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Re: New Silca tubeless products [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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Tubeless works best when you have at least one of the following (1) high volume and (2) high pressure. MTB tires have high volume and road tires have high pressure. Cross tires have relatively low volume and very often want to run low pressure. Low volume and low pressure is a challenging combo for tubeless and you risk burping and losing air.

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Re: New Silca tubeless products [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I've had many instances of small cuts or punctures that I rode home at a minimum, or for weeks/months after basically forgetting. During a big ride this spring I heard the rear tire pop. I stopped and saw sealant bubbling out and was pretty sure it would require a tube. I put my finger over it for :30 and the leak stopped. A few pumps of air and was on my way again.

I always wonder about #2, especially with a tubeless easy tire like the ProOne. Depending on the rim I've mounted them new by hand, and rarely with any more difficulty than a latex tube. More messy, yes, but I've never changed an inner tube and not had dirty hands after either.
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
I've had many instances of small cuts or punctures that I rode home at a minimum, or for weeks/months after basically forgetting. During a big ride this spring I heard the rear tire pop. I stopped and saw sealant bubbling out and was pretty sure it would require a tube. I put my finger over it for :30 and the leak stopped. A few pumps of air and was on my way again.

I always wonder about #2, especially with a tubeless easy tire like the ProOne. Depending on the rim I've mounted them new by hand, and rarely with any more difficulty than a latex tube. More messy, yes, but I've never changed an inner tube and not had dirty hands after either.

Yes...and, to be fair, I have also witnessed a rider on a tubeless setup get an obvious puncture (as indicated by the sound and spray) and then continue riding on for another 20-30 miles with the group. I was certain he would need to stop. Then again, that's the only time I've seen that...

As you point out as well, the "tightness" of the beads is a very individual property of the manufacturer...Hutchinsons are the worst IME. I've broken tire levers with those. IRCs actually haven't been too bad. The Schwalbe One I mounted recently had some relatively "thick" shaped molding at the bead area which made it a bit difficult to get on and off (as compared to typical clinchers) especially on "tubeless ready" rims, with the raised rim bed under the rim bead area. YMMV.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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To be fair, a guy did bitch at me when he got sprayed with sealant from tire...

Some of the early Hutchinsons were a mother f*cker to get on. The ProOne is much better. And it also seems to depend on rim. More difficult on a Hed Ardennes+, easier on a pair of Easton EC90SLs that I had. Going to mount to a set of Enves and am curious how that goes.
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
To be fair, a guy did bitch at me when he got sprayed with sealant from tire...

I'm guilty of doing that to one of the local collegiate racers when he rode straight over a big field of broken glass on a group ride and sprayed sealant everywhere...then he really got an earful when we had to stop (because it didn't seal) and it turns out he had no tube and no CO2 or pump :-/

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
Some of the early Hutchinsons were a mother f*cker to get on. The ProOne is much better. And it also seems to depend on rim. More difficult on a Hed Ardennes+, easier on a pair of Easton EC90SLs that I had. Going to mount to a set of Enves and am curious how that goes.

Mounting the Pro One on Aeolus wheels was shockingly easy for me (and I am a limp-wristed pansy boy). No levers needed, and not very difficult by hand. Mounting Specialized S-Works Turbo Road Tubeless on the same rims was a completely different story. I had to use levers and was very careful, as I swore I was close to snapping those levers in my hands.

And to the question of why tubeless offers increased air volume over clinchers, isn't it true that given the same outside tire dimension, a tubeless tire will have more air volume than a clincher because the space that would otherwise be occupied by the tube is instead occupied as air?

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Re: New Silca tubeless products [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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The tubeless GP4000 S is just a rumor at this point. I've seen it floated on a few different forums and heard shop talk... but I suspect it will remain a rumor for now. Maybe we'll see something at Eurobike.
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I'm curious to see how this pans out. I had a set of Hutchinson tubeless road tires (don't recall the model) on a pair of Jet 4+ wheels I bought off a local rider. They rode nicely but man were they a bitch to get off and he had some sort of cobbled-together valve setup that didn't exactly instill confidence. I literally resorted to cutting the tires off and I put my go-to GP 4000s on with easy thumb pressure. That really turned me off to the idea of road tubeless. No way I could've dealt with that on the side of the road.

