Its too hard to see with that video and the leg movement.

With the new 4 month rule we will definitely know very soo as the window is closing.

I think saucony might have to push their release forward and I wonder what we will see from other brands too.

I am really anxious to have a good Hoka racer come out. I have tried both the Rocket and the Carbon. Currently race in the Carbon X. I like everything about it, except the weight of it. If they could somehow bring the weight of the shoe down without dramatically affecting the comfort of the shoe, it would get a 10/10 from me. Even if it meant I had to pay more. Would obviously be a perk if they could show empirical proof of the shoe being faster too. Like basically Nike (or 3rd parties) have done for the 4%/Next.

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- Jordan

My Strava

I guess the hot date for releases will be April 8th (4 months before women's marathon) for distance/road shoes.

Question from a lazy guy, did anyone read into what their definition of public availability is? I think I remember the Vaporfly elite was kind of sold to some people, can Nike basically release 100 pairs of the alphafly to the public and call it even? I have to imagine that some of these shoe releases by any company that were planned for the summer and now need to pushed up to April may mean extremely limited releases just to qualify...

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

I wouldn't consider Clifton Edge to be a fast shoe, definitely not for an elite marathoner on race day

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Boots
Fleet Feet Rochester, NY
Fleet Feet Buffalo, NY
YellowJacket Racing, Rochester, NY

[Question from a lazy guy, did anyone read into what their definition of public availability is? I think I remember the Vaporfly elite was kind of sold to some people, can Nike basically release 100 pairs of the alphafly to the public and call it even? I have to imagine that some of these shoe releases by any company that were planned for the summer and now need to pushed up to April may mean extremely limited releases just to qualify...[/quote]
That's kind of the issue, they didn't define it that's I've seen so it will be very easy to work around it. Retail release 100 pairs in Atlanta, maybe put 100 more on a website, there you go, they were available for sale 4 months in advance. Heck they don't even define if it just has to be available 1 time four months in advance or for the entire 4 months

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Boots
Fleet Feet Rochester, NY
Fleet Feet Buffalo, NY
YellowJacket Racing, Rochester, NY

Yes, probably few hundreds sold on internet and shops before "the date" will be enough.
Then much more significants numbers right after, and the following months (all that before the race), in order to prove this is real global availability, not a fake one.

So... February and March are going to be rich with announcements and first sales for :

Saucony Endorphin Pro (then Speed and Shift)
Brooks Hyperion Elite (then Tempo)
NB Racer (TC or/and RC ?)
Adidas : any news apart few photos ?
Asics : ???
Nike : Alphawhatever 300€ unstable shoe with Salazar signature ?

That's kind of the issue, they didn't define it that's I've seen so it will be very easy to work around it. Retail release 100 pairs in Atlanta, maybe put 100 more on a website, there you go, they were available for sale 4 months in advance. Heck they don't even define if it just has to be available 1 time four months in advance or for the entire 4 months[/quote]
Can they put a crazy price tag on them,say $10k?

I do not think it is an issue,

General availability is easy to control :
the first pieces are available before "the date", then sufficient number to fill the demand, during the following 4 months before the competition.
"Sufficient number to fill the demand" is easy to control. You try to buy one, any size.
You succeed : OK
Not successful : then you retry. If problem persist, then you have a problem. And IAAF is able to say "not good, ban".

It was impossible to give sales numbers, as numbers will depend on the brand (for big brand, big numbers, and for small brand, small numbers). "General availability" is better.

You want to put a very very high price ? Go ahead. Nobody will buy your shit.

The situation now is much much better than before Rio, or these 4 last years.
Good regulation on stack height.
Good regulation on availability.
No more exclusive prototypes. real competition, thank god (sport god, or justice god, whatever).

I'd put money on the fact that Nike still puts out the fastest shoes in lab and real life testing. I know they didn't work for you and I wanted to be a dissenter but they are better and faster for me in a way that I can easily quantify with data.

There is a Hoka One One Trail shoe with Carbon also in the works.

The New Balance has been slated for an April release all along. Maybe a few will get it early.

Saucony and Brooks will have their work cut out for them. The shoes were planned for a June release which is late. That means they will fly shoes into somewhere early. The most favorite place by all I think is the Boston Marathon.

Hoka One One only needs to worry about the racing shoe. That one had a release date but because of the rule they are probably rethinking that plan.

AlphaFly is slated to be released with a single plate probably in that April time frame as well.

Asics is early spring

Adidas is probably behind with that shoe we saw in Houston. That was a true prototype. If they don’t have molds open in sizes already they won’t make an April date.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

2016 to 2019 :
VF 4% and Next are indeed more efficient than old flats (Adizero, Streak, ...). By 2 to 5%. Depending on foot strike, speed, ....
More confortable.
But they are unstable, which limit their use for many peoples.

2020 :
many brands issue similar shoes, within new regulations.
Maybe new Nike are better than some of these new shoes, by 0,5%. Maybe not.
Some of the other brand shoes are probably more stable, and less expensive.

The "VF gap" is closed. That is a fact.

I've never understood the instability comment. Is this only for people with muscular skeletal insufficiency or weakness? I've only known of one other person who had this issue and they were a long time Hoka user which made me wonder if the usage of Hoka shoes had caused them issues or if they had natural issues which made the Hokas suitable for them. A chicken or the egg type of thing.

