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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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lacticturkey wrote:
Wow, that looks freaking amazing Damon!

After your speed concept blew the doors off the industry on all performance, innovation and aesthetic levels... Everything you design should have your signature on it

Respect!

Thanks lacticturkey, but I must emphasize this Cannondale SystemSix project was a big team effort, with several other engineers and designers too. I'll pass along your praise to the team.

Cheers,
Damon

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Makes sense to slope the top tube for smaller sizes, I've seen that on pretty much every other bike, TT bikes included. But there was a deliberate decision to feature on the website/SystemSix product page the women's version at a smaller size with sloped top tube, despite all frames being portrayed at equal optical size. So it makes it look like the womens version is designed like that (look at the weaksauce Amira for example).

Would be good to hear from the women's product manager. Because of the bike is otherwise exactly the same and scales the same way with size, then the only difference is paint. So why the lesser groupset and compnents at the same price point?

(Ok I guess I am on a bit of a tirade)

Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer
Last edited by: Staer: Jul 2, 18 14:54
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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refthimos wrote:
A couple more random questions:



Hi Robert,

Quote:

Spacers: What is the stack height of an individual aero headset spacer? Will they be available in lower stack heights so riders can fine tune their stack, e.g. if they are "between" spacers?


Edited: Just checked, they're 12.5 and 7.5mm. Normal round spacers also work.

Quote:

Tires: Should we read anything in to the choice of the Vittoria Rubino Pro tires? Normally, I disregard the tires that come on a bike, because I'm just going to replace them with whatever it is that I prefer. I'm just wondering how much we should infer from the "system" approach - did it go as far as tires or did the product manager just cut a great deal with Vittoria?


Yes. Including both aero & Crr, it's the fastest road racing tire we tested, including Schwalbe, Continental, Michelin, and others.

To save a lot of typing, I'll just paste from the white paper (you can find the data in figure 20):

Quote: "Effect of Tires on Wheel Performance
Tires have a profound influence on the drag of a wheel. Figure 20 shows the KNØT64 rim tested with a range of different tires, all similar width. Drag at low yaw is tightly grouped with only small differences between tires. But at higher yaw angles the effect of tires on stall is pronounced; note the magnitude of difference at 15 degrees yaw angle. The stall of the wheel is not only connected with the width of the tire but also the construction method
and tread profile. The fact that the biggest differences occur at high yaw angles also highlights the value of yaw weighted drag in evaluating on road performance.

Our approach to wheels and tires is consistent with the whole SystemSix project; focussed on speed. As we identified earlier, performance is not just about aerodynamics. This is especially true for wheels and tires as we must consider both the aerodynamic performance and the rolling resistance of a tire. A tire that tests well in the wind tunnel may have high rolling resistance that nullifies any aerodynamic benefit. Similarly, a low rolling resistance tire might be compromised by poor aerodynamics. We analyze performance using the power model taking yaw weighted drag from the wind tunnel and combining with the rolling resistance of each tire to model on road power differences. From this we can then determine the fastest combination.


There are several public sources for rolling resistance data available, including conducting your own testing at home. We find bicyclerollingresistance.com a great resource for comparing the performance of a large range of road tires. SystemSix comes with Vittoria Rubino Pro Speed tires which were selected due to their balance of low drag and low rolling resistance. The Corsa G+ is another high performance tire from Vittoria but is hand-made, whereas the Rubino is vulcanised. The two tires are manufactured from identical compounds which leads to very similar rolling resistance. However, handmade tires like the Corsa generally have a significant aerodynamic penalty. Overall performance therefore favors the Rubino Pro Speed. Just another area where SystemSix delivers more speed to more riders."

Quote:
Seems a little odd not to offer a tubeless tire with the tubeless Knot wheels (even though I understand the decision to ship bikes with tubes in them for the average consumer), when you could ship it with Schwalbe Pro Ones, which have tested about 1W faster and are tubeless compatible. And you already include Pro Ones with other bikes, like the CAAD12 Dura-Ace Disc. At least for now.


We included the Pro One in our testing and found the Rubino Pro Speed faster. The rims are tubeless compatible because the market expects rims to be tubeless compatible today, and it gives you options.

By the way, the KNOT64 rim shape is quite aero-neutral to tires of different widths (between 26 and 30mm measured). We found more performance variation due to tire make & model than due to width. For example, even a wider 25C (~29 measured) Rubino Pro Speed out performed a narrower 23C (~26mm measured) Corsa Speed.

Last comment on the Vittoria Rubino Pro family of tires: in the wind tunnel we found them to mimic the vaunted Conti 4000sII in their consistently great aero performance. It may become a new favorite for some people.

Cheers,
Damon

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
Last edited by: damon_rinard: Jul 9, 18 14:44
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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damon_rinard wrote:
Last comment on the Vittoria Rubino Pro family of tires: in the wind tunnel we found them to mimic the vaunted Conti 4000sII in their consistently great aero performance. It may become a new favorite for some people.

