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New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition
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Has anyone seen these (new?) tires yet? Sounds like they are just coming out for the Tour de France being only a few weeks away. From the characteristics with a thinner tread, it sounds basically like a TT with 4000 S2 profile? But only 25mm version. Price is high though, 59€ per tires when you can easily find 69€ for a set of 2x4000SII including butyl tubes.

First noticed here in Europe:
https://www.bike24.com/p2279629.html


Description of Continental Grand Prix 4000 RS Folding Tire - 25-622 - Tour de France Edition
In a limited special edition for the Tour de France. The powerful tyre in the field, faster, with a thinner tread and lower weight than the standard GP 4000 S II model.
The focus of the GP4000RS is: speed! Due to less rubber on the tread the tire is faster than the standard one and in total 10g lighter!

The GP4000 is the reference tire in the road bike market and has gone through numerous stages of evolution. The proven aspects of the 4000 remain unchanged. Vectran breaker for unsurpassed puncture protection, advanced BlackChili compound for low rolling resistance and sensational grip, and handmade in Germany of course.
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Ben6] [ In reply to ]
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I'd be surprised anyone in the Tour would use them since most use tubulars and not clinchers.
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Benv] [ In reply to ]
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Conti brings out this "new" tire for normal customers to celebrate the 2018 Tour de France. As good reason as any to bring out a special Limited Edition I guess =) I also doubt any pros will be riding them, but I guess sponsored pro teams anyways get different tires than us mere mortals, clincher or tubular.
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Ben6] [ In reply to ]
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I would agree that it is likely to be a TT with the 4000 tread pattern. Heck it could be a Force as well' assuming there is a real difference between the current Force and TT.

I am waiting for the 4000 tubeless before I get excited.
Last edited by: grumpier.mike: May 14, 18 7:07
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Ben6] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting

WTB: TriRig Omega SV (not x). PM me if you have one :)
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Ben6] [ In reply to ]
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I would be all over this if they had a 23mm version. 25s just bulb out too much on the jet+ rims.

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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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same here...
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Ben6] [ In reply to ]
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Ben6 wrote:
Has anyone seen these (new?) tires yet?

They made them a few years back. It's a GP4000 with thinner tread, so very similar to a GPTT or Force or Attack.

BTW, I bought a Force/Attack combo recently and was quite impressed with the low weight of the 23mm Attack, ~170g vs 220g for the Force. And it isn't a small tire either, it measures a bit wider than the 23 Michelin Power Comp. Also it now has tread grooves positioned the right way for aero performance. I haven't tested it for Crr but it's probably as good as the GPTT and maybe better.
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Ben6] [ In reply to ]
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Ben6 wrote:
Has anyone seen these (new?) tires yet? Sounds like they are just coming out for the Tour de France being only a few weeks away. From the characteristics with a thinner tread, it sounds basically like a TT with 4000 S2 profile? But only 25mm version. Price is high though, 59€ per tires when you can easily find 69€ for a set of 2x4000SII including butyl tubes.

First noticed here in Europe:
https://www.bike24.com/p2279629.html


Description of Continental Grand Prix 4000 RS Folding Tire - 25-622 - Tour de France Edition
In a limited special edition for the Tour de France. The powerful tyre in the field, faster, with a thinner tread and lower weight than the standard GP 4000 S II model.
The focus of the GP4000RS is: speed! Due to less rubber on the tread the tire is faster than the standard one and in total 10g lighter!

The GP4000 is the reference tire in the road bike market and has gone through numerous stages of evolution. The proven aspects of the 4000 remain unchanged. Vectran breaker for unsurpassed puncture protection, advanced BlackChili compound for low rolling resistance and sensational grip, and handmade in Germany of course.

This may be the tire Sebi has been using for a few years now that was a prototype although he wasn't using a 25... Many moons (like maybe 2010 or earlier) ago Conti had 4000 RS tire that tested very fast.


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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Ben6] [ In reply to ]
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I would like to see a 24mm GPS 4000 SII

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Ben6 wrote:
Has anyone seen these (new?) tires yet?

