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Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase
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So I recently posted that I was considering updating my P2 105 to Di2 or buying the new P3 Di2 Ultegra. Needless to say I purchased a new P3. Looking online I saw a price, called the LBS, he came close to matching it and we agreed on a price. It was for the 2019 P3 Ultegra Di2 Rim. He took a deposit and told me he would order the bike and it should be in later that week. During the next week I came in to pick up the bike. He was swapping wheels for me and helping me transfer things over from the P2 to the new P3. While at the shop I noticed that the wheels that come with my new bike are not the spec'ed wheels (spec wheels are mavic elite, he gave me DS Swiss). I asked and he said something like, "oh the bikes come different ways, etc" I didn't care much about the wheels as much and sort of accepted what he told me. Then when I looked it up it turns out that that the DT-Swiss wheels he gave me are spec'ed with the standard Ultegra build (none Di2 version) and the Mavic's are spec'ed with the Di2 build. At any rate, I bring the bike home, (my first Di2) and today started to look into the buttons on the shifter, and much to my surprise I have two buttons on my shifter but the spec says it should have only one button. More research on my part and I realize that my bike was spec'ed with the 8060 shifter (one button) but what I have is the ST-6871 shifter with two buttons. Now I am boiling up, I called the shop owner and asked what the heck is going on with my bike. He went back and forth but essentially it turns out he had an Ultegra build (none Di2) in his shop and he took off parts from another bike and built up the Ultegra he had to Di2. In the process I didn't get the right wheels or shifter. He said he would do what ever I wanted, take the bike back, etc. I said he should have told me what he was doing instead of trying to sneak it by me. He said it is standard for shops to build bikes, ie put them together a certain way but this doesn't feel right. For example, what battery did he use, is it mounted in the correct place or just thrown in some where, and is the whole Di2 assembled as it would have been if it was purchased as a Di2? I do see some signs of "assembly" minor scratches on the extension bars, stem, etc. So, what is a guy to do? Is this okay and should I just get over it? Was the owner deceitful? What would you do?

PS
To make this even more complicated, after my first ride, I leaned my bike against the wall and it fell, leaving a couple of scratches on the derailleur and my pedal, uggg. So taking the bike back may be an issue now that I managed to scratch it on my first day.
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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It wasn't right of the LBS to handle it that way. I've had a shop do several "frankenbuilds" like that for me, and they were always very transparent and up-front about it.

What you do is up to you, though. If the bike is a good value, take it and part ways with the LBS in the future. Or if upset, drop the thing off and get your money.

I wouldn't let an RD/pedal scratch affect that decision.
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [trail] [ In reply to ]
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No, the RD is not affecting my decision. Just pissed off this was done behind my back. Now I don't know what to believe or what I have. Is the battery the latest, I am not even sure how to check the type of derailleur, is it the 8050 or something older. I lost the trust factor.
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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It's a cluster all round and from here then I can't see any happy outcome really. You're going to carry on a nagging thought everytime anything creaks / squeaks on that bike and every dealing with the LBS is likely to leave you suspicious.

Which is a shame, as to be fair a 'custom' build like that is actually potentially a positive, as I would rate the mechanic in the shop where you are going to be physically present to be a fraction more careful than the factory. FWIW then I had something similar happen many years ago, but for a different reason. Specialized EPIC MTB I was after was sold out worldwide. The shop could get the model down, and happened to have the entire groupset someone had taken off an S-works to swap to Shimano. So the frame was the same, but a different colour. Anyway I got what I wanted for a good discount, and 2 months later when the frame cracked I even got the colour I originally should have when they swapped it....

Anyway, now you've dinged it, then I would say that you need to go in with a couple of coffees, sit down with the LBS owner and see what way you can both come out of this respecting each other and balanced. To me would be unfair to leave the scratched bike / mech with the LBS, equally he should have come clean with you about how he was giving you the frame / build you wanted. But don't go in there all guns blazing, that's not going to work for you, as I say, do the whole olive branch thing and that is the surest way to get a positive outcome.

