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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:
Everyday I come across a situation or a conversation that has me thinking I should have been a lawyer :)

you and i both, Rodney.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [fisherman76] [ In reply to ]
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All right, fair warning, I am an IP attorney and work with patents and trademarks for a living.

In a prior firm, I worked with a health care client that was very active in protecting their R&D work by patent and trademark. In doing so, they were not trying to keep everyone from using the methodologies or the terminology. They, like TP it sounds like, wanted to make sure that everyone used them consistently, so that data derived from one facility might be compared directly to data from another facility. By increasing the number of people using the methods and terms, the base of results that might be used for analysis and further improvement to the health care industry.

I am speculating here but TP might be doing the same thing here. The more people use the methods of computation and the terms that refer to these methods, the greater the mass of data available that is generally consistent so that we can then use this mass of data to refine and improve the measurements and the quality of the analysis that we do based on these measurements to predict future performance and refine training methodologies.

For TP, the more people who use the terms and formulas, the greater the level of education in the pool of potential customers for their services. They do not have to convince these potential customers that these are the right formulas, only that TP offers the best pay service and the best tools for compiling and analyzing the data. TP was already noted as having proprietary data polling and harmonization tools and I would guess the argument is that TO is able to more accurately determine the work done because our tools are better, even if others are applying the same formulas. And since TP offers the best tools for gathering computing, that TP may also be the best pay service to go to for training advice.

Anyhow, long way of saying this is not an unheardof approach and it is one that makes a lot of sense from a strategic marketing point of view.

Alan Stewart
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [WIAlan] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the well informed view. Question then, what recourse would your client have should someone use a trademarked term
1) without expressed permission but,
2) with proper attribution and,
3) using the proper underlying methods.

In other words, is doing what the original posted proposed sufficient, or could it be the target of some sort of legal action?

I recognize I am not securing legal advice per se, and I would hope others would understand this would just be your opinion and not to be confused with anything else.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [fisherman76] [ In reply to ]
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fisherman76 wrote:
Thanks for the well informed view. Question then, what recourse would your client have should someone use a trademarked term
1) without expressed permission but,
2) with proper attribution and,
3) using the proper underlying methods.

In other words, is doing what the original posted proposed sufficient, or could it be the target of some sort of legal action?

I recognize I am not securing legal advice per se, and I would hope others would understand this would just be your opinion and not to be confused with anything else.

So you got Gear's reply this morning? Here's another way of thinking; Strava (who just acquired $18.5 million in VC funding) and Garmin thought it best to create their own terms. In other words is it worth the headache?

I am not a lawyer, I am not speaking for TP or Strava or Garmin or anyone. I am batting .500 when it comes to helping people get permission though ;) I wish I could have helped more.


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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Garmin created their own terms? Is this new?
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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I should clarify. They use TSS/NP/IF for cycling but they don't use the run, swim, HR based versions (rTSS, hrTSS, sTSS).


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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Ah got you. Thanks.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [ In reply to ]
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thank goodness i've found a way to make my training, simplified.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:

So you got Gear's reply this morning? Here's another way of thinking; Strava (who just acquired $18.5 million in VC funding) and Garmin thought it best to create their own terms. In other words is it worth the headache?

I am not a lawyer, I am not speaking for TP or Strava or Garmin or anyone. I am batting .500 when it comes to helping people get permission though ;) I wish I could have helped more.


Wow, very Renfield of you. Actually, I wrote what I did above *before* you ran off and asked Gear to respond, as I was assuming I wouldn't hear from him. Yes, he did respond yesterday, but it's very much irrelevant, I'm just curious at this point. If you think Strava secured extra funding to go to battle with Peaksware so they could use their terms, that's...unfortunate. Again, the math isn't legally protected and can't be. I do appreciate your time in connecting me with Peaksware in the first place.
Strava calls NP Weighted Average Power (which makes more sense anyway), TSS Training Load (again, easy to understand) and IF Intensity. There's no reason anyone else ought not to do the same. If they were my trademarks, I'd *demand* that NP, TSS, and IF were used - I'd get free advertising on my competitor's product. As a friend pointed out recently, these terms are not science, they are merely ways to try (TRY! It's NOT SCIENCE) and approximate how much work is being done cycling and gauge recovery/progress. By using those terms, one endorses them as being more reliable than any alternative. By not using them, one inadvertently casts aspersions on them.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:
I should clarify. They use TSS/NP/IF for cycling but they don't use the run, swim, HR based versions (rTSS, hrTSS, sTSS).

Is that because they are meaningless metrics? much more so that TSS even.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [fisherman76] [ In reply to ]
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No we were chatting about another thing earlier in the day and he said he forgot to get back to you, I assumed at that point he did.


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [ddave] [ In reply to ]
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That's a conversation between you and people much smarter than I am :)


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [ddave] [ In reply to ]
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ddave wrote:
rbuike wrote:
I should clarify. They use TSS/NP/IF for cycling but they don't use the run, swim, HR based versions (rTSS, hrTSS, sTSS).


Is that because they are meaningless metrics? much more so that TSS even.

winner winner chicken dinner
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
MaximumTrainer wrote:
Thanks Mr Coggan! I will make sure to put a link to Peaksware in that case.


You should probably check w/ an attorney to see whether that is sufficient. My understatinding is that TP has gotten far more pro-active in defending their IP rights.
I'm not an attorney and will say that people can sue or object to anything.


That said, the purpose of trademark law is to avoid confusion in the marketplace. If you're writing about something and the consumer/reader could be confused about the source of the terms, or where to obtain the products/services those terms describe -- and particularly thinks you might be the place to go - then there is a problem.


If you're using the terms in a way that is clear that were consumers/readers can go to get the products/services those terms describe, then there is no real problem. Though again, TP could object anyway.


http://www.jt10000.com/
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