They made them a few years back. It's a GP4000 with thinner tread, so very similar to a GPTT or Force or Attack.

BTW, I bought a Force/Attack combo recently and was quite impressed with the low weight of the 23mm Attack, ~170g vs 220g for the Force. And it isn't a small tire either, it measures a bit wider than the 23 Michelin Power Comp. Also it now has tread grooves positioned the right way for aero performance. I haven't tested it for Crr but it's probably as good as the GPTT and maybe better.

From a crr perspective the 23mm Attack should be identical to the GP TT: similar tread thickness, compound, casing, and breaker.

WTB: TriRig Omega SV (not x). PM me if you have one :)
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Ben6] [ In reply to ]
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GP TT 25mm is listed as 190g whereas this GP 4K RS 25mm is listed as 215g.
normal Gp4K 25 is 225g, similar to the Gp Force 25mm
so they're all a bit different with the GpTT being the lightest and hence presumably the least rubber and fastest rolling but this does close the gaps and could come out best overall due to aero
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
rruff wrote:
Ben6 wrote:
Has anyone seen these (new?) tires yet?


From a crr perspective the 23mm Attack should be identical to the GP TT: similar tread thickness, compound, casing, and breaker.

Is there any testing on the newest Attack that you're aware of? I kind of want to use that tire for my front wheel because in theory you'd think it would be more aero than the TT and better Crr than the 4000, but it seems to test so poorly in previous versions.

Ride for show, run for dough.
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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The prior version tested very well in the tunnel. I'm not aware of any testing of the new version but I intend to take it to the tunnel this year along with one other tire. BRR should have a new CRR test sometime soon (hopefully) on the 23mm Attack which should give you some confidence.

WTB: TriRig Omega SV (not x). PM me if you have one :)
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
The prior version tested very well in the tunnel. I'm not aware of any testing of the new version but I intend to take it to the tunnel this year along with one other tire. BRR should have a new CRR test sometime soon (hopefully) on the 23mm Attack which should give you some confidence.

Ok, I ordered one. Guess I’ll look to see whether it looks more like a TT or a 4000 on my wheel. If the latter I’ll run it, otherwise probably just stick with TT.

Ride for show, run for dough.
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
The prior version tested very well in the tunnel. I'm not aware of any testing of the new version but I intend to take it to the tunnel this year along with one other tire. BRR should have a new CRR test sometime soon (hopefully) on the 23mm Attack which should give you some confidence.

i dispute this. i know it's heresy to contest the notion that the 4000 doesn't cut through the wind like an SR71, but i don't see it.

paul lew is fond of pointing out that it's systems that matter, and that a tire has to have a particular, precise relationship to the rim for it to be aerodynamic (and, according to paul, a slower wheel/tire might be the faster wheel on a different frame).

swiss side's ballard is a fan of the 4000 but i believe one test swiss side touted from a few years ago found that the 4000 wasn't even the fastest continental tire on its wheel (aerodynamically).

yes, FLO likes it, but FLO didn't test it against many tires and it didn't test but marginally above the bontrager r4.

conti itself said they didn't consider aerodynamics at all when making that tire, as i remember.

i have rims that have an inside bead width of 17mm to 24mm. based on lew's comments, no way can the 4000 be just "the fastest tire" across these wheels.

accordingly, and while that tire is a great tire, good rolling resistance, good price, good puncture resistance, it doesn't raise the dead. so, no, absent a lot more than what i've seen i don't stipulate that the 4000 is a "more aero tire" regardless of what the prevailing wisdom is. it is on certain wheels, of given widths, in certain tests. otherwise i think its reputation is half earned and half urban myth.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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And Slowtwitch just had an epic meltdown! What! Continental may not be the best anymore? WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO NOW????

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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure anyone is saying the conti is the fastest in all scenarios. I'd think of it like the Giro Aerohead, it's been tested to be fast for many. Is it the best for everyone? Probably not, but not everyone has the access and $ to test all of their personal variables, so, we're going to go with something that is often fast, and at a minimum, won't hurt us too much.

