My experience with flip turns vs open

Jan 9, 09 12:58

Post #1 of 16 (6081 views)

Flip vs. open discussion tend to focus on things like streamlining, looking cool, etc.

I started flip-turns about 6 weeks ago (started swimming with a Masters group a few months ago). Immediately I noticed it was difficult to hit my old splits, as I'd be screaming for air by the time I surfaced off the wall and by the time I'd catch my breath I was holding it for the next turn (25y pool). I'm a bit surprised that an extra breath off the wall makes that much difference, but there it is. This added discomfort is still there, but I'm seeing a bit of improvement.

Anyway, I was concerned that my race times will suffer since I'm effectively swimming a slower pace for anything greater than a 100. However, a week or so ago I did a 2100y test. Surprisingly, it was ~3min faster than my HIM time from last fall. (I typically swim the HIM split within a minute of my pool time.)

Any thoughts from the swim gurus? My strategy for swim training since I joined the Masters group is to just do what I'm told and it seems to be working. Am I better off swimming harder efforts with open turns and doing drills/recovery/steady efforts with flips to work on adaptation? Is it a good thing that I'm limited by how much I can suffer holding my breath on the turn, or am I hurting my training by limiting my pace?

----------------------------------------------------
Note to self: increase training load.

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [00] [ In reply to ]

Jan 9, 09 13:17

Post #2 of 16 (6048 views)

Holy crap!!! It's January!!! You only have months left of training to adapt to what actual swimmers do in the pool and maybe actually improve your swim by swimming with faster people!!! Stop it right now! You'll never get anywhere if you leave things like this to the last minute.

-------------------------------
Ignorance is bliss until they take your bliss away.

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [00] [ In reply to ]

Jan 9, 09 14:05

Post #3 of 16 (5983 views)

Stick with it and keep flipping. In the short term, you can turn and pop back to the surface sooner (less time streamlining) and that will help...but I think the main reason that you are suffering so much is that you probably use a TON of oxygen during your flip turn. Since it's still new you are probably tensing and using so much more muscle than is necessary.
When you can flip-turn in your sleep you will use less oxygen, therefore suffer less.

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [jyeager] [ In reply to ]

Jan 9, 09 14:21

Post #4 of 16 (5955 views)

My swim sucks vs. my bike and run, so I made myself 2 promises this year:
1) No more open turns ever - flip turns only
2) Never swim slower than 1:30 per 100 (really a struggle for me).

In past years I've struggled through workouts at 1:45-2:05 per 100 (depending on length), and have not seen much improvement. This year I'm attacking it the opposite way. Short intervals with LOTS of rest between then initially, and never allow myself to swim more slowly than 1:30 / 100 again. Over just 3 weeks, the needed rest intervals have come down (from 30 seconds to maintain that pace to 15-20 seconds to maintain that pace), and I can swim 75's and some 100's at that pace now (started with just 50's). That may still be slow, but it's still 10-15s per 100 faster than I could swim last year. And.....I'm finally feeling more comfortable in the water (as a result of getting the flip turns down), and don't dread swimmimg anymore.

I have intentionally avoided Masters, since I wanted to become more comfortable after applying this kind of training for 4-6 weeks, and allowed myself to get a bit faster. After that, I'll feel more comfortable and start a Master program.

OK, off to the pool now.

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [00] [ In reply to ]

Jan 9, 09 14:28

Post #5 of 16 (5936 views)

Keep at the flip turns, you'll get used to them. Once you can do them well open turns will never be faster than your flip turns. Furthermore you'll get used to the little teensy weensy bit of oxygen deprivation ("little teensy weensy" is my nice way of saying SUCK IT UP) and pretty soon you'll be able to not breathe on the stroke before or after the turn.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]

Jan 9, 09 15:01

Post #6 of 16 (5893 views)

Then you can add in 2-3 whopper dolphin kicks like Phelps!!

I started adding those in this year after watching the Olympics...I think it is even farther from Tri specifics
than flip turns (how much time do you really spend underwater) , but it has picked up my split times and
helps me feel more 'pro' in the water.

" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [TriDevilDog] [ In reply to ]

Jan 9, 09 15:03

Post #7 of 16 (5889 views)

I've forgotten how to do anything but dolphin kicks off my turns.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [00] [ In reply to ]

Jan 9, 09 15:12

Post #8 of 16 (5869 views)

It's hard and slow because you suck at flipturns. As you get better (with practice), so will your times.

<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [00] [ In reply to ]

Jan 9, 09 15:34

Post #9 of 16 (5843 views)

Just keep flipping. Flip turns save you around 1/2 body length per pool length compared to the open turn. When executed well, the flip turn and push off from the wall will be the fastest you will be going. If you're pool time & open water swim time are within a minute of one another, something is off with your pool time. You should be faster in the pool, even with a wet suit in open water.

