i'm not saying anything at all about high or low rpm in and of itself. I'm talking about making more power with shorter cranks at a lower rpm than you were on the longer cranks, at the same perceived effort level.

To do that you will have to be putting a good deal more force on the pedals.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Just giving status updates. Not at all saying I understand this stuff. But, am finally on a journey with nothing to lose, and there will data to support what changes I make.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Sounds likely that he is testing in erg mode and isn't really getting the numbers he thinks he's getting. Not understanding what your testing is garbage in = garbage out.

Even better...his "technical advisor" in all of this is apparently Frank Day :-/

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Are you keeping track of your time on this project? I'm curious how you value your time. Unwilling to spend $250 for a fit but will to put in scores of hours on here and presumably on your bike and outside of ST. I'm actually being serious with my question.

I seriously do not believe that a FIT is an answer with numbers, which I know everyone else does not agree with. But, for the right person at the right time.
I will be fitted by Dan when he is in Rocklin the first of next year, for free, just like all the others he and Ian do for the road show. Is this not good enough?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, I am honored that Frank is spending so much time with me to be a Ginnie pig for his beliefs. This is a hobby, I have nothing to lose and who knows either he can prove it was right, or I can say he was wrong.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

That is obvious. Actaully, no its not. Why are you being fit by Dan if it is not an answer?

And, do you have an answer to my original question?

Dan is NOT the answer. He is another data point. No person can ever give another "the answer". It will be Dan's opinion. His experience.
BUT, it is NOT black and white 100% the only way.

I would love to get a dozen fitters and have then all fit me. I know there is NO way they would all give the same answer. I have talked to enough folks who have paid for multiple fits over time, and guess what, they were all different.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Understood. Tinkering is always necessary. But tinkering and then getting a fit seems a little backasswards. You still didn't answer my original question. Carry on.

You still don't understand anything about this process. What do you think 'the answer' would look like? A fitter will look at you and your personal limitations and give you an option that should work for you based on their fit system/past experience. The fact that no one can tell you an exact seat height formula or seat setback, doesn't mean there is no point to a fit, it means that every person is unique. A fitter will be light years ahead of any fit you can arrive at by tinkering on your own. This is especially true since you don't understand the process of testing or anything about bike fitting.

...and you wonder why you go around so confused about all this stuff all of the time :-/

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Nope, not keeping track of my time. You have your opinion of what is value. Not an issue. But I have my opinion with my hobby of what make its fun.
Why folks spend so much time attacking others is just, well, ....

I started this thread knowing what the "experts" of ST would do. But I know there are folks who enjoy seeing data as to what others are doing. They just tell me they would never ever post on ST because of all the personal attacks.

Oh well, I will keep working with Frank. Will see what happens down the road. And I continue to say, when all these experts can show there results put them to the top of the rankings, great, then I will listen more to their opinions.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Right we all have a different value so I was asking about yours. This is not about me. I know my answer. It's about you. You started this process saying that you didn't want to spend $250 for a fit because that was too much money so I was just wondering how you value your time. I'm not attacking you, simply asking a question about the process you are undergoing.

There we go, h2ofun demonstrating what a true idiot is with his continued refrain of "I'm sorta fast, so everyone elses opinion is meaningless until they all beat me".

Any data you post is meaningless since you don't understand anything you are talking about, you can't communicate effectively in the English language, you finish most of your 'statements' with a ..., and you would rather be a contrarian that does everything different so that you can take up the position of being a victim. But, kudos for having so many threads about you lately. Too bad it hasn't stopped making every other thread you post in also about you.

I continue to test and collect data on my crank length vs HR. Will take lots of data to see if there is a real trend, but off season is the right time to try some new stuff.
First time I have tried 170 cranks. I could if I want go all the way to 140mm with my powercranks. Will see. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The formatting of that spreadsheet is 100% unintelligible to me. I have no idea what the test protocol or conditions are during those tests. Most of the numbers are heart rate? But some columns are labeled as done at a certain power. Some as a certain rpm. Some have time labels but some don't. Watts are labelled in different rows and in seemingly random columns.... One date row has no date label but still has data in it. What does that mean? Then six rows below the data there is a cell that says format HR - rpm - watts but I do not see any set of data with numbers that could correspond to those metrics in that order.