Be reasonable and think outcomes here. What is it you initially wanted, DI2, ok, was a 1 button shifter essential or what you desired, or is it just because you thought you were getting the 1 button that you mentioned it? If it's an issue then can they be swapped? Be clear what you think needs to be done to make you 'happy' and equally be reasonable if something is just 'different' but not material to your bike's performance or your enjoyment of it.
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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Either:
1. Be super nice about it, don’t accuse them of anything, and get your money back. Realizing that you’re probably done with that bike shop.
2. They shouldn’t have done what they did without talking to you, but those are very small things that are never gonna make any difference, and are fixable. Sounds like you worked them over pretty hard on a price and they probably didn’t make any money anyway. You could ask them to adjust those things on the bike.

Having a great relationship with a good shop is worth paying retail for a bike once every four or five years. If you get your money back, do that next time. Whatever money you saved, it’s certainly not worth this kind of stress. But you are right, sounds like a a crappy bike shop or just a shop that made a mistake.
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
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This is really annoying. And to be honest I saw marks/scratches around the crank (they likely needed to take it apart to install the wiring etc. He also told me that he took the Di2 stuff of another bike so now I believe that the entire system (derailleurs and shifters and battery) are the 6800 series instead of the 8050 series. Isn't this going back some years. I am tempted to tell him to either provide me a retro discount of about $1K or, take this bike and give me the one I ordered, or my money back. I am really pissed that it came to this and now this LBS lost my trust. Very frustrated. Still trying to understand the total difference. Don't know how to tell what Der I have either.
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I’d either return it or get a further discount. If you paid with cc you can always dispute the charges because they didn’t sell you what they promised.

Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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I'd definitely take it back and either get my money back or get the bike i'm actually owed. I dont see the point in having a good relationship with a LBS, it's not that hard to work on bikes. Also if they sold you a specific bike for one price, but actually gave you something with a significantly lower spec, how good is that relationship/is that even a relationship you want?
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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Hi,

I think you are worrying about it too much, the shifters you have are better with the two buttons and way more expensive then the one button option. The wheels seem to be about the same spec so not a big issue.

The main thing is you frame warranty is excellent as you have bough the bike new.

The owner could have perhaps talked to you in advance about this "custom build" to help you get the bike locally at the price point you were after, but I don't think there was any genuine harm intended in what he did behind the scenes.

The owner has offered to take it back and get a refund, it might just be best to do that now anyway as you aren't feeling good about the whole situation and a big part of training and racing well is being confident and happy with your equipment.
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have a charger (SM BCR2)? If so, you can plug it into a computer and use the etube software to check what parts are in the system.

Strava
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [Gilliga] [ In reply to ]
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Gilliga wrote:
Hi,

I think you are worrying about it too much, the shifters you have are better with the two buttons and way more expensive then the one button option. The wheels seem to be about the same spec so not a big issue.

The main thing is you frame warranty is excellent as you have bough the bike new.

The owner could have perhaps talked to you in advance about this "custom build" to help you get the bike locally at the price point you were after, but I don't think there was any genuine harm intended in what he did behind the scenes.

The owner has offered to take it back and get a refund, it might just be best to do that now anyway as you aren't feeling good about the whole situation and a big part of training and racing well is being confident and happy with your equipment.

x2 with everything said here.
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I prefer the 2 buttons especially if you are going to use syncroshift. My right is set up for shifting and my left is set up to switch screens on my garmin.
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [DBF] [ In reply to ]
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Actually I didn't work them hard at all. I told him the price I could get it for, he came back with a price 200$ higher and I accepted just to have the LBS support. The original price was online and I preferred to buy from a shop so I accepted.
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [hubcaps] [ In reply to ]
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hubcaps wrote:
I prefer the 2 buttons especially if you are going to use syncroshift. My right is set up for shifting and my left is set up to switch screens on my garmin.

That is awesome the buttons can control your garmin, I didn't know that was an option. Cool set up!
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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TLDR
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
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Duncan74 wrote:
It's a cluster all round and from here then I can't see any happy outcome really. You're going to carry on a nagging thought everytime anything creaks / squeaks on that bike and every dealing with the LBS is likely to leave you suspicious.