#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]

Jan 9, 09 19:47

Post #10 of 16 (5704 views)

I started doing a dolphin kick last week and noticed I was well beyond the flags but don't know if it has translated into time savings/effort cost yet.

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [00] [ In reply to ]

Jan 31, 09 8:00

Post #11 of 16 (5520 views)

Quote:

I started flip-turns about 6 weeks ago (started swimming with a Masters group a few months ago). Immediately I noticed it was difficult to hit my old splits, as I'd be screaming for air by the time I surfaced off the wall and by the time I'd catch my breath I was holding it for the next turn (25y pool).

Update...

For some reason, this started to come together suddenly this week (end of Jan). Late this week I was very close to my pre-flip-turn splits without significant discomfort. That's roughly 9 weeks after starting flip turns (4x a week, ~10k y / week). I think the small difference remaining is due just to the mental agony I went through the past couple months, not wanting to endure much more pain than that. Over an 1800 y main set, I actually improved by 5 sec/100 rather than slowing 3-5 sec/100.

----------------------------------------------------
Note to self: increase training load.

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [00] [ In reply to ]

Jan 31, 09 8:24

Post #12 of 16 (5490 views)

My new years resolution last year was to get the flip turns down and again this year as well. I have really dedicated myself to flip turns recently and I think I am in better swimming shape because of having to focus on the breathing in the turn. I struggle with flipping straight over...I tend to go crooked. I think flip turns are an excellent way to ignore people at the wall who might want to talk or whatever. Flipturns also send the message: I am probably doing a swim workout not putzing in the water!

The other evening while at the pool a guy joined my lane (I call him Aparatus Man) I was in the middle of a 800 straight swim and he went screaming past me, arms turning over like a windmill, kicking like mad and did something like a flipturn at the wall (made my flipturns look good!), went back to the other end of the pool and immediately put on long fins. I call him A. M. because he never just swims....he always swims with either long fins, zoomers, a buoy, paddles or some other combination of swim stuff.....I know he does triathlons because he told me he did.....

Happy Swimming.

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [Kat_Kong] [ In reply to ]

Jan 31, 09 8:45

Post #13 of 16 (5463 views)

In Reply To:

My new years resolution last year was to get the flip turns down and again this year as well. I have really dedicated myself to flip turns recently and I think I am in better swimming shape because of having to focus on the breathing in the turn. I struggle with flipping straight over...I tend to go crooked. I think flip turns are an excellent way to ignore people at the wall who might want to talk or whatever. Flipturns also send the message: I am probably doing a swim workout not putzing in the water!

The other evening while at the pool a guy joined my lane (I call him Aparatus Man) I was in the middle of a 800 straight swim and he went screaming past me, arms turning over like a windmill, kicking like mad and did something like a flipturn at the wall (made my flipturns look good!), went back to the other end of the pool and immediately put on long fins. I call him A. M. because he never just swims....he always swims with either long fins, zoomers, a buoy, paddles or some other combination of swim stuff.....I know he does triathlons because he told me he did.....

Happy Swimming.

That was ME! ;-)

.

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [00] [ In reply to ]

Jan 31, 09 8:56

Post #14 of 16 (5445 views)

I know that people will debate this, but you screaming for air is actually some form of hypoxic training, which may have also worked for you to break through a cealing in your training.

Wait until you get into the "washing machine" in a mass start. Being comfi even with limited air and able to recover from it will pay off.

___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [00] [ In reply to ]

Feb 1, 09 13:56

Post #15 of 16 (5294 views)

my own tale, as a bit of cautionary advice & impetus to keep on keeping on with your flips:

I was an open turn swimmer forever. I'd flip in meets, but only in meets, and that continued thru college (D3, where nobody cares). fast forward to my multisport years...as a good little cheesehead I decide to join in the fun of the inaugural IM-Moo, and spend some 15mo working up to my first IM including more free yardage (in a 25yd pool) than I'd ever done in my life. with a month to go the pain in my right shoulder was so bad that I finally had to go to a doctor. the diagnosis: rotator cuff tendonitis, a repetitive stress injury. caused by: my open turns. I WORKed my open turns, and I always grabbed and pushed off with my right arm.

I couldn't run more than a couple miles without pain in my shoulder. couldn't ride more than about 30 in the aero position for the same reason. POOF goes IM-Moo. DNS.

after the recovery, I never missed a flip. ever. some issues from the tendonitis never quite disappeared entirely, but at least I only aggravate it now outside of training.

keep up the good work. it's worth it.

Carl

Carl Matson

Re: My experience with flip turns vs open [SatMark] [ In reply to ]

Feb 1, 09 15:02

Post #16 of 16 (5255 views)

2) Never swim slower than 1:30 per 100 (really a struggle for me).

I thought I was a barge, but if 1:30/100 is slow, then I'm an anchor!

http://noel-ironman.blogspot.com/

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