, and I think we are due for one.

Agreed, with Ali in the race, it gives the race a completely different dynamic with him and Jan at the front, it will take the UBER bikers a LOT longer to bridge up to them. The way the race is shaping up, I can't see anyone that will challenge Jan.
Having said that, in the immortal words of NFL broadcaster Chris Berman, "that's ....why....they....play....the.....game".
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [CementBottle] [ In reply to ]
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CementBottle wrote:
Agreed, with Ali in the race, it gives the race a completely different dynamic with him and Jan at the front, it will take the UBER bikers a LOT longer to bridge up to them. The way the race is shaping up, I can't see anyone that will challenge Jan.
Having said that, in the immortal words of NFL broadcaster Chris Berman, "that's ....why....they....play....the.....game".


I'm not so sure of that.

Jan was in the race when Lionel/Sebi/Cam bridged up quickly. And they put the hurt on him when they got there (it's why he essentially dropped out of the race imo). Maybe he just wasn't as fit that year? Dunno

Alistair just got a lesson on pacing in Nice. And on top of that, he likely saw the benefits of riding conservatively in Cork. I mean he doesn't have to be in the lead off the bike to win the race, he's a really good runner. If I was him I'd do as little as possible to stay with or within striking distance of the main contenders.
Last edited by: Sean H: Sep 9, 19 9:30
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [CementBottle] [ In reply to ]
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Oh I’m in agreement that to me it’s a “bullshit” move. But you know who also was helped by the draft train? A bunch of ppl who “sat in” on it. So if he shares the load and they all work “together” are we cooler with it? So it’s a full chase squad “team” vs 1 guy pulling everyone else.

ETA: it’s also more eye roll when you don’t come clean about the “tactics”....like come on, just go with it and don’t play super coy about it. As I said I’m ok with it in that instance and I thought the LS instanced were 2 entirely different events even though I think “domestique” duties happened in both. This one I just don’t think he “ruined” his own race.

I just think it’s part of the tactics that you have to take into account. Take Dreitz out, do you think it changes the story? I don’t because I think they would have had others helping pull back time. And as I said Dreitz didn’t “mail in” the run. To do all that work and still get 13th is pretty damn good.

So I’m more along the lines with it being an eye roll but it’s part of the race dynamics that you have to account for.

Should Gomez have to apologize for sitting in the whole time in that group as well? Others?

So unless you truly “tank” your own race, I don’t think those type is dynamics can be “officiated out” of the race.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Sep 9, 19 9:45
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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I have never seen a bunch of crybabies as I do in this thread, and most of you have no idea what you are talking about..

First of all, Dreitz started the bike nearly a minute behind, so if he soft pedaled to wait, that would be a nice trick..

They maybe rode all of an hour or so together, along with 12+ other guys, different ones taking pace at different times. It was not prearranged, but once in the large group, no doubt lots of those guys were plotting to get the best out of it. Did I miss where the other 12 guys who rode this pace are also not doing Kona too? Is there any doubt that this group will form once again like it has just about every year since the race started? And do any of you suppose that someone is going to feel good and push the pace, and when they dont, someone else will take over?

And as for Dreitz, dude got 13 overall last year, so pretty fucking good if he was just some domestic. Seems to me he rode his ride, and had his best run. Just like 1/2 the guys in that group did, while others overcooked hanging in there. If he slowed down while riding, he was probably looking for some help, and if it doesnt come, well he was willing to sit on the front and set pace, his pace..

Almost forgot the secret German they were speaking with each other, they are friends people! Jeesh, have none of you ever talked with a buddy when you happen to be riding with them in a race? I know I have, and guess what, I talk to people that aren't my buddies, some banter, and some strategy in the moment..

A lot of you guys sound like the ones that bag on Gomez too, same stupid argument. You are mad I guess because everyone doesnt race off the front and win..Well guess what, that strategy almost never works, witness the 70.3WC this past weekend. I just dont understand how people cant understand that folks that compete at the highest level, have different strengths and weaknesses, and have strategies to maximize their races.