Anyway, now you've dinged it, then I would say that you need to go in with a couple of coffees, sit down with the LBS owner and see what way you can both come out of this respecting each other and balanced. To me would be unfair to leave the scratched bike / mech with the LBS, equally he should have come clean with you about how he was giving you the frame / build you wanted. But don't go in there all guns blazing, that's not going to work for you, as I say, do the whole olive branch thing and that is the surest way to get a positive outcome.

Which is a shame, as to be fair a 'custom' build like that is actually potentially a positive, as I would rate the mechanic in the shop where you are going to be physically present to be a fraction more careful than the factory. FWIW then I had something similar happen many years ago, but for a different reason. Specialized EPIC MTB I was after was sold out worldwide. The shop could get the model down, and happened to have the entire groupset someone had taken off an S-works to swap to Shimano. So the frame was the same, but a different colour. Anyway I got what I wanted for a good discount, and 2 months later when the frame cracked I even got the colour I originally should have when they swapped it....
.

Be reasonable and think outcomes here. What is it you initially wanted, DI2, ok, was a 1 button shifter essential or what you desired, or is it just because you thought you were getting the 1 button that you mentioned it? If it's an issue then can they be swapped? Be clear what you think needs to be done to make you 'happy' and equally be reasonable if something is just 'different' but not material to your bike's performance or your enjoyment of it.



Initially I didn't know there was a difference between 1 or 2 buttons. I trusted that I got what I ordered and that's that. The only difference it made was that it made me aware that I didn't get what I ordered, ie revealed that my bike was upgraded by the shop. Frankly if he would have told me that up front I wouldn't have accepted it, unless it was discounted somehow. I did notice, like I said less then crafty workmanship with some scoffs or scratches around the crank, stem and extension bars. He did say that the 2 buttons are better because you can shift both Der, not sure exactly, we had a poor phone connection.
Last edited by: avikoren1: May 11, 20 18:13
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [Gilliga] [ In reply to ]
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Learned it from shane miller. you can do it with wahoo computers too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTFK7C5fCKU
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
I'd definitely take it back and either get my money back or get the bike i'm actually owed. I dont see the point in having a good relationship with a LBS, it's not that hard to work on bikes. Also if they sold you a specific bike for one price, but actually gave you something with a significantly lower spec, how good is that relationship/is that even a relationship you want?

I agree. Having built 2 bikes up from the frame up, I see very little value in the LBS - perhaps with the only exception being something like custom wheels. But it's not like I'll ever need a custom wheelset built.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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alex_korr wrote:
imswimmer328 wrote:
I'd definitely take it back and either get my money back or get the bike i'm actually owed. I dont see the point in having a good relationship with a LBS, it's not that hard to work on bikes. Also if they sold you a specific bike for one price, but actually gave you something with a significantly lower spec, how good is that relationship/is that even a relationship you want?


I agree. Having built 2 bikes up from the frame up, I see very little value in the LBS - perhaps with the only exception being something like custom wheels. But it's not like I'll ever need a custom wheelset built.

I've done a lot of bike building, and even enjoy it. Indeed I even used to do wheels too - in that case it was because when commuting I couldn't be without a wheel for the week it would take to book it in, get it fixed and back, so I used to have spare spokes and do it myself on the night they broke (note that I was doing a long distance commute 5 days a week with panniers on potholed roads - was just a fact of life).

But for me the LBS 'value' is by stocking things when I need them. And for the knowledge in areas i may not have. Even more so in clothing (including helmets, shoes) where there is no substitute for trying on. I'm fortunate that my sensitivity to price is a lot less than it used to be. And I am happier to let them deal with bleeding disk brakes and if I was ever to go DI2 then figuring out the mysteries of the many junction boxes. It's a bit like car engines. I used to do a lot of my own mechanical work, and then as technology has moved on, and as my time has become more precious I'm more likely to use the garage than do myself. Ironically I spent 5 hours on saturday virtually stripping down my ride on mower in order to replace an idler pulley that had seized, and yet I will be dropping my road bike into the shop for them to give an 'annual service'. In part to give them some $ as they are struggling after the NZ lockdown, and in part to continue the relationship. At Xmas then I was able to suggest that my wife went into the shop, and asked the manager there what I'd want from santa.... Partly as the relationship is there, partly as I know there would be absolutely no issue with taking whatever back to swap over.

But a lot of this depends on the LBS. There are many types. Indeed I got my road bike from a local shop that sells bikes, a chain and there is no way on earth I could have built that with those compnents anywhere near the price with frame and components (Cannondale Synapse). However, I'd never take the bike to that place to get it serviced as the mechanics don't have the skills/knowledge/experience to work on this type of bike, they are more used / suited to working on the <$1000 MTB and $2000 ebikes that old ladies use to terrorize joggers on footpaths
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry man it stinks that you bought your dream bike and found out it deviates from the Cervelo specs. As folks have pointed out it probably won’t diminish the effectiveness of the bike but I’m with you - when I buy something new and that expensive I want to know that it has everything it was spec’ed to have from day one and then I can decide what to upgrade or swap out. I bought the very same bike last Aug - 2019 P3 Di2. It came with a USB battery charger that you can use to connect to E-Tube software and it’ll indicate the versions of all the di2 components. I like the advice you were given to sit down with the LBS and work it out amicably. Try diplomacy first. There is no question they should have disclosed the differences from spec. Cervelo sold the entire inventory of that model - I know because I tried to order one and couldn’t and instead had to find a shop with one available. The mechanical ultegra P3’s were easier to find and one shop offered to do the same thing - retrofit with di2. I fortunately found one at another multi sport dealer so I didn’t have to go that route. Best of luck and let’s us know how it turns out.
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [gmh39] [ In reply to ]
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gmh39 wrote:
Do you have a charger (SM BCR2)? If so, you can plug it into a computer and use the etube software to check what parts are in the system.

I did that. the only difference is the shifter. so now it just comes down to doing this behind my back and is the build quality less then right from cervelo. i don't know what to do but the question i keep asking myself is if he would have told me what he intend to do, would i have accepted it and the answer is no, not without a significant discount. the fact is that i contemplated upgrading my p2 to di2 but instead of having it "slapped" together i opted to buy new with all di2 done by the oem. now i got a p3 that was "slapped" together.
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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"so now I believe that the entire system (derailleurs and shifters and battery) are the 6800 series instead of the 8050 series"


Why do you think that?

Have you looked at the components on the bike?
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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I doubt there are any major build quality issues. Overall it's really just not that hard to change over electronic components. At the very least I'd never go to that shop again, maybe post a review on what they did. Without a question it's a very unethical business practice
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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People are being very forgiving. I wouldn't be.

1) He took your money and gave you something other than what you agreed to.
2) He didn't disclose where he was providing you with something other than what you both agreed on.
3) When challenged about the wheels, he lied straight to your face about it - "oh the bike comes in different ways".

I'd be livid and he wouldn't get a penny out of me*. Notwithstanding whatever damage I caused when it was in my possession.

* the only caveat I have is; how specific were you with them about your expectations for what you were buying? In my industry we don't buy anything complicated without agreeing on a SoW - a Statement of Work. A set of deliverables or, in simpler terms, what do I get for my money? Probably a lesson to be learned here.
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Re: Need some opinion regarding ethics of my LBS with my new P3 Di2 purchase [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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“I did that. the only difference is the shifter. so now it just comes down to doing this behind my back and is the build quality less then right from cervelo. i don't know what to do but the question i keep asking myself is if he would have told me what he intend to do, would i have accepted it and the answer is no, not without a significant discount. the fact is that i contemplated upgrading my p2 to di2 but instead of having it "slapped" together i opted to buy new with all di2 done by the oem. now i got a p3 that was "slapped" together.[/quote]


What do you mean built oem? Most new bikes show up at the shop as a frame with some parts attached and a box of parts, the shop does the final build. Any good shop would likely check a lot of the work done in the taiwan factory and check all the work anyways.

I would trust the build of the mechanic at my LBS over the factory in Taiwan.

My buddy got a canyon recently direct and we had to finish the build at home it was mostly done for us but still ended up being a few guys in a shed doing the work, Canyon is one of the best at sending bike out nearly done from Germany. Ive known other mates to get a great deal new online and it shows up needing bonding compound to attach headsets and significant build done, then they end up ponying up 100-200 bucks at the LBS to get it done anyway.
Last edited by: Gilliga: May 12, 20 2:14
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