Until we get more info on the tires, lincluding Thomas Gerlach's tire test and others, that's all we have to base our decisions on.
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
The prior version tested very well in the tunnel. I'm not aware of any testing of the new version but I intend to take it to the tunnel this year along with one other tire. BRR should have a new CRR test sometime soon (hopefully) on the 23mm Attack which should give you some confidence.


i dispute this. i know it's heresy to contest the notion that the 4000 doesn't cut through the wind like an SR71, but i don't see it.

paul lew is fond of pointing out that it's systems that matter, and that a tire has to have a particular, precise relationship to the rim for it to be aerodynamic (and, according to paul, a slower wheel/tire might be the faster wheel on a different frame).

swiss side's ballard is a fan of the 4000 but i believe one test swiss side touted from a few years ago found that the 4000 wasn't even the fastest continental tire on its wheel (aerodynamically).

yes, FLO likes it, but FLO didn't test it against many tires and it didn't test but marginally above the bontrager r4.

conti itself said they didn't consider aerodynamics at all when making that tire, as i remember.

i have rims that have an inside bead width of 17mm to 24mm. based on lew's comments, no way can the 4000 be just "the fastest tire" across these wheels.

accordingly, and while that tire is a great tire, good rolling resistance, good price, good puncture resistance, it doesn't raise the dead. so, no, absent a lot more than what i've seen i don't stipulate that the 4000 is a "more aero tire" regardless of what the prevailing wisdom is. it is on certain wheels, of given widths, in certain tests. otherwise i think its reputation is half earned and half urban myth.


I'd say that the reputation for the 4000 was mostly earned by how well it performed (aerodynamically) on quite a wide range of rims, as evidenced by independent data points (Zipp, Flo, Hed, etc.) at the time. Additionally, once they introduced the "Black Chili" compound in the "S" versions (S for "Scwharz") and gave it one of the best Crr values at the time (see http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/...ire-crr-matters.html ), along with it's relatively robust nature, it really DID become the Goldilocks tire of the time (best combination of aero, Crr, and durability). Sure, the aerodynamic properties were more a case of "accidental excellence" (its parabolic profile and side tread), but why look a gift horse in the mouth? Don't forget, at the time I first roller tested the 4000S (April 2013) it was the lowest Crr tire I had tested to that point ;-)

Since then, and as a result of the more recent appreciation (and independent testing) of Crr on bike performance, other tires have leapfrogged the 4000S on the Crr front...which is great, because as I've long said, really low Crr can make up for a lot of aero sins. That's why I personally would run Specialized Turbo Cottons or Vittoria Corsa Speeds in a TT over 4000S.



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: May 16, 18 16:24
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I do recall that the aerodynamic properties of the GP4000S II were an accident but it was an accident that prompted many wheel manufacturers to design around that tire and at least one tire manufacturer (Schwalbe) to investigate the effect of tread patterns on aerodynamics (Schwalbe Ironman). WRT Swisside, the fastest tire was an Attack put on backwards. However, the margin of drag reduction versus an Attack run forwards or a GP4000S was rather small.

BTW, Flo tested against more tires than anyone else I'm aware of!!!! https://flocycling.com/aero_tire_study.php

I count twenty tires.

WTB: TriRig Omega SV (not x). PM me if you have one :)
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
I do recall that the aerodynamic properties of the GP4000S II were an accident but it was an accident that prompted many wheel manufacturers to design around that tire and at least one tire manufacturer (Schwalbe) to investigate the effect of tread patterns on aerodynamics (Schwalbe Ironman). WRT Swisside, the fastest tire was an Attack put on backwards. However, the margin of drag reduction versus an Attack run forwards or a GP4000S was rather small.

BTW, Flo tested against more tires than anyone else I'm aware of!!!! https://flocycling.com/aero_tire_study.php

I count twenty tires.

Heck, the aero performance was so well known that Felt almost directly copied the parabolic shape and side tread pattern for their house brand TTR tires...