I'm with you all when rooting for the underdogs that go off the front, and lay it all out there. They make the race exciting, colorful, and make others rise up to beat them. But why bag on the guy that actually has the smartest race on the day and wins? That's what I dont get....Carry on, rant over..
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
I'm with you all when rooting for the underdogs that go off the front, and lay it all out there. They make the race exciting, colorful, and make others rise up to beat them. But why bag on the guy that actually has the smartest race on the day and wins? That's what I dont get....Carry on, rant over..

This.

I can surely identify with not particularly liking Lange's style, and also find myself rooting against him, but the dude races incredibly smart, and that's what matters.

The others have to take that into consideration and figure out a way to beat him. And I too love that risk taker racing out front.
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
I have never seen a bunch of crybabies as I do in this thread, and most of you have no idea what you are talking about..

First of all, Dreitz started the bike nearly a minute behind, so if he soft pedaled to wait, that would be a nice trick..

They maybe rode all of an hour or so together, along with 12+ other guys, different ones taking pace at different times. It was not prearranged, but once in the large group, no doubt lots of those guys were plotting to get the best out of it. Did I miss where the other 12 guys who rode this pace are also not doing Kona too? Is there any doubt that this group will form once again like it has just about every year since the race started? And do any of you suppose that someone is going to feel good and push the pace, and when they dont, someone else will take over?

And as for Dreitz, dude got 13 overall last year, so pretty fucking good if he was just some domestic. Seems to me he rode his ride, and had his best run. Just like 1/2 the guys in that group did, while others overcooked hanging in there. If he slowed down while riding, he was probably looking for some help, and if it doesnt come, well he was willing to sit on the front and set pace, his pace..

Almost forgot the secret German they were speaking with each other, they are friends people! Jeesh, have none of you ever talked with a buddy when you happen to be riding with them in a race? I know I have, and guess what, I talk to people that aren't my buddies, some banter, and some strategy in the moment..

A lot of you guys sound like the ones that bag on Gomez too, same stupid argument. You are mad I guess because everyone doesnt race off the front and win..Well guess what, that strategy almost never works, witness the 70.3WC this past weekend. I just dont understand how people cant understand that folks that compete at the highest level, have different strengths and weaknesses, and have strategies to maximize their races.

I'm with you all when rooting for the underdogs that go off the front, and lay it all out there. They make the race exciting, colorful, and make others rise up to beat them. But why bag on the guy that actually has the smartest race on the day and wins? That's what I dont get....Carry on, rant over..

A-fucking-men.

Where the hell is that damn "like" button.
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Finally some common sense. I was beginning to fear the majority here rejoices when they hear someone crashed in a downhill on their bike. To start a topic like this must mean some people really hate someone so much, to the extent that when another guy linked to him experiences a bad crash the first thought is that it is really good news for their dream scenario in some race. I guess this is what people type "smh" for.
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [tomdefietsbom] [ In reply to ]
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Finally some common sense. I was beginning to fear the majority here rejoices when they hear someone crashed in a downhill on their bike.//

I guess I have become the squeaky wheel for the silent majority, thanks for your support. Nice to know you are not alone...
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Why all the Lange hating? He's awesome at Kona and average at all other races. This is a reason why I think the WC needs to be rotated at different venues. Is Lange an all time great because of Kona results? Basically, yes because he's the two time WC. In any other races he gets owned. Until the format is variable for determining the WC, this is what we'll continue to get. No discredit to Lange, who just wins the race (Kona) that he needs to win.
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Well said . . . and not only that. virtually every age grouper also does the same thing. I do my very darndest to race clean as do many/most other folks here. But, even at the pointy end (unless you are the tip of the spear) you just sort of slot in in the appropriate pecking order at legal distance but it sure does help. That's how the race evolved last year at Kona. Was Lange smart, of course . . . why shouldn't he be.

Dreitz, by the way, is one of the very nicest pros you will ever meet meet. Really a great guy and I hope he recovers quickly.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: No ‘Team Tactics’ for Lange this year in Kona with Dreitz out [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Good on you for jumping in to set the record straight Monty!

poor form to jeer when a guy has an accident
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