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Re: Michael Weiss [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
That still doesn't remove the disincentive for an athlete to have to defend themselves against a defamation lawsuit. That's why this stuff doesn't come out in the open in 99% of cases.

I understand why athletes don't do it. I get it it - war is expensive. That is a problem with our legal system today and I think it is an unfortunate reality.


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Re: Michael Weiss [ In reply to ]
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When will Herbert be interviewing Weiss???
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Re: Michael Weiss [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I will take one last turn at this :-)
Definition of cheater- someone who does not adhere to the rules. Can we all agree on this?
Weiss WAS a cheater. It is obvious everyone agrees with this!
The RULES call for a suspension, which Weiss complied with and served. He apparently has also complied with all of the required testing rules since his returned (otherwise he would have been further suspended or banned)
So, if Weiss is currently following all the rules, then he is NOT cheating.
Weiss is not the only triathlete who has cheated and been suspended for it, not even close.
No one can KNOW who is cheating in a given race unless the person has been caught, or you actually witnessed it.
It seems that NO ONE should be calling anyone out if there is not proof of the infraction, speculative call outs are indeed a slippery slope.
If you don’t like the rules, ie duration of suspensions, then fight to change them, but don’t bash someone for following them.
There are plenty of rules/laws that I am fighting to change, such as the penalties for DUI, which I think are obscenely too light, but in the mean time I refrain from calling out individuals who I know that have served what I consider to lienient a penalty.
I don’t like the current penalties, AND enforcement of doping and drafting, but honestly these are both way down my list of concerns :-)
I try my best to remind myself to be tolerant and avoid being judgmental of others, hopefully we can all agree to work on this!
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Re: Michael Weiss [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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Not necessarily referring to Weiss but all dopers in general. So actually yes!

Doping is not something you can do on your own, it needs time and an infrastructure: to use PED you need to "work" with more people. All of them are part of the problem. Make no mistakes: they are all part of a criminal organisation.

When they're caught doping their usual response is: "it was a one-time mistake". No. It was not. Do you really want to come clean? Report all your accomplices so they can be also prosecuted. If not you're part of the criminal organisation. Period.

This is the bare minimum you need to do to be considered again a valuable member of the community. But competing again? No. Never. Forget it.

Competing is a privilege not a right. And you lost it for good.

So the question dopers need to ask themselves is: Do I want to be accepted as a member of the society? Because their competitive days are over (pro or ager) and their past, present, and future achievements should be deleted for ever.
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Re: Michael Weiss [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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if you were doped to stay at the top, how can you be at the top without?
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Re: Michael Weiss [elquike] [ In reply to ]
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elquike wrote:
Not necessarily referring to Weiss but all dopers in general. So actually yes!

Doping is not something you can do on your own, it needs time and an infrastructure: to use PED you need to "work" with more people. All of them are part of the problem. Make no mistakes: they are all part of a criminal organisation.

When they're caught doping their usual response is: "it was a one-time mistake". No. It was not. Do you really want to come clean? Report all your accomplices so they can be also prosecuted. If not you're part of the criminal organisation. Period.

This is the bare minimum you need to do to be considered again a valuable member of the community. But competing again? No. Never. Forget it.

Competing is a privilege not a right. And you lost it for good.

So the question dopers need to ask themselves is: Do I want to be accepted as a member of the society? Because their competitive days are over (pro or ager) and their past, present, and future achievements should be deleted for ever.


I in general agree with your comment, as I tend to be in favor of erring on the side of harsher penalties, particularly for infractions of clear, conscious choice, such as doping (and DUI’s), but until the laws and rules are changed to reflect this, other than petitioning for change, I try to avoid condemning people for abiding by the rules as they now stand. From my perspective, it is a FAR bigger issue that our society is soft and lienient on DUI, which results in more deaths per month than all world wide terroist acts in the last 50 YEARS! I am not aware of ANY deaths (of those not involved) from athletes doping :-) I only mention this as a point of perspective.
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Re: Michael Weiss [Plissken74] [ In reply to ]
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Plissken74 wrote:
if you were doped to stay at the top, how can you be at the top without?

