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Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis
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Hi All - Happy New Year! After years of weight loss (270 -> 208) and building a good base ... I've registered for my first OLY this summer (August). Goal is my first HIM in September (or 2021).

I've been waffling on training plans, but to many of you I might be obsessing over meaningless minutiae. So a few stupid questions I am hoping to can address :-). My weekly workout currently consists of 15 miles running, 50 miles biking, 2 miles swimming. I'm pretty slow ... 2-hour half marathon, avg bike pace is 15mph over 25 miles w/ 1,800' elev gain (FTP is 210), 1:54 / 100yd swim. I'm 6' 208lbs.

1 ) Any issues with following a HIM plan over an OLY plan for my August OLY? I don't enjoy speed work, but enjoy longer repetitive training sessions.

2 ) Many of the free HIM plans (e.g., Matt Fitz, etc.) include at least one or two days with two workouts (e.g., Swimming -> Running, Biking -> Running). Any issues with doing these as bricks and doing running before the swim? My only time to workout is 4am-630am. I recognize I'll have to do some bike -> run bricks as I get closer to August to get the hang of how my legs will handle the transition.

3) I have ~30 weeks until my OLY. Should I start my 20-week HIM plan 20 weeks out of race day or would it be beneficial to start now and just repeat the last two weeks again leading up to race day?

Apologies for the stupid questions. Just looking forward to starting my new workout regime. Thanks for any input in advance!

- E
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [bbdude] [ In reply to ]
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1) You note that you only have a 2.5hr daily window to train, are you really going to be following a 70.3 plan or a shortened 70.3 plan that is closer to an OLY anyways?

2) Learn to run before biking if the schedule calls for 2 different workouts if your schedule limited (closer to the race you can do proper "bricks"), because running you'll be freshest for and likely can make the largest gains in your run ability.

3) Start the plan when it calls for it to be started. Spend the time between now and whenever the plan to just continue to get fit. "unstructured" training can be a hugely great benefit for athletes to start their training year. Just obviously be smart about it.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [bbdude] [ In reply to ]
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Simple.

Swim, bike, or run whenever you can fit it into your schedule.

Consistency is the key.
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [bbdude] [ In reply to ]
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Welcome to the insanity!

Happy to have you

No advice with training.

Best of luck
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [bbdude] [ In reply to ]
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Add a lot more biking. Low impact miles and 50 miles is “not a lot”.

2 miles swimming and 15 running is fine for an Olympic. You will want more running closer to the 70.3.

Do what you can when you can. Exercise is exercise and that’s all triathlon is.

Have fun and welcome to the sport.

Ps. Great job on 270 to 208.
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [bbdude] [ In reply to ]
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go ride your bike...

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [bbdude] [ In reply to ]
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I’m not too far ahead of you - started last year (December 2019)- did my first tri (70.3) in October. And I tend to over analyze things also. So FWIW, here’s what I’ve learned over the past year.

Since you’re doing an OLY as your first, you’ll probably want to do more speed work than a half plan, but you’ll do fine in an OLY following a half plan.

First, set your realistic goals for what you want. Since it was my first tri (I’m 60 yo), I started with a goal to just finish before the 8:30hr cut off (my open HM time is much slower than yours -2:20). As I trained I reduced my goal time to 7:30hr.

Second, sounds like your swimming is sufficient assuming the race is not with big swells and/or chop. I swim about the same speed as you. I quickly figured out that it would take a lot more time to shave five minutes from my swim than five minutes from either the bike or the run.

Third, most of the plans, like to 20-week one you reference, increase the time required to 12-13 hrs a week. My schedule is similar to yours (but twelve hours later) and 10 hrs a week is pretty much the max I have available. If your schedule remains the same, then your goal time needs to be appropriately limited. Nothing wrong with finishing and nothing wrong with finishing in the last part of the race or your age group. If you can’t work up to 13-15 hrs a week and don’t have years of training to build the foundation, then finishing is a great goal IMHO.

I wouldn’t swim more than twice a week (assuming you’re comfortable in the water) with one workout drills and technique focus (total 2k including warm up and cool down) and the second on speed (multiple workouts, one workout with 25m/50m sprints, one workout with 100m/400m max efforts), again 2k with appropriate WU and CD and of course rests between sets. The goal for the race swim is to swim smoothly and effortlessly. If you do that, you’ll exit the water in good physical shape and an acceptable time.