I can't run in Hokas (full disclosure I quite after trying a few models though I gave each one 50 miles or so to really test) to save my life. They feel awful and slow.

I should clarify. My comment mostly is with regard to those that I know who run in Hoka shoes. They typically are either older or have had significant injuries. It seems like those types of runners seem to really benefit from what Hoka offers.

When I look at the shoe I understand : big hole on the medial side
When I walk with the shoe I understand : only the outside of my heel is supported
When I run with the shoe I understand : forefoot strike is ok, but heel strike is pushing the foot inside
Every people i know trying the shoe understand

Many people here confirm. Most serious tester also.

And...the VF destroyed my posterior tibialis before I run a single km in a Hoka. So I guess Hoka is not responsible :-)
I was using On Running and NB at this time. Fairly stable shoes. Much more stable than VF. Less stable than Hoka, but not bad.

But VF is history. It is a dead shoe, now. Next is dead also.

I'm 53
I'm not an experienced runner (so more fragile probably)

What I found in Hoka : stability + front foot cushion

Hopefully, amongst the "new generation shoes" inspired of the VF4%, one or two of them will be stable enough for me to use them.
VF was too unstable, and forefoot cushion was not great
Next stability is "mmmeeehh"
Carbon X is very stable and well cushioned, but I'm sure I can benefit from a little more front foot softness and springiness

In the months to come, I have several models to tests : the NB Racer TC and RC, Endorphin Pro and Speed (love the black / gold color), Brooks Hyperion x2, Alphafly, new Hoka, ...

I know the efficiency come from the forefoot + heel cushion. Add a plate. Deliver some stability. And a fair price...

Interesting post as I have just started to see the carbons being discounted online up to half price. Your prediction is valid

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What defines fair price to you? If any of the new shoes are less than $200 I'd be shocked. More likely closer to $250, somewhere in between. Nike has shown that people are willing to pay that much, so of course everyone is going to charge that much. Also, I know a lot of people who run in the 4% and/or next% and nobody seems to complain about the stability. For me, they really dont feel much different in that regard than any other shoe I wear

 
Hello

1) The VF4% had a performance advantage (even if its lack of stability made it useless for many peoples). So people ready to pay for this advantage paid the price. Typical monopoly situation.
But if several shoes from different suppliers are available with the same level of performance, something called "competition" begin (invented long time ago by the god of evolution, because without competition, not evolution...).
And.... with several suppliers now launching similar shoes (same foams, same geometry, ....), this is happening now.

2) Saucony Endorphin Pro : same foam, similar carbon plate, same stack, very probably similar performance level, and most probably more stable : 200 USD
And the Speed, slightly more durable and heavy, with TPU plate instead of carbon plate (very probably no performance difference for most of us here in ST) : 160 USD

3) New Balance Racer TC : similar foam, similar carbon plate, same stack, very probably similar performance level, and most probably more stable : 200 USD

...

Maybe you will be shocked... I'm not, this is the usual way a market is regulated.

Somebody discover high stack of soft foam (Nike.... no, Hoka)
Somebody discover plate (Nike.... no)
Somebody discover rocker (Nike.... no, Hoka)
Somebody made the VF (Nike, yes)
Somebody regulate to 40mm of stack heigh
and then everybody will explore this new direction with different shoes, and price goes down to.... the previous usual price

History repeat.... Nike perf gap is gone in a few weeks... in a few months everybody will buy very good shoes performing like the VF under 200 USD, from different brand.
And in one year or two, under 150 USD.

Of course, some brand will continue to push some placebo at 300 USD.

Wow, did Nike eat your kids or something?

;-)

No, I am happy Nike created the VF, and I thank them for that.
I bought a pair.
They are not stable enough for me, but great shoes.

So, i thank Nike for creating them. Because some other brand will do the same. Nice cushy and efficient shoes.
Now, I'm happy there is a regulation making the Olympics more fair.
And I'm happy other brands create shoes similar to the VF, with great cushion and efficiency. Some of them hopefully being more stable, and less expensive.

Maybe... I'm 53 and have seen this phenomenom several time in several industry.
Somebody innovate, and this innovation is then generalized at a better price.
Some peoples say I hate Nike, while I'm just describing the fact they "discovered" something 8thanks for that), and now everybody will do the same with better prices.

I understand Nike fans (trolls ?) want to believe the "4%" performance gap is going to last forever.

But, most probably, with some shoes from competition coming these weeks, this perf gap is probably now very thin, if existing.

Let see if some real performance comparaisons arise in the following months between these shoes.

Hahaha! I ran 5k with VF4% last year and ran exact same course last Saturday with Next% and ran 30 sec faster and PRed. Placed 45th our of 1000 runners and first in my age group. Not bad for 50 year old guy so I love Nikes. Most of all, they made me feel more comfortable and running more fun. I hated run leg during any Tris but now I’m finally okay with it.

Not sure why you're calling them (us?) trolls. They're great shoes.

Who said the gap will last forever? Never seen that comment by Nike fans. I think most, if not all, of us realize others will close the gap and that it's a good thing because prices will come down.

I agree with that.

Gap will close and price go down : 2 goods news.

The shoe is definitely unstable. Watch athletes with poor OR weak mechanical infrastructure and you can see it. There are many athletes already surfacing with achilles, calf and posterior tibialis injuries after switching to the VP 4 or Next % shoe. Many more will follow. The shoe is definitely not for everyone, and very bad for some

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com