I don’t know, I have never doped :-)
There is a lot of data from the cycling world that doping does not have the same influence for all athletes. This makes sense, as it is the case with all medications. What this means, is certain athletes will benefit far more than others, which conversely means some athletes will loose less performance than others when stopping.
Bottom line- no one should dope! Yet MANY DO. No one should draft in a non drafting race, yet MANY DO.
I cannot change this, and neither can you. I can, and do choose not to dope, not to draft, not to cheat, and so can you! So if everyone signs up, problem solved.
This is not a new problem, there is significant evidence that the beginning of cheating in sport began with the beginning of sport.
So ultimately, it is a personal choice. I have made mine, I hope others follow, but if they don’t, I do not have the time or energy to worry about it.
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Re: Michael Weiss [Plissken74] [ In reply to ]
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if you were doped to stay at the top, how can you be at the top without? //

I think you are under some false impression that dopers were not great athletes to begin with. OF course there may be some residual benefits years later after quitting(another subject which I believe to be true), but I think there are a lot of ex dopers out there still killing it in cycling. I dont think the entire peloton is clean, but I do believe the majority of it is now and a lot of those guys today were in the midst of the doping era.


And Weiss is not at the top, he is near it. Of course there are so many watered down Ironman races now it can look like one is dominating, but just take a look at the WC for 70.3 and Kona to see who is really on top. It does look like he has made an improvement, but honestly, without knowing if the courses are short( I believe this latest one for sure was) how can anyone be worked up about a time on a short course? I will give you all a clue, be would not have outrun Javier, or Brownlee, or Frodo,Lange, or several others that routinely beat him in runs. And on the other side, he would not have outridden Lionel, or Sebi, or Wurf either.


Mikki is a student of the sport of Triathlon who now has a pretty long history in the sport, and should be improving, and he is an ex doper who probably races clean now. This is all we know for sure until something else comes along to change things..
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Re: Michael Weiss [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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IntenseOne wrote:
elquike wrote:
Not necessarily referring to Weiss but all dopers in general. So actually yes!

Doping is not something you can do on your own, it needs time and an infrastructure: to use PED you need to "work" with more people. All of them are part of the problem. Make no mistakes: they are all part of a criminal organisation.

When they're caught doping their usual response is: "it was a one-time mistake". No. It was not. Do you really want to come clean? Report all your accomplices so they can be also prosecuted. If not you're part of the criminal organisation. Period.

This is the bare minimum you need to do to be considered again a valuable member of the community. But competing again? No. Never. Forget it.

Competing is a privilege not a right. And you lost it for good.

So the question dopers need to ask themselves is: Do I want to be accepted as a member of the society? Because their competitive days are over (pro or ager) and their past, present, and future achievements should be deleted for ever.



I in general agree with your comment, as I tend to be in favor of erring on the side of harsher penalties, particularly for infractions of clear, conscious choice, such as doping (and DUI’s), but until the laws and rules are changed to reflect this, other than petitioning for change, I try to avoid condemning people for abiding by the rules as they now stand. From my perspective, it is a FAR bigger issue that our society is soft and lienient on DUI, which results in more deaths per month than all world wide terroist acts in the last 50 YEARS! I am not aware of ANY deaths (of those not involved) from athletes doping :-) I only mention this as a point of perspective.

You are right. DUI is far worse than doping.

Doping can also be seen for example as a fraud or (if you're forced into it) as corruption but it cannot be compared to DUI or any other "serious" crimes.

I was only referring to "valuable member of community" is the field of sports. I want to be tough on doping but without losing the perspective as you very well explained.
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Re: Michael Weiss [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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I don't remember if Beth named the supplement which supposedly caused the ostarine positive, but Lauren Barnett did. I understand she's actually suing them now. She had a stronger case than Beth though, if I remember correctly.