You need three biking WO a week for a half and one must be “long”, building up to 60 miles. I started with 25 miles on my “long” rides and got to 63 miles. These are easy, easy efforts with maybe some tempo pace during the ride, but not a lot. Your early weeks we be slow,, but will be faster as you train (just don’t increase your effort over the weeks). These long ones are for getting used to riding for three plus hours and for learning how to do your nutrition. I think you’ll see good WOs for the other ride days on the Fitzgerald 20 week plan, including speed and tempo.

And you need three runs a week (again for a half), including a long one (probably 10miles max). I think the Fitzgerald plan gets you to 12 or 13, which I don’t think is necessary if you’re doing your first one. It’s already going to be a PR. You’re just trying to finish.

But you can see if you have two swims, three bike and three run workouts, you have to double some days - especially because you want one day each week as a rest day. I often run easy 2-4 miles after one of my swims to my house (it’s two miles from my house). One run workout is the short 20 min brick run - with early weeks being easy effort, building to hard effort, fast but still short distance runs towards the end).

My typical weeks were
Sunday - rest day
Monday - swim (about an hour with the rests)
Tuesday - easy hour bike, followed by easy 40-60 minute run
Wednesday - hard speed bike (generally 45-60mins with WU/CD)
Thursday - swim followed by easy run home (kind of extra)
Friday, long bike followed by run for 20 mins or 2 miles whatever is shortest (and you can start with runs half that amount)
Saturday, long run (8-10 miles)

This got me to a finish in my first 70.3 right around my goal of 7:30hrs taking about 10 hrs a week. You’ll probably have to do you long rides on the weekends.

Also, be sure to follow the Fitzgerald three-week build, followed by recovery week.

MOST IMPORTANTLY remember you won’t be able to stick to you plan. This week I was out of town and could only run. Then we had a wind storm (30mph with gusts over 40), rained hard in the 30s the next day , snowed 5” yesterday and I was not motivated today. I’m sure I’ll get out and run an easy hour tomorrow. But my schedule is such that some weeks I can’t do what a plan calls for because of my schedule and some weeks because of weather or some other reason I have to skip a workout or more. Don’t sweat that. You’re trying to train for your first PR, not beat a previous one.

I’m looking forward to my next one (maybe Galveston) and my goal is 7hrs. You can make up a lot from your first to your second by learning lessons from your first one. I easily see 40 minutes I lost because of first-timer mistakes.

I’m sure real/experienced coaches will chime in and make suggestions that are probably better than mine.

Good luck and if you ever have questions send me a pm and I’ll answer them. My first-timer mistakes are fresh on my mind and you may have the same questions I had.

Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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First and foremost, thank you so much for all the thoughtful responses!

B_Doughtie wrote:
1) You note that you only have a 2.5hr daily window to train, are you really going to be following a 70.3 plan or a shortened 70.3 plan that is closer to an OLY anyways? .

I hadn't thought of this. So far as I can tell, my only challenge with the allotted time will be long ride days when miles exceed ~35 or so. Thanks for pointing this out.

B.McMaster wrote:
Add a lot more biking. Low impact miles and 50 miles is “not a lot”.

Agree ... probably need to at least double it on average. Can you elaborate on 'low impact'? Are you saying instead of doing say 25 miles on Zwift I should be doing a 60 minute interval ride maybe?

LEBoyd wrote:
You need three biking WO a week for a half and one must be “long”, building up to 60 miles. I started with 25 miles on my “long” rides and got to 63 miles. These are easy, easy efforts with maybe some tempo pace during the ride, but not a lot. Your early weeks we be slow,, but will be faster as you train (just don’t increase your effort over the weeks). These long ones are for getting used to riding for three plus hours and for learning how to do your nutrition. I think you’ll see good WOs for the other ride days on the Fitzgerald 20 week plan, including speed and tempo.

And you need three runs a week (again for a half), including a long one (probably 10miles max). I think the Fitzgerald plan gets you to 12 or 13, which I don’t think is necessary if you’re doing your first one. It’s already going to be a PR. You’re just trying to finish.

But you can see if you have two swims, three bike and three run workouts, you have to double some days - especially because you want one day each week as a rest day. I often run easy 2-4 miles after one of my swims to my house (it’s two miles from my house). One run workout is the short 20 min brick run - with early weeks being easy effort, building to hard effort, fast but still short distance runs towards the end).

My typical weeks were
Sunday - rest day
Monday - swim (about an hour with the rests)
Tuesday - easy hour bike, followed by easy 40-60 minute run
Wednesday - hard speed bike (generally 45-60mins with WU/CD)
Thursday - swim followed by easy run home (kind of extra)
Friday, long bike followed by run for 20 mins or 2 miles whatever is shortest (and you can start with runs half that amount)
Saturday, long run (8-10 miles)

This is incredibly helpful. Right now I'm doing 2 runs, 2 rides, 2 swims. I'm short a run and a ride. My typical long ride is ~40 miles, but haven't done one of these since moving back inside on the trainer.