Unfortunately, they didn't quite match the 4000S in Crr though (I measured the TTR1 to be ~8W per tire slower @40kph than a GP4000S...doh!)



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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BTW, this is the interactive chart you want to link to on the Flo study, because it includes Crr along with aero: https://flocycling.com/aero_tire_power.php

Looking at that, on the Flo wheels, the 25mm GP4000S and old Force model are the clear overall winners. The 25C Zipp Tangente speed does pretty well out to 10 degrees as well.

None of those tires are the lowest drag models in the aero drag only measurements. They're fast performers because they have decent aero combined with excellent Crr.



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
I do recall that the aerodynamic properties of the GP4000S II were an accident but it was an accident that prompted many wheel manufacturers to design around that tire and at least one tire manufacturer (Schwalbe) to investigate the effect of tread patterns on aerodynamics (Schwalbe Ironman). WRT Swisside, the fastest tire was an Attack put on backwards. However, the margin of drag reduction versus an Attack run forwards or a GP4000S was rather small.

BTW, Flo tested against more tires than anyone else I'm aware of!!!! https://flocycling.com/aero_tire_study.php

I count twenty tires.

thx. i didn't see that. i saw another one from FLO, but not that. you realize that, while very marginal, the schwalbe outperformed the 4000 on that, yes? until you got to 12.5°. and you've also seen all the data on how, past 12.5°, you're pretty much no longer in a race conditions you'll see more than 2 or 3 percent of the time. so, if on THAT graph you're looking for the fastest tire, the 4000 is the fastest tire by far in conditions that you'll almost never see.

which, again, isn't to say the 4000 is anything other than a great tire. and i'm sure by the end of this thread i'll have said (according to some people, who will no doubt fail to read the thread) that the tire is shitsville.

but look at the post to which i originally responded. what i'm saying is, no, i'm unwilling just to stipulate to the 4000's ubiquitous aeroness.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
I do recall that the aerodynamic properties of the GP4000S II were an accident but it was an accident that prompted many wheel manufacturers to design around that tire and at least one tire manufacturer (Schwalbe) to investigate the effect of tread patterns on aerodynamics (Schwalbe Ironman). WRT Swisside, the fastest tire was an Attack put on backwards. However, the margin of drag reduction versus an Attack run forwards or a GP4000S was rather small.

BTW, Flo tested against more tires than anyone else I'm aware of!!!! https://flocycling.com/aero_tire_study.php

I count twenty tires.


thx. i didn't see that. i saw another one from FLO, but not that. you realize that, while very marginal, the schwalbe outperformed the 4000 on that, yes? until you got to 12.5°. and you've also seen all the data on how, past 12.5°, you're pretty much no longer in a race conditions you'll see more than 2 or 3 percent of the time. so, if on THAT graph you're looking for the fastest tire, the 4000 is the fastest tire by far in conditions that you'll almost never see.

which, again, isn't to say the 4000 is anything other than a great tire. and i'm sure by the end of this thread i'll have said (according to some people, who will no doubt fail to read the thread) that the tire is shitsville.

but look at the post to which i originally responded. what i'm saying is, no, i'm unwilling just to stipulate to the 4000's ubiquitous aeroness.

Are you looking at the 23C or 25C GP4K?...'cuz by my eye, the 23 is basically tied at 5deg and below, and then beats the 23C Schwalbe One above that.

Of course, once you add in the Crr effects (see the other Flo interactive chart I linked to above), it's not even close. Both the 25C AND 23C GP4K handily beat the Schwalbe by ~3-4W (for front wheel alone) across the board.

So...the point isn't that the GP4000S is THE lowest drag tire out there. However, it IS pretty darned fast in that sense, even in regards to tires that came out AFTER it and blatantly copied some of its aero "secret sauce" (accidental "sauce", or not).

Again, the reason it's held up as a default "hard to beat" choice, especially if no other data is present, is because of the COMBINATION of pretty damned good aero, pretty low Crr, AND having better than normal (for fast tires) durability. It's that simple.

Anyway, the post you were responding to merely said the GP4000S performed really well in wind tunnel tests. It does. It may not be THE best, but it's close enough that it's other properties (including price) make it somewhat of a "gold standard", especially for long-course, age-group triathlons.



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New tires? Conti GP 4000 RS limited edition [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
I do recall that the aerodynamic properties of the GP4000S II were an accident but it was an accident that prompted many wheel manufacturers to design around that tire and at least one tire manufacturer (Schwalbe) to investigate the effect of tread patterns on aerodynamics (Schwalbe Ironman). WRT Swisside, the fastest tire was an Attack put on backwards. However, the margin of drag reduction versus an Attack run forwards or a GP4000S was rather small.

BTW, Flo tested against more tires than anyone else I'm aware of!!!! https://flocycling.com/aero_tire_study.php

I count twenty tires.


thx. i didn't see that. i saw another one from FLO, but not that. you realize that, while very marginal, the schwalbe outperformed the 4000 on that, yes? until you got to 12.5°. and you've also seen all the data on how, past 12.5°, you're pretty much no longer in a race conditions you'll see more than 2 or 3 percent of the time. so, if on THAT graph you're looking for the fastest tire, the 4000 is the fastest tire by far in conditions that you'll almost never see.

which, again, isn't to say the 4000 is anything other than a great tire. and i'm sure by the end of this thread i'll have said (according to some people, who will no doubt fail to read the thread) that the tire is shitsville.

but look at the post to which i originally responded. what i'm saying is, no, i'm unwilling just to stipulate to the 4000's ubiquitous aeroness.


Are you looking at the 23C or 25C GP4K?...'cuz by my eye, the 23 is basically tied at 5deg and below, and then beats the 23C Schwalbe One above that.

Of course, once you add in the Crr effects (see the other Flo interactive chart I linked to above), it's not even close. Both the 25C AND 23C GP4K handily beat the Schwalbe by ~3-4W (for front wheel alone) across the board.

So...the point isn't that the GP4000S is THE lowest drag tire out there. However, it IS pretty darned fast in that sense, even in regards to tires that came out AFTER it and blatantly copied some of its aero "secret sauce" (accidental "sauce", or not).

Again, the reason it's held up as a default "hard to beat" choice, especially if no other data is present, is because of the COMBINATION of pretty damned good aero, pretty low Crr, AND having better than normal (for fast tires) durability. It's that simple.

Anyway, the post you were responding to merely said the GP4000S performed really well in wind tunnel tests. It does. It may not be THE best, but it's close enough that it's other properties (including price) make it somewhat of a "gold standard", especially for long-course, age-group triathlons.

what i'm saying is, i find it hard to believe that the tire performs well de facto. i'm sure it does perform well in certain circumstances, but if you place that tire on rims that have different inside bead distances, the tire will change shape every time. and depending on the rim you stick it in, it's going to perform better or less well.

again - 3rd time in 3 posts - i'm not saying the tire is not a great tire. i'm not saying anything about rolling resistance, price, availability, sex appeal, or whether it smells better than other tires in its competitive set. i just am pushing back on the post to which i replied, which seems to assert that this is a de facto superior tire aerodynamically (to other tires, i assume), without any qualification.

for example, i just put a tubeless zipp tire on a tubeless zipp aero rim yesterday, and was happily surprised that it goes on more easily than most tube tires. this instantly makes that a combo worth considering, as i note the crr of tubeless tire after tubeless tire.

so, i don't know, but must assume that zipp is making tires that perform well with its rims aerodynamically. there's the products people talk about, and the products people buy, and in the kona bike count zipp is on more bikes than the next 10 wheel brands combined. in the real world people live in, which is zipp's world, is conti the most aero tire? i don't know. maybe.

i'm just not willing to stipulate that the conti beats everything aerodynamically. value? all things considered? most of the time? probably so. but, aerodynamically? it's certainly the equal of most tires most of the time at 10 degrees and below, but on the fatter rims i'd prefer to ride? maybe they are?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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