Ironically, Beth races again soon whereas Lauren shows no public signs of coming back.
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Re: Michael Weiss [mbwallis] [ In reply to ]
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mbwallis wrote:
I don't remember if Beth named the supplement which supposedly caused the ostarine positive, but Lauren Barnett did. I understand she's actually suing them now. She had a stronger case than Beth though, if I remember correctly.

Ironically, Beth races again soon whereas Lauren shows no public signs of coming back.

I do not no Lauren, and she very well may have taken the supplement unaware that it contained ostarine. I don’t remember the name of the supplement, but I do remember that it was an electrolyte replacement that marketed itself by proclaiming it would boost your performance by a significant amount. I also remember it did not list ostarine as an ingredient, but wouldn’t you want to know what was allegedly in at that was boosting your performance? Ancient salt- LOL? I know I would have asked, and I think Lauren should have. Maybe she did, but I know for sure that none of their listed ingredients could have provided a performance boost, so if she asked, it would have to have been an ingredient they were not listing, and who would take a product from a company that is not fully listing what they put in it. There are literally hundreds of options for electrolytes, when you decide to take one from a company guaranteeing performance gains- from a secret ingredient, you probably deserve whatever comes from it.
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Re: Michael Weiss [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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She got the supplement from a triathlon store that *probably* sponsored her. The supplement maker was local.

This was not a case of Spiked Gatorade given To her on the course. But this also wasn’t a trip to GNC and picking something up next to a bottle of all natural Turbo Maxxxx extreme.
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Re: Michael Weiss [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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The company was Classified Nutrition according to the following Triathlete.ca article. What I would be most interested in if this plays out in court is how fault is placed. Is it Classified Nutrition mostly at fault or the company that was responsible for making/packaging the product assuming there is one, or some other supplier?


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Re: Michael Weiss [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
She got the supplement from a triathlon store that *probably* sponsored her. The supplement maker was local.

This was not a case of Spiked Gatorade given To her on the course. But this also wasn’t a trip to GNC and picking something up next to a bottle of all natural Turbo Maxxxx extreme.

Yep, I know all of that, but also know not to ingest something if I do not know exactly what is in it. If I am getting an electrolyte, even for free from a sponsor, and it is labeled that it boosts performance, I am not taking it without a very, very good explanation of what is in it.
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Re: Michael Weiss [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
The company was Classified Nutrition according to the following Triathlete.ca article. What I would be most interested in if this plays out in court is how fault is placed. Is it Classified Nutrition mostly at fault or the company that was responsible for making/packaging the product assuming there is one, or some other supplier?

Thanks for the reminder. This company was apparently buying Osterine from an illegal source (it is not legal in the US), and yet they are still doing business, just no longer for their electrolyte product. Here is a statement from the USADA:
“Classified Nutrition
An electrolyte replacement product manufactured by Classified Nutrition was recently found to contain Ostarine, an investigational new drug that has not been approved for human consumption. The Classified Nutrition product, called Neurolytes, is also on USADA’s HRL.”

My question then, and now, is why would anyone take an ELECTROLYTE actively claiming a boost in performance ???
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Re: Michael Weiss [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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Oh I agree. I am not suggesting she did deserve a ban.
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Re: Michael Weiss [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
There seems to be extensive virtue signalling, moral relativism and some cognitive dissonance knocking around here

Apparently a clothing line from a doper is an outrage. Workouts scribed by a sexual predator are ok.........

I am going to have to seriously think this shit through.

Would I rather my daughter's wore a dopers clothes or be coached by Sutton..........

Edit. Cue the responses citing revisionist history, his mea culpa, how there is no moral equivalence blah blah blah

If I choose to exercise my right to be coached by Sutton i would also choose to keep my mouth shut about others exercising poor judgement


Bravo. Couldn't agree more. Moral relativism puzzles can be tough. But, in this case, not so much. If we're going to have a conversation about offences worthy of a lifetime ban from the sport, crimes of pedophilia against young athletes placed in your care seems like a really good place to start.

Good call. Any athletes that are Catholics or go to church we should bar them from the sport or at least tell them to shut up for supporting an organisation that conducted thousands of cases of pedophilia against children under their care, defended it in court putting them on the stand and let so many committed suicide but we all still celebrate Christmas and Easter.