I assume you define your 'harder speed bike' or 'easy long runs' by heart rate zone?
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [bbdude] [ In reply to ]
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Low impact. You can ride a lot and not hurt your joints.

As for the type of riding. Any is good.
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [bbdude] [ In reply to ]
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bbdude wrote:
I assume you define your 'harder speed bike' or 'easy long runs' by heart rate zone?

Heart rate is primarily what I use for running, but often I’ll use the Jack Daniel’s pace calculator for my pacing because HR is not always a match for effort. If I’m feeling good or great, I use the JD pacing, if not feeling good I use HR, for the easy/long runs. For the intervals, I always use the pacing. Today, I feel good and will probably use pacing for my 80 min run. My HR will probably be 3-5 beats higher than zone 2.

For biking I was using HR and perceived effort until a few months ago when I picked up some used power pedals. Once I learned what a perceived effort of 6 was compared to 8 or 10, I could use PE for intervals.

The main two problems with strictly HR is the lag to get the HR in the right zone from a lower/higher zone and HR drift/daily changes from weather. In the first 15sec or 30sec interval, my HR wouldn’t get near where the interval training suggested. By the third it would, but in the fifth or sixth it wouldn’t drop fast enough in 15secs or 30secs. This is either running or biking (and swimming for that matter).

The third issue with strictly HR training is that people’s HRs differ quite a bit. For me, even though I’m 60yo, my max HR is 177 and my resting is 48. My z2 running by HR should be around 135-136 based on my max HR and 125 based on the Maff method. But in my 5k TT last month I ran a 28:50 (9:17 pace) at 160HR and my half marathons are run around 156-157HR. JD pacing says my easy runs should be 12:05 at the slowest. At 135-136 it would be closer to 12:45. I do choose to run at the slower pace about half the time and JD pace half the time during the “easy” runs.

My wife on the other hand has a max of 181 (extremely high for a 61yo) and a resting of 65, but her running HR spikes high to 165 if she tries to run “easy” at the JD pace. So, she never trains easy at the JD pace. It’s just too fast.

There’s no doubt in my mind that the z2 training 80% of the time is the best for continuing to build endurance while minimizing the risk of injury. The difficulty is in trying to figure out what is the right HR for each individual’s z2. I believe a lot of the issue comes down to leg/body strength versus heart/cardio strength. For me, it’s my legs that give out. For my wife it’s her heart. I’ve been working on strength and she’s been working on the cardio system. She doesn’t do endurance events, just 5ks.

Hope this helps.

Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [bbdude] [ In reply to ]
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You're good to go with your base. Now you just have to pick a good plan to keep things on track toward hitting your potential.

I've done and would def recommend for HIM the plans from "Fast-Track Triathlete" by Matt dixon, or the HIM plans from 80/20 Triathlon. Both are very reasonable, written by super knowledgeable and proven coaches, and fittable into realistic time/life schedules. These aren't free (books) but it's a paltry <$20 for each book and will keep you on track as you push harder.
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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You might also consider TrainerRoad. Just try their free trial and use plan builder to create a weekly plan that includes all your events and current fitness. If you like it run with it. Otherwise those cheaper plans could work fine too. Since you’ve got a power meter you can take full advantage of that platform at least biking.
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
go ride your bike...

This!

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
go ride your bike...

This!

If only I could follow my own advice...

E

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe we should get off slowtwitch and actually go ride.

*looks outside*

nah.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Maybe we should get off slowtwitch and actually go ride.

*looks outside*

nah.

I’m very kinesthetic and also the thing when you look outside and see rain so you feel rainy on the inside. I might need to move to San Diego soon ;)

E

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
I've done and would def recommend for HIM the plans from "Fast-Track Triathlete" by Matt dixon, or the HIM plans from 80/20 Triathlon. Both are very reasonable, written by super knowledgeable and proven coaches, and fittable into realistic time/life schedules. These aren't free (books) but it's a paltry <$20 for each book and will keep you on track as you push harder.

Thank you for the recommendation. I bought Matt Dixon's book, but started Matt Fitz 'Super Simple' HIM in the meantime. Maybe a stupid question, but Fitz HIM plan has days that call for swimming and running. Since I only have the mornings I club these into bricks. Logistically, it's just simpler to run and then swim. From searching the forums, it doesn't seem like many do this ... most go from swim to run, which is a little hard in the winter especially at the gym. Any thoughts / recommendations?