So it seems we may have found another "magic aero" tire, at least with this particular "system"



There's a lot to like with this bike, err... "system." It's almost like the downtube logo placement was intentional [ ;-) ], to give us something to complain about, since there are so many well thought out details and the whole thing comes together so nicely.

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Damon,

I hope your back heals quickly, completely. Great work on this bike and give my best to Nathan too.

I'm really thrilled that the steer will accept other stems - however the Knot stem/bar system looks great and I know many of my customers will want to keep it if they can. Regarding the Knot stem/bar spec on each size - it looks to be -17deg.....What is the bar curve and stem length on each size?

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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damon_rinard wrote:
By the way, the KNOT64 rim shape is quite aero-neutral to tires of different widths (between 26 and 30mm measured). We found more performance variation due to tire make & model than due to width. For example, even a wider 25C (~29 measured) Rubino Pro Speed out performed a narrower 23C (~26mm measured) Corsa Speed.

That absolutely gels with what we've seen testing HED wheels and, since at least part of the wheel shape (or the tire/wheel interface) is licensed from HED, it makes perfect sense.

The only reason I chime in is to let everyone know there's some independent verification of Damon's claim, not that he needs it. I think we all know how trustworthy he is.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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damon_rinard wrote:


Damon (good luck with your back),
Do you think there will be a way to add clip-on's to this proprietary handlebar?

(Or should I hold my comments until I see the SuperSlice? :-) )

TIA

________________________________________________
Proud member of FISHTWITCH: beating you to T1 for over a decade, and working on beating you to T2...
Last edited by: TriSliceRS: Jul 2, 18 17:51
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Kudos for making the wheels tubeless ready, and for not playing it safe on the design. With the SuperSix, new BMC coming, the Trek Madone Disc and the next gen Specialized Vias Venge the bar has been set on next-gen aero super bikes. A bunch of manufacturers just saw their "race" bike fall out of contention with these new aero disc bikes.
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [elf6c] [ In reply to ]
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When might we expect dealers to have stock?
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [TriSliceRS] [ In reply to ]
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TriSliceRS wrote:
damon_rinard wrote:


Damon (good luck with your back),
Do you think there will be a way to add clip-on's to this proprietary handlebar?

(Or should I hold my comments until I see the SuperSlice? :-) )

TIA

For a dual purpose rig, You may have to go to something like a TriRig Sigma stem and a Vision Metron 4D Flat bar



"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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refthimos wrote:
So it seems we may have found another "magic aero" tire, at least with this particular "system"


Wow, I love it! Ha ha.

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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ianpeace wrote:
Damon,

I hope your back heals quickly, completely. Great work on this bike and give my best to Nathan too.

I'm really thrilled that the steer will accept other stems - however the Knot stem/bar system looks great and I know many of my customers will want to keep it if they can. Regarding the Knot stem/bar spec on each size - it looks to be -17deg.....What is the bar curve and stem length on each size?

Ian

Hi Ian,

Thanks for the well wishes, I hope the same!

I don't have the size-by-size specs with me here at home, but you're right the KNOT stems are indeed -17, come in 8-12 cm lengths and are scaled with frame size.

The KNOT bars are made in 38, 40, 42 and 44cm widths. The drops have a typical compact ergo bend in all sizes. The drops are rolled inward so the width at the ends is 1 cm wider and the width at the hoods is 2 cm narrower. This is similar to a few other low-drag drop bars and helps encourage the rider into low-drag positions, but of course riders should feel free to change it up to fit however they like.

And you are also correct, the fork accepts any stem (thus you can use any bar). In fact the EF/Drapac p/b Cannondale pro team is sponsored by FSA/Vision and uses stock Vision stems and bars to good effect.

Cheers,
Damon

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Jim. Good correlation strengthens the observations.
Cheers,
Damon

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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I have a himod ultegra di2 on order, can’t wait !!
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [Staer] [ In reply to ]
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Staer wrote:
Would be good to hear from the women's product manager. Because if the bike is otherwise exactly the same and scales the same way with size, then the only difference is paint. So why the lesser groupset and components at the same price point?

If this is correct, you will never hear back from Cannondale on this. They would have no answer for this other than they think women can be fleeced for more money.
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Damon,

For the 38cm bars, what stem length(s) will be available? Will it be possible to get a 110 or 120 stem length?

Thanks

Matthew
Twitter: @AlphaDogCycling
Instagram: @AlphaDogCycling
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [TriSliceRS] [ In reply to ]
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TriSliceRS wrote:
Damon (good luck with your back),
Do you think there will be a way to add clip-on's to this proprietary handlebar?
TIA

Hi TriSliceRS (nice username!),

We considered making the KNOT drop bar clip-on compatible but decided against it. Gary p already named a good solution: Vision 4D drop bars. They come stock on three of the five SystemSix models.