Let us know how the Schwalbe Pro One "Tubeless Easy" work out. I want road tubeless to work but right now my ultimate fear is having a flat and not being able to put a tube in in a timely manner.

I'm loving my GP TT tires. They ride so nice I have to restrain myself from riding them in training! The box said "special edition". I wonder what's special about them. Hmmm....
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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refthimos wrote:
Carl Spackler wrote:
Some of the early Hutchinsons were a mother f*cker to get on. The ProOne is much better. And it also seems to depend on rim. More difficult on a Hed Ardennes+, easier on a pair of Easton EC90SLs that I had. Going to mount to a set of Enves and am curious how that goes.

Mounting the Pro One on Aeolus wheels was shockingly easy for me (and I am a limp-wristed pansy boy). No levers needed, and not very difficult by hand. Mounting Specialized S-Works Turbo Road Tubeless on the same rims was a completely different story. I had to use levers and was very careful, as I swore I was close to snapping those levers in my hands.

And to the question of why tubeless offers increased air volume over clinchers, isn't it true that given the same outside tire dimension, a tubeless tire will have more air volume than a clincher because the space that would otherwise be occupied by the tube is instead occupied as air?

That may be a bit too literal with the concept of "more air volume" :-/

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Don't get me wrong...if someone finally makes a tubeless tire as fast as the Turbo Cottons with latex, I will probably run them at some point on my road bike, especially for certain events (such as the Belgian Waffle Ride :-)

I think that tire already exists in term of RR, it's the Vittoria Corsa Speed Tubeless Ready 700x23. Then there is the aero problem of cotton casing + glued on thread... but that is the same problem you face with Turbo Cotton and like you said "RR can make up for a lot of aero sins" ;-).
Also, the Corsa Speed TLR has quite a thin thread, making the gap from thread to casing a bit thinner than on other "open tubular type" tire.

Here is my front wheel for Ironman Nice with Corsa Speed TLR on it : LINK. Holds air perfectly with 30gr of Orange Seal.

The Speed Shield would definitely be a nice addition so something I'll consider !
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [pyf] [ In reply to ]
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Where did you buy the Vittoria Corsa Speed TLR tyres???


Chema Marin
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [pyf] [ In reply to ]
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pyf wrote:
Tom A. wrote:

Don't get me wrong...if someone finally makes a tubeless tire as fast as the Turbo Cottons with latex, I will probably run them at some point on my road bike, especially for certain events (such as the Belgian Waffle Ride :-)


I think that tire already exists in term of RR, it's the Vittoria Corsa Speed Tubeless Ready 700x23. Then there is the aero problem of cotton casing + glued on thread... but that is the same problem you face with Turbo Cotton and like you said "RR can make up for a lot of aero sins" ;-).
Also, the Corsa Speed TLR has quite a thin thread, making the gap from thread to casing a bit thinner than on other "open tubular type" tire.

Here is my front wheel for Ironman Nice with Corsa Speed TLR on it : LINK. Holds air perfectly with 30gr of Orange Seal.

The Speed Shield would definitely be a nice addition so something I'll consider !

We shall see if it is or is not...the one thing I'm really intrigued by that tire IS the fact it uses an "open tubular" type construction. I think that's a tubeless first...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom - which IRC tires are you running? I picked up a pair of the Roadlite tubeless a couple months ago for use as training tires and have been really impressed with the all around performance, but they are a bit pricey. I would like to give the Formula Pro's a try as I am intrigued by the whole latex air barrier thing, but haven't been able to find any Crr test results.
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [JesseN] [ In reply to ]
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JesseN wrote:
Tom - which IRC tires are you running? I picked up a pair of the Roadlite tubeless a couple months ago for use as training tires and have been really impressed with the all around performance, but they are a bit pricey. I would like to give the Formula Pro's a try as I am intrigued by the whole latex air barrier thing, but haven't been able to find any Crr test results.