Finigan wrote:
You might also consider TrainerRoad. Just try their free trial and use plan builder to create a weekly plan that includes all your events and current fitness. If you like it run with it. Otherwise those cheaper plans could work fine too. Since you’ve got a power meter you can take full advantage of that platform at least biking.

I've considered this, but want to give a manual plan first to cut costs (already paying for Zwift, bought a trainer, gym membership). Maybe I'm cheap :-)

ericMPro wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Maybe we should get off slowtwitch and actually go ride.

*looks outside*

nah.


I’m very kinesthetic and also the thing when you look outside and see rain so you feel rainy on the inside. I might need to move to San Diego soon ;)

E

I'm the same way. Although cycling, whether indoors or outdoors, is my least favorite of the three disciplines. Probably because I stink at it.

I'm from outside Philly, but the week I spent running around San Diego Bay was excellent. Made running at 4am a lot easier!
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [bbdude] [ In reply to ]
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It's fine to do run-swim backwards. Unless you're really pushing the limits of your performance, it's not worth worrying about.

FWIW, I hated the TR triathlon plans (Oly, specifically). Doesn't seem like I'm alone either - at least on this forum, way more people found it impossibly hard on intensity and led to quick burnout, as it did for me. Folks seem to have had better results on the mellower IM TR plans, but I suspect they're doing only 1, possibly only 2 workouts/wk on TR as they're almost all doing their long rides outside. I also can't stand the fact that they've not updated their tri plans for what - like 10 years?!? I'd get it if everyone loved their plans, but take a look on the TR threads here regarding Oly-sprint plans, and it's clear there is a lot of (easy) changes that could greatly improve them.

Avoiding burnout, both physically mentally is key. I've done plans by Fitzgerald and Dixon, both of which didn't burn me out and got me to PR results. TR got me to a barely PR bike split, but had me beat down so badly that I much underperformed on the run, and then didn't want to get on my bike trainer for months afterwards, which is terrible!

You probably know this too but entering workouts in Zwift is super easy and works great doing them. I usuall do the interval portions in erg mode if they are hard (z3-z5) but ride all the z1/2 stuff in non-erg mode on the courses, gets the best of both worlds.
Last edited by: lightheir: Jan 5, 21 8:13
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [bbdude] [ In reply to ]
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Don't think about it so much.

Swim, bike, or run whenever you can fit it into your schedule.
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
Don't think about it so much.

Swim, bike, or run whenever you can fit it into your schedule.

I was committed to doing what I thought made sense, but then saw a guy get out of the pool ahead of me in his trisuit to run and second guessed myself :-)
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
Don't think about it so much.

Swim, bike, or run whenever you can fit it into your schedule.

This is the way.

Maximize volume, at a low intensity. Incorporate some intensity as you get fitter and as you get closer to race day. Consistency is king. Try adding as much volume as you can now without getting injured. Add volume slowly (~10% more per week, with backoff weeks planned into the schedule every 2-4 weeks).

Swim a lot and mostly fast.
Bike a lot, mostly easy and sometimes hard.
Run volume without getting hurt. Mostly easy.
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [TriangleIL] [ In reply to ]
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TriangleIL wrote:
Maximize volume, at a low intensity. Incorporate some intensity as you get fitter and as you get closer to race day. Consistency is king. Try adding as much volume as you can now without getting injured. Add volume slowly (~10% more per week, with backoff weeks planned into the schedule every 2-4 weeks).

Swim a lot and mostly fast.
Bike a lot, mostly easy and sometimes hard.
Run volume without getting hurt. Mostly easy.

Thanks for the input. Did my first structure swim this AM (I've historically swim 1900yd @ 1:50/100yd pace) of four sets of 8x25yd @ 1:30/yd pace. Still slow ... getting there ... I promise set 1 was fast :-)
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Re: Newbie (OLY/HIM) - Training Plan Analysis Paralysis [bbdude] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe a stupid question, but Fitz HIM plan has days that call for swimming and running. Since I only have the mornings I club these into bricks. Logistically, it's just simpler to run and then swim. From searching the forums, it doesn't seem like many do this ... most go from swim to run, which is a little hard in the winter especially at the gym. Any thoughts / recommendations?


Not exactly the same situation but pretty similar when I do my long run in the morning and then swim 3 or 4 hours later. I usually have very tired legs so I will do the whole workout with a pullboy. My biggest worry would be cramps, so I will make sure to have electrolytes during the run, and the swim, drink often in between the 2 workouts and a salt tablet before the start of the swim.

If you are swimming in a pool, worst comes to works you just hold on to the rope and stretch the muscle out. So this is my personal experience, you have to find yours :D

Tridad
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