What does distance mean if you are riding in erg mode at a set power for a set amount of time?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

All the testing is done in Erg mode, 200 watts, 50/16 gear.

But, I start out with a warmup, 160 watts to 300, 1 minute steps for 15 minutes. Then 5 minutes at 150 watts. Then I do 10 minute spins at a target RPM.
i started at the high end but had a heck of a time holding, if at all. So lately I have been testing at 80 to 40 RPM's. I then spin at 120 watts for a cool down,
targeting 70 rpm.

I started at 200mm cranks, then 175's. Did a pass at 170 this morning. I can go as low at 140mm cranks with the powercranks I have.

Yea, I forgot to put the dates on 2 tests.

And at the moment, I am not doing a power test, which I have done and will do, but right now we are collecting HR vs crank length as the single variable.

I have 3 friends driving up to my place bright and early tomorrow. The all want to try some different power testing with different crank lengths and adjustments
to the velotron adjustable bike. Shall be a long day but will be interesting to see what these 3, very top athletes, think since they have never had the chance to try different crank lengths, and have the power number be displayed right in front of them.

I am just recording the distance it says I traveled based on however the coaching sw is working.

So, did I answer your questions as to what I am doing?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

OK so column B is heart rate during a 15 minute effort in which you start at 160W and ramp up to 300W? When do you take your heart rate? Do you ramp up the power at exactly the same rate every time?


Column C is 20 minutes at 120W? Or is that the remaining 5 minutes (getting total time to 20 minutes) at 150W?


Are the rest of the columns (D through N) 10 minutes at the listed rpm? At what point in the interval do you take your heart rate, or is it average?


What does 200 Watts in column H mean?


This is all done in erg mode?


Is "distance" the total distance your velotron says you went, starting with the ramp up all the way through the 10 minute intervals and the cooldown?


Each time you changed your crank length, did you also change your seat position? If so, how did you calculate the required change in seat position?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

No, it is IMPOSSIBLE to hold the exact same cadence, period. I just try to stay as close as I can.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

But who knows what rpm's he's holding during the warmup and cooldown, or if he is ramping power up and down at exactly the same rate? The distance measurement could differ because of that, but it is a useless metric in erg mode anyway, except perhaps as a check on how well he followed his protocol if he does warmup and cooldown exactly the same way every time.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Well, HR varies by as much as 30% under the supposedly identical conditions, so the variance is a lot larger than the signal. So even though there does appear to be a trend, I am not sure you can say that it actually means anything.

I wonder how good the Velotron is at keeping power the same at 85 rpm vs. 40 rpm?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

The HR's recorded is what is at the end of the period, even though I look at the trend.

So column B is the final around what the HR is are the 15 minutes of ramp.
I do the exact same warm up before each test. Start at 160 watts, 10 watts up per minute, last minute is 300 watts. I then take what has been what the HR
has been sitting at the 15 minute point. It takes like 10 minutes before the darn HR strap even starts to measure. :(

I agree my spreadsheet is not very good. I keep changing to try and make better. I had it, until this morning, with time at the top, and RPMs in the results.
I changed since I had different RPM's and thought it might be easier to read that way, but.

So, column B is after 15 minutes. Column C is after 20 minutes from start, which is 5 minutes of, and it should say I think 150 watts, got to fix that after looking at my file again, what the HR was at the end of 20 minutes from the start.

The rest are 10 minute efforts at the RPM listed. You can see for different days, I was testing at different RPM levels. We are now doing 80-40 rpm.
I again take the HR at the end of the 10 minute period, using where it had been sitting for like the last minute.

I updated the spreadsheet. Does it read any better. I put the watts per each time area.

Yep, erg mode

Yep, distance I recorded was total for the time. The first ones were 70 minutes. The latest are 80 minute efforts.

Each time I changed the cranks, I changed the seat. So this morning changed from 175 to 170, and raised the seat 5. Did a quick check and
shoe heal on pedal top with leg fully extended.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep