Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke????

Jul 25, 18 15:29

Post #1 of 58 (8080 views)

Curious to know what some of the aero experts' thoughts are for comparing the following front wheels for being the "fastest", "most aero"??
Parameters=
1. dont care about tubes or tires or widths, only the aspect of the wheel design itself
2. dont care about weight of the wheel
3. typical range of yaw angles found, say for a HIM and an IM
4. ride length of a HIM and an IM

WHEELS=

Zipp 1080
vs.
HED GT3
vs.
M5 2-spoke (see latest ST cover photo)
vs.
Zipp 808 (FC or non-FC, either way)
vs.
Xentis Mark 4tt or Mark 5tt
vs.
Zipp 404 (FC or non-FC, either way)

Curious because I saw a graph that said the 1080 was faster than a HED3 (but only at certain yaw). Then saw a graph that said 808FC was fastest of all, and so on, and so on, ....

Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice

Last edited by: Taugen: Jul 25, 18 19:13

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]

Jul 25, 18 17:30

Post #2 of 58 (7994 views)

The two spoke wheel tests the fastest from what I've seen. As a mechanical engineer, I would tell you to stay away from it though. If you want to know why, just draw a force diagram of the wheel at a few different orientations... you'll see why. Aside from that, the deeper wheel is virtually always going to be faster if you can handle it.

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]

Jul 25, 18 17:57

Post #3 of 58 (7971 views)

I have multiple depth Hed wheels but generally ride the GT3. I would be putting on your list the Pro tri spoke as well considering how much it is used in the pro peloton and race stage wins it is racking up.

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [jmjtri] [ In reply to ]

Jul 25, 18 19:07

Post #4 of 58 (7906 views)

jmjtri wrote:

The two spoke wheel tests the fastest from what I've seen. As a mechanical engineer, I would tell you to stay away from it though. If you want to know why, just draw a force diagram of the wheel at a few different orientations... you'll see why. Aside from that, the deeper wheel is virtually always going to be faster if you can handle it.

I had a strong feeling that the M3 2-spoke wheel would "on paper" be the fastest. I don't disagree with you on the down force load concern. But, I would hope that the company did some research and testing with this in mind. I know that if you hit a bump or curb while the wheel is at certain rotation, there is a greater chance of exceeding the load capacity. Again, I just hope the company took this into consideration.

What are your thoughts on the aero shape of the blades and leading edges of the blades, and the edge line closest to the hub? Would you prefer different airfoil shapes?

Thanks for the input.

Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]

Jul 25, 18 19:11

Post #5 of 58 (7898 views)

Shambolic wrote:

I have multiple depth Hed wheels but generally ride the GT3. I would be putting on your list the Pro tri spoke as well considering how much it is used in the pro peloton and race stage wins it is racking up.

I have had a HED 3c years ago, and felt it was fast. However I wasn't impressed with the quality of the wheel. I like the Pro 3 spoke wheel, so it too could go on the possible fastest wheel list.

Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]

Jul 25, 18 19:14

Post #6 of 58 (7887 views)

AOX 100 from AeroCoach is supposed to be pretty darn fast and it is designed for the TLR 23. Probably one of the better CdA/Crr combos out there. Other choices would be the Enve 7.8. HED 3+ with a Conti SS 20 looks scary fast and might be really good on a wide fork bike like the Speed Concept. Jet 9+ is also pretty fast with the TLR or Super Sonic regardless of frame.

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]

Jul 25, 18 19:35

Post #7 of 58 (7856 views)

enve 7.8 for me.

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]

Jul 25, 18 20:46

Post #8 of 58 (7797 views)

You cannot separate this question from tire selection. You might not be able to separate it from frame selection depending on how precise you want to be.

That said, my money is on an H3+ with a narrow tire such as the Attack or 20mm SS.

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 0:47

Post #9 of 58 (7665 views)

grumpier.mike wrote:

AOX 100 from AeroCoach is supposed to be pretty darn fast and it is designed for the TLR 23. Probably one of the better CdA/Crr combos out there.

Just be warned that due to the construction of that wheel (aluminium rim with plastic rim covers which create the 100mm deepness), and the tightness of Corsa TLR sidewalls, which obviously creates a compression effect on the rim (not surprising actually, it has been observed with other shallow wheels and tight road tubeless tires as well), the plastic sidewalls of the wheel might bulge out to the point that it renders the wheel unusable.

When you mount a less tight tire (Turbo Cotton, for instance), you can ride just fine, I've already raced a couple of short TTs with that setup.

Aerocoach themselves didn't offer any solution to this.

----------------------------
Need more W/CdA.

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 1:50

Post #10 of 58 (7631 views)

When Zipp discontinued the 1080 they released some data comparing the 1080 to the then new 808 FC. According to Zipp the new rim firecrest rim profile was a significant improvement but could not be executed in the 1080 depth because the rim would have been enormously wide and wouldn't have fit into most bikes. This was of course before anyone was promoting really wide rims and bike manufactures limited frame clearance to narrow rims. In the modern era of discs I wonder if Zipp could revisit the 1080 but I digress. Overall the claim was that because of its toroidal profile the 808FC was faster than the 1080 so the 1080 was killed off.