I've used both the Roadlite and Formula Pro. The Roadlite is the better of the 2 IMO, The Formula Pro is a bit fragile...I flatted one on my second ride on it as a rear, and again ~1 week later. Both times required a tube to be swapped in. That was it for me on that tire.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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So most of our office has been on either the One or ProOne Tubeless over the last year and they have both been good, but the ProOne is excellent. I really like they way they just pop and seal quickly, we were able to get the ProOne to seat using an Impero frame pump! We've had a few instances of getting to work and finding sealant bubbles on the tires from glass (our office is not in the best neighborhood..) and in none of the cases did the rider even know it had happened. Mainly, they feel and roll like a GP4000 with latex and so far they seem to wear a bit better.

I look forward to trying both the Specialized Turbo and the CorsaSpeed TLR, both of these are made by Vittoria and the data I've seen and the claims being made are really impressive for tires with this level of puncture resistance plus the benefit of sealant..we'll see.

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Re: New Silca tubeless products [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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I bet those sealant bubbles you found were weakness in the tyre and was never a glass cut or similar.
MTB tyres get em all the time, it's just the sealant slowly navigating it's way through until it can be seen.

The only flats I ever get on latex tubes in gp4000 is the sidewall totally slashed by a sharp rock.
Sealant has no hope in that situation.

Tubeless is great on my mountain bikes, nowhere near workable on a road bikes yet.
Maybe when we are all riding 28mm tyres at 65psi, but not yet.
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Josh, can you make some magnets that work on Zipp wheels that doesn't spin the spoke and let either the spoke become a aero brake or the magnet hit the sensor or move too far away?

The best I have found so far is to glue as small as possble super magnet to the spoke and then wrap it with some self amalgamating tape, but still spins eventually.

The magnet assembly needs to be balanced so it doesn't try to spin the spoke.
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks lyrrad,
Actually working on something now, in testing currently and will keep everybody informed when it's ready. We had hoped to launch that product with the stuff we just released, but can't always manage to align the stars quite like that!!
Best
J

http://www.SILCA.cc
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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Josh,

Can you comment on the heat resistance of the tape with a carbon clincher and rim brakes? Say compared to a latex tube, which I ordinarily run without issue.

I ride Knight wheels, and one of the guys there told me he's been using your conversion kit and thinks it's amazing.

After hearing that I rushed over to your site to order, I saw some features listings referenced "road disc wheels," while others refer to "road wheels" generally. Beyond that is a warning that rim brakes may generate enough heat to be a problem.

I emailed your customer service, but the responses were so unhelpful that I felt after two back and forths that the representative was intentionally avoiding a direct answer, presumably because it would either deter me from ordering by saying it's a bad idea or create liability by saying it's fine.

Thanks in advance for any help.
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [HLS2k6] [ In reply to ]
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HLS2K6, this is the issue that puts us and everybody else in the legal position of saying 'use at your own risk'.

Our platinum rim tape is made from a higher strength grade of base film as most of the other tubeless tapes on the market, so it has a similar melt point (actually 10 deg F higher..but nearly identical). The Platinum Tape film is stronger than other tapes, but we use that property to make it slightly thinner, which gives it much better conformability to the rim bed at an equivalent strength to something like the popular yellow tape. The Platinum tape does have a higher strength, full-synthetic adhesive, that is more heat tolerant than the natural rubber adhesive used elsewhere, but that can only ensure reduced movement of the tape and once the tape film begins to melt, the adhesive can't do much anyway.

The problem with this from a system perspective is that we can't control the system in a way that allows us to safely make blanket statements. This is why nobody making tubeless tape really says much of anything about rim brakes. Similar to latex tubes, what works for a 160lb person on 500 gram rims will be very different for somebody who weighs 220lbs on 300 gram rims, and that's before we even begin to talk about what you are descending and for how long..

Our testing has shown the tape to have similar heat tolerance to latex inner tubes in practice, that is to say that if a latex tube bursts due to heat after 2 minutes of 300 Watt Braking input, then our rim tape will fail similarly. Technically the tape has about a 30 degree advantage over a latex tube, but as the tape is directly against the rim surface, it sees more heat, whereas a latex tube will be slightly insulated by whatever rim tape you are using.

As with any tape, using more will add safety margin, we are working on some technical data now, but using 3 wraps instead of 2 puts you at the weight of 2 wraps of yellow tape, but significantly stronger AND higher temperature resistance due to the insulating effect of the additional layers of adhesive, 4 wraps would be even better for the same reason. Of course, just like latex tubes, the real key is brake modulation and ensuring you have the right pads for your rims.

Hope that helps

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Re: New Silca tubeless products [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome. Thanks so much, Josh.
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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This might be off topic and I don't currently run tubeless, but I have wondered if veloplugs could ever be integrated into a better tubeless set up. The veloplugs are not fully airtight, but they easily resist very high pressures (when used with a tube). In theory, for a tubeless set up, a rim bed sealant tape could go over the veloplugs but the tape would not need to have the super strength to resist the high air pressure, and could just be used to fully seal the already plugged spoke hole. Or, am I missing something?

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Re: New Silca tubeless products [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Specialized includes some sort of veloplug like plugs with o-rings around them specifically for use in tubeless setups with the Roval 64s. So you are not far off base at all.
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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A few years ago I converted a set of Velocity A23 wheels to tubeless just as you described. Veloplugs with two wraps of packing tape. Worked fine for two years, then passed the wheels to a friend who is still using them and am now using Velocity Ailerons, tubeless of course.

The only sue I found was that the Hutchinson tires were hard to seat, but then that could have been jus the rims.
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Re: New Silca tubeless products [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
pyf wrote:
Tom A. wrote:

Don't get me wrong...if someone finally makes a tubeless tire as fast as the Turbo Cottons with latex, I will probably run them at some point on my road bike, especially for certain events (such as the Belgian Waffle Ride :-)


I think that tire already exists in term of RR, it's the Vittoria Corsa Speed Tubeless Ready 700x23. Then there is the aero problem of cotton casing + glued on thread... but that is the same problem you face with Turbo Cotton and like you said "RR can make up for a lot of aero sins" ;-).
Also, the Corsa Speed TLR has quite a thin thread, making the gap from thread to casing a bit thinner than on other "open tubular type" tire.

Here is my front wheel for Ironman Nice with Corsa Speed TLR on it : LINK. Holds air perfectly with 30gr of Orange Seal.

The Speed Shield would definitely be a nice addition so something I'll consider !


We shall see if it is or is not...the one thing I'm really intrigued by that tire IS the fact it uses an "open tubular" type construction. I think that's a tubeless first...


Tom, sorry I'm late to get back to you...

Alban Lorenzini tested the Corsa Speed TLR as being the fastest among the fastest tires (in RR) generally used (Turbo Cotton and Grand Prix TT).
I rode the Corsa Speed TLR with 30gr of Orange Sealant at 70.3 Aix en Provence and during some training rides after that and they have been faultless, to my surprise even in the puncture resistance area, no cut on the thread and no sealant anywhere on the tire or frame. So far so good... now I must stop using them and keep them for Ironman Nice.
Only problem being I now need a rear disc wheel that's tubeless compatible, not so many options (Flo, Hed, Revolver or wheel cover on a tubeless wheel...).

Josh, with your tubeless conversion can a Super 9 CC be used tubeless ?
That's the one thing I don't get with your tubeless products, they are all shown on a 404 firecrest which does not have any kind of tubeless shape at the tire bed... so it makes me wonder if it's safe to run tubeless on Zipp wheels with your tape, shield and valve or not ?


Last edited by: pyf: May 10, 16 2:38
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