Is a kid that stole a candy bar from a store always labelled a thief and carry that through life and into his job career. What about someone that commits DUI? I have a lot more contempt for them than an ex doper... Sutton is now married with a wife and children.

Who among us is totally moral and just on all levels? When do people move on?


god i hate this argument in relation to sutton. i hereby declare that i am not totally moral and just on all levels. but i can also say with 100% certainty that i haven't ever raped a child that i was coaching.

i agree that there's all sorts of grey area in the world of doping. but are we really so far down the relativism rabbit hole that we can't draw the line at coaches raping athletes?

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Michael Weiss [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
but honestly, without knowing if the courses are short( I believe this latest one for sure was)


I measured 89,6 km resp. 20.44 km in St. Pölten.
Last edited by: longtrousers: May 31, 18 23:59
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Re: Michael Weiss [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe you should learn all the facts before you make it sound so black and white then (agreed yes he was in the wrong) but I really can't believe people still bang on about it.

https://www.outsideonline.com/1892511/they-shoot-triathletes-dont-they
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Re: Michael Weiss [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I really can't believe people still bang on about it.


She was 14. A child. And, as her coach, he was an authority figure with significant influence over her. He abused that authority in the worst way possible.

Your moral code (or lack thereof) is becoming more apparent with every post you make. Unbelievable.

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
https://alancouzens.com
https://humango.ai
Last edited by: Alan Couzens: Jun 1, 18 6:25
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Re: Michael Weiss [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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People have the right to bang on about it. Thank you for sharing the article though. I found this quote pretty interesting and it made me wonder what he is up to these days -

Richie Cunningham, a professional triathlete from Australia, says, "I would never be coached by the guy. I guess for some it's OK to sell your soul, as long as you end up winning."


https://twitter.com/mungub
http://benmunguia.blogspot.com
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Re: Michael Weiss [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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IntenseOne wrote:
No one can KNOW who is cheating in a given race unless the person has been caught, or you actually witnessed it.
It seems that NO ONE should be calling anyone out if there is not proof of the infraction, speculative call outs are indeed a slippery slope.

Here's my rule of thumb: there are several people whom I privately suspect of doping. I do not call them out or make accusations unless I am also willing to report them to USADA. (And I have tipped USADA before - it's easy and efficient to do, and they respond promptly to reports).

Pointing fingers in social media doesn't accomplish much in the end. Assisting USADA is far more likely to achieve the desired result.
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Re: Michael Weiss [mungub50] [ In reply to ]
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mungub50 wrote:
People have the right to bang on about it. Thank you for sharing the article though. I found this quote pretty interesting and it made me wonder what he is up to these days -

Richie Cunningham, a professional triathlete from Australia, says, "I would never be coached by the guy. I guess for some it's OK to sell your soul, as long as you end up winning."

I believe he is a firefighter or working for some sort of job like that in Colorado.


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Re: Michael Weiss [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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I prefer this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/...ry/0,,678189,00.html

"The first offence occurred when the swimmer was staying at Sutton's house, and the coach joined her in bed. 'She states that she was very scared and didn't know how to handle the situation and she knew it was wrong,' the prosecution said. Another offence happened when Sutton was massaging the girl. 'As he was rubbing her leg he moved his hand further towards her groin and he put one of his fingers in her vagina,' the court was told.

The other counts included one where Sutton picked the girl up from school, took her to an underground car park and forced her to give him oral sex in the back of the van. 'She tried to lift her head but his hand was at the back of her head,' the court was told. 'She recalls him saying things like 'You're good at this'. She states that she felt like it was something she was supposed to be doing because he made her feel like it's the right thing to do.'"

Yep, that's who I want to pay for workout plans. Why bang on about raping children?
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Re: Michael Weiss [mbwallis] [ In reply to ]
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I prefer to simply call out dopers whilst he just does my plans. Dopers suck...........and I won't wear clothes designed or made by dopers...........
Last edited by: Andrewmc: Jun 1, 18 9:17
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