I have seen graphs which show the 1080 as still being the fastest front wheel but my guess is this is very bike and tire dependent.

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [mrlobber] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 2:16

Post #11 of 58 (7610 views)

Yes, also AeroCoach seemed to be having some supply chain issues. Ordered an AEOX disc wheel for mid April delivery and they sent an email informing me that it would be delayed by a month...A month went by and still no further news so after several attempts managed to get an answer that it would be delayed by two weeks. Then was told it would be two weeks more. then by the end of June (two weeks out from ITU world champs) I had to pull the plug. Went with a HED jet and super happy with that.

On the positive side, they were quick with handling my refund.

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [msrixon] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 4:57

Post #12 of 58 (7474 views)

Where do FLO wheels land in fastest front wheels?

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 5:26

Post #13 of 58 (7431 views)

Taugen wrote:

jmjtri wrote:

The two spoke wheel tests the fastest from what I've seen. As a mechanical engineer, I would tell you to stay away from it though. If you want to know why, just draw a force diagram of the wheel at a few different orientations... you'll see why. Aside from that, the deeper wheel is virtually always going to be faster if you can handle it.

I had a strong feeling that the M3 2-spoke wheel would "on paper" be the fastest. I don't disagree with you on the down force load concern. But, I would hope that the company did some research and testing with this in mind. I know that if you hit a bump or curb while the wheel is at certain rotation, there is a greater chance of exceeding the load capacity. Again, I just hope the company took this into consideration.

What are your thoughts on the aero shape of the blades and leading edges of the blades, and the edge line closest to the hub? Would you prefer different airfoil shapes?

Thanks for the input.

Thanks an interesting question. We know the exact velocity difference between different points of the spoke/blade relative to other parts, but I think that if you wanted to tune the width and shape you'd need to do fluid flow analysis.

On a side note, I always think it's funny when people always mention the wind tunnel when it comes to testing bikes and wheels without a rider. Fluid flow analysis via Solidworks or ANSYS is always going to be more accurate. (And cheaper)

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 5:35

Post #14 of 58 (7419 views)

Why isn't the Roval CLX64 on the list?

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 5:39

Post #15 of 58 (7408 views)

Check out all the wheel data on Aeroweenie: http://aeroweenie.com/data.html

Here is one chart from that site:

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [jmjtri] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 5:45

Post #16 of 58 (7396 views)

When you say fluid flow I assume you mean computational fluid dynamics? Solidworks is definitely not something I would use for that!! Ansys, sure, but $$$$$. Or OpenFOAM, which is free, is what I use!

I wouldn't go so far as to say cfd will always be more accurate than wind tunnel testing. The models are approximations so there are errors, just like there are measurement and fixturing errors in a tunnel. But it is a great tool to reduce the number of hardware iterations and tunnel time by a whole lot.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [jmjtri] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 5:46

Post #17 of 58 (7396 views)

1) how would you model it?

2) testing without a rider is useless, it completely changes the flow

3) solidworks has a great CAD program. Their simulation tools are not so good

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [jmjtri] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 6:50

Post #18 of 58 (7312 views)

jmjtri wrote:

Taugen wrote:

jmjtri wrote:

The two spoke wheel tests the fastest from what I've seen. As a mechanical engineer, I would tell you to stay away from it though. If you want to know why, just draw a force diagram of the wheel at a few different orientations... you'll see why. Aside from that, the deeper wheel is virtually always going to be faster if you can handle it.

I had a strong feeling that the M3 2-spoke wheel would "on paper" be the fastest. I don't disagree with you on the down force load concern. But, I would hope that the company did some research and testing with this in mind. I know that if you hit a bump or curb while the wheel is at certain rotation, there is a greater chance of exceeding the load capacity. Again, I just hope the company took this into consideration.

What are your thoughts on the aero shape of the blades and leading edges of the blades, and the edge line closest to the hub? Would you prefer different airfoil shapes?

Thanks for the input.

Thanks an interesting question. We know the exact velocity difference between different points of the spoke/blade relative to other parts, but I think that if you wanted to tune the width and shape you'd need to do fluid flow analysis.

On a side note, I always think it's funny when people always mention the wind tunnel when it comes to testing bikes and wheels without a rider. Fluid flow analysis via Solidworks or ANSYS is always going to be more accurate. (And cheaper)

You can never claim computer modelling is more accurate than windtunnel testing. Computer modelling provides a way of estimating not measuring a value. The only way to gauge the quality of the modelling estimate is to compare it against real world measurements i.e. windtunnel test data. Modelling may give more reproducible and/or consistent results but the results may also be completely wrong. In summary modelling data always needs to be validated in the tunnel which is why tunnel testing is such a big deal.

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 7:10

Post #19 of 58 (7279 views)

imswimmer328 wrote:

1) how would you model it?

2) testing without a rider is useless, it completely changes the flow

3) solidworks has a great CAD program. Their simulation tools are not so good

Model it by making the wheel spin @ speed x and applying the appropriate translational velocity to it.

Testing without a rider is completely fine if we’re measuring the aerodynamics of the front wheel which is unaffected by the rider.

I’ve done plenty of work with both solid works and ANSYS for fluid flow analysis with airfoils and both have yielded good results.

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [scott8888] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 7:16

Post #20 of 58 (7269 views)

scott8888 wrote:

jmjtri wrote:

Taugen wrote:

jmjtri wrote:

The two spoke wheel tests the fastest from what I've seen. As a mechanical engineer, I would tell you to stay away from it though. If you want to know why, just draw a force diagram of the wheel at a few different orientations... you'll see why. Aside from that, the deeper wheel is virtually always going to be faster if you can handle it.

I had a strong feeling that the M3 2-spoke wheel would "on paper" be the fastest. I don't disagree with you on the down force load concern. But, I would hope that the company did some research and testing with this in mind. I know that if you hit a bump or curb while the wheel is at certain rotation, there is a greater chance of exceeding the load capacity. Again, I just hope the company took this into consideration.

What are your thoughts on the aero shape of the blades and leading edges of the blades, and the edge line closest to the hub? Would you prefer different airfoil shapes?

Thanks for the input.

Thanks an interesting question. We know the exact velocity difference between different points of the spoke/blade relative to other parts, but I think that if you wanted to tune the width and shape you'd need to do fluid flow analysis.

On a side note, I always think it's funny when people always mention the wind tunnel when it comes to testing bikes and wheels without a rider. Fluid flow analysis via Solidworks or ANSYS is always going to be more accurate. (And cheaper)

You can never claim computer modelling is more accurate than windtunnel testing. Computer modelling provides a way of estimating not measuring a value. The only way to gauge the quality of the modelling estimate is to compare it against real world measurements i.e. windtunnel test data. Modelling may give more reproducible and/or consistent results but the results may also be completely wrong. In summary modelling data always needs to be validated in the tunnel which is why tunnel testing is such a big deal.

A wind tunnel is a means of estimating too. In both cases you’re assuming variables and conditions. Computers run algorithms in both cases. I’m not going to argue with you that it should be validated via a wind tunnel. The more ways you can validate data the better. And I’ve never seen an instance were fluid flow analysis is “completely wrong”.

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [jmjtri] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 7:45

Post #21 of 58 (7226 views)

And you really think you're going to just whip up a model of a wheel and a frame and have it actually be accurate?

I also suspect the front wheel will affect how the air interacts with a rider's legs. You're fundamentally changing the flow over everything behind the wheel

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 7:57

Post #22 of 58 (7202 views)

imswimmer328 wrote:

And you really think you're going to just whip up a model of a wheel and a frame and have it actually be accurate?

I also suspect the front wheel will affect how the air interacts with a rider's legs. You're fundamentally changing the flow over everything behind the wheel

A lot of company’s will send part files of their products upon request. If the product is patented, then a model had to have been submitted with the patent request.

And why do you care about the change in flow behind the wheel? If the wheel tests faster it’s because it creates less turbulent flow which means it’s going to leave less turbulent flow behind the wheel. I’d be shocked if you could find me a wheel that tests fast on its own that somehow tests slow when fixed to the bike.

*you could also accept the fact that deeper wheels generally test faster and the difference between middle range and high end wheels of the same depth test too similarly for it to truely matter*

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [scott8888] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 7:58

Post #23 of 58 (7202 views)

scott8888 wrote:

When Zipp discontinued the 1080 they released some data comparing the 1080 to the then new 808 FC. According to Zipp the new rim firecrest rim profile was a significant improvement but could not be executed in the 1080 depth because the rim would have been enormously wide and wouldn't have fit into most bikes. This was of course before anyone was promoting really wide rims and bike manufactures limited frame clearance to narrow rims. In the modern era of discs I wonder if Zipp could revisit the 1080 but I digress. Overall the claim was that because of its toroidal profile the 808FC was faster than the 1080 so the 1080 was killed off.

I have seen graphs which show the 1080 as still being the fastest front wheel but my guess is this is very bike and tire dependent.

I’d say it’s a wash the 808fc is probably wind tunnel faster, and definitely more stable, but you got more speed points from riding the 1080 because it looked way cooler as a front wheel.

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 8:03

Post #24 of 58 (7192 views)

Jet 9 plus with an older supersonic 20 is one fast front wheel.

Re: Most aero front wheel: 1080, 808, 404, 3 spoke, 2 spoke, Xentis 4 or 5 spoke???? [ridenfish39] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 18 12:34

Post #25 of 58 (7047 views)

ridenfish39 wrote:

Jet 9 plus with an older supersonic 20 is one fast front wheel.

I thought jet9 is fastest with Vittoria Corsa TLR 25?

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