Cheers,
Damon

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [RONDAL] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Rondal,

Depends on size and model. Please check with your local Cannondale dealer.

Cheers,
Damon

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Hi gary p,

you got it. The Vision 4D is a good low drag drop bar, and as you mention it works with clip ons. And thanks for finding and posting the photo.

As I mentioned above, we've speced it stock on three of the five SystemSix models.

Cheers,
Damon


gary p wrote:
For a dual purpose rig, You may have to go to something like a TriRig Sigma stem and a Vision Metron 4D Flat bar


Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [alphadogcycling] [ In reply to ]
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alphadogcycling wrote:
Damon,

For the 38cm bars, what stem length(s) will be available? Will it be possible to get a 110 or 120 stem length?

Thanks

Hi alphadogcycling,

All KNOt stem lengths are compatible with all KNOT bar widths. This is one of the reasons we didn't go with a one-piece bar+stem design.

Another reasons is the KNOT SystemBar allows 8 degrees of pitch adjustment, to give you a chance for your preferred bar angle compared to a fixed one-piece design.

Cheers,
Damon

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Damon,

That's great news. Weird that it isn't on the Cannondale site. Or if it is, it is really well hidden.

Matthew
Twitter: @AlphaDogCycling
Instagram: @AlphaDogCycling
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [alphadogcycling] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, we tried to get all the details in there but there is so much info...!

It's in the white paper in the "Cockpit" section. Here's the white paper:
https://www.cannondale.com/...emSix_Whitepaper.pdf

Here's what it says:

Quote:
Cockpit
The KNØT SystemBar and Stem is a unique
setup designed specifically for SystemSix. It
provides the integration of a one-piece bar
and stem but retains the fit and adjustability
of a two-piece system. The cockpit, especially
the handlebar, has a profound impact on
the drag of the bicycle system and so it
is an important element of performance.
However, a cockpit is central to fit and
rider comfort on the bike. Herein lies the
advantage of an integrated two-piece setup.
The KNØT SystemBar comes in four widths: 38,
40, 42 and 44cm. Every size bar has a 30mm
flair from the hoods to the end of the drops.
A size 42cm bar measures 40cm at the hoods
and widens 30mm at the end of the drops
(center-to-center). This narrower than standard
hoods position is designed to further help the
rider maximise their speed. Narrower hand
positions reduce frontal area and can help
reduce drag on the rider, while maintaining
width in the drops for stability when needed.
The bar a stem interface permits 8° of pitch
adjustment in the handlebar. The bar tops use an airfoil section with a large truncation.
This is relatively insensitive to pitch angle and
ensures flow remains attached at all positions.
Therefore, drag penalty from personalizing
your bar position is negligible. The bar cross
section has large radi on the trailing edge for
better ergonomics, but without sacrificing on
aerodynamic performance. Utilizing a very
gradual taper on the bar means that flow
remains attached to the end, even when pitched
up or down. With flow attached over the full
chord of the bar, adding a large radius has
negligible effect on the drag. If more comfort
is desired then the bar tops can be wrapped
with a relatively small aerodynamic penalty. Our
wind tunnel testing showed that fully wrapping
the bars, like a traditional round bar, only adds
0.001 m2 drag; < 1W at 40 km/h (~25 mph).
The KNØT stem comes in a range of lengths
to allow riders to dial in their fit: 80, 90, 100,
110 and 120mm. The stem is an open c-section
design that cradles the handlebar and permits
easy assembly. The lower cover then snaps into
place once all the cables are in place. This is
coupled with a split-hinge spacer design that
allows a spacer to be added or removed without
disconnecting hydraulic hoses or shift housing."

End quote.

Cheers,
Damon

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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damon_rinard wrote:
The KNØT SystemBar and Stem is a unique setup designed specifically for SystemSix...


Damon,

Deal!

I am 'in'. Just trying to figure out whether to do DA Di or Non-Di.

At last count, this would be my 17th Cannondale purchase. Happy fanboy here. Pretty excited.

________________________________________________
Proud member of FISHTWITCH: beating you to T1 for over a decade, and working on beating you to T2...
Last edited by: TriSliceRS: Jul 2, 18 19:50
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Damon,

there is a big shop in our neighbor city, they should get some soon .. great you/we got the HT and BB stiffness for all frame sizes with the notice of the sweet spot ..

Greetings and all the best for your convalescence

Hanno

p.s. sun is rising, time for a ride .. oSo >>

*
___/\___/\___/\___
the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
Last edited by: sausskross: Jul 2, 18 20:01
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Re: New Cannondale SystemSix [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Just figured I'd provide a picture of that bar and routing. Still looks clean to me. I'm seriously contemplating this bike to replace a couple of bikes in my lineup.... if you guys had offered a bike/frame in classic Cannondale Green to match my F-Si the decision would have been very easy :p


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