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Merry X-Mas Andy Potts
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Just got in from the live coverage of the Cap-Tex tri, and what a race. As I write this, Dan is digging into the finer details of what went on out there, and talking to some of the players involved, but here is what I saw out there and heard from folks. Tell me what you would have done??

So the men pros go off in the swim, and early in the race someone in a boat(unknown who at this time, perhaps official, perhaps race volunteer, perhaps none of those) comes up and yells at them to go this way and ignore the turn buoy. They all do except Potts and one other guy, who I believe is off the back already. So do you follow the course that you think you know, or follow what appears to be an officials order?? Looking at my notes now, it appears that it gave Andy a 2;50 lead on the others, and the one other guy managed to turn what would have been a 3 minute or so deficit in the swim, to a few second lead on the actual lead mens pack..What would you have done and why?

So now the women that leave 4 minutes after the men, all do the correct course, as it has been sorted out by now, and the fast girls are now right behind the men pros. The get all mixed in, and now the next little gray area emerges. I notice that Sara McLarty is running right on the shoulder of Dustin McLarty, hard to miss with both of them with names all over their suits. Could be a pass, but I watch them come from 200 yards away, and watch them go off a 1/4 mile, and it is apparent that he is jogging to break wind for her. 2k later same thing, and at the finish he sprints ahead of her with a 1/4 to go after doing the entire run with her, so what's up with that?? Dan will talk more later about other cases like this we have seen, where pacing among the women by spouses, sibilings, coaches, ect., who just happen to be in the race, has been around for quite some time. So what do you all think about this situation, ok or bending some rule to the breaking point???

Anyway great day out there, I wish I knew if Potts just soft raced to win, or was having a bad day with tremendous luck. As a former pro myself, I have been in similar situations, and just cannot tell if this was Hunters race stolen, or Andy's early X-mas present from the triathlon Santa. Quite a present too, over $12k and the new series leader, gonna be some mad boys out there...
Last edited by: monty: May 30, 11 9:53
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty,

I was out there too, as you know, and the drafting/pacing by the McClarty's was really annoying. I saw them go by the Congress and Cesar Chavez cross point multiple times and she was on him like glue. The whole race was a bit of a disaster from the swim issue, Potts going (being directed) off course out of T1 and many athletes cutting the course in small places. I am sure there is going to be some seriously upset folks, but I don't see how to make it right for anyone really. I am just disappointed to not see if Potts could have won that race had it gone more smoothly. That would have been good.



"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
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Ya, forgot to talk about that bike mishap for Potts. I got there just seconds after it happened, but the marshal on the corner told me that Potts got mis directed out of transition, had to go back and retrace his path, and eventually get on the right way out. I have no idea why it happened, but he gave back between 25 to 60 seconds form accounts I could gather from this mishap. Since he had nearly 3 minutes in the bank from the other mishap, probably did not bother him too much. But I point it out as this shows that the others did not ride all the advantage in some cases(Cameron Dye) back, but most of it minus that sanfu..
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [monty] [ In reply to ]
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My opinion is that they should award Hunter and Andy equal 1st place prize money and points, and then trickle everyone else "up." So 3rd place gets 2nd points/$, etc. This has the marginal cost of $12,500 (because you are paying double prize money). I think that's a relatively small fee for a very clear mistake on the part of the race organizers.

Now even the above is not clearly "fair." Would Cam Dye have hung on if he didn't have to make up 2.5min? Who knows. But the above is the MOST FAIR, given the circumstances.

There's no way to know how the race might have played out if there had been no mishaps. But it's wrong, to me, to pretend there were no mishaps and to just allow the placings and prize money to stand as is.

There was a f' up. The race should take ownership of said screw up and do the best they can to make it right. What I dislike is like in NYC in 2006, when they choose to ignore the fact that a mistake was made and pretend that they are "certain it didn't affect the outcome." NYC'06 had a MUCH less clear influence on the race outcome than this did, but it still is the sort of thing that shows triathlon is not yet "grown up."

Mistakes happen. They seem, unfortunately, to happen more often in triathlon than in other sports (Carol Montgomery being denied the WC win when they only ran 3x2.5km loops instead of 4 back in 200X). But what's really shameful, I think, is that these races just want to pretend that the mistakes did not happen and so figure that if they ignore the mistakes, as opposed to trying to make amends, that somehow everyone will know that a mistake was made and think less. Or that they will be out more $$.

It's easy for CapTex to do something to try and make it right. Will they? I don't know. But I think they should.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
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Pacing is forbidden by USAT rules. See rule 3.4.d http://assets.teamusa.org/...ame/28818/usatcr.pdf
It should be resultant in a 1 minute time penalty.
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [triath500] [ In reply to ]
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Pacing is forbidden by USAT rules. See rule 3.4.d http://assets.teamusa.org/...ame/28818/usatcr.pdf
It should be resultant in a 1 minute time penalty.


So when David Thompson caught Matty Reed, and Matty got in behind him in the run, then went on to outsprint him at the finish, Matty should have a one minute penalty too???

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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I humbly submit what I saw happen from the bridge in Microsoft Paint Form. In my opinion the swim was marked well.


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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I think that reporting that Dusty McLarty did the whole run with his sister, only to sprint ahead of her for the finish line is enough of a penalty for him.

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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Pacing is forbidden by USAT rules. See rule 3.4.d http://assets.teamusa.org/...ame/28818/usatcr.pdf
It should be resultant in a 1 minute time penalty.


So when David Thompson caught Matty Reed, and Matty got in behind him in the run, then went on to outsprint him at the finish, Matty should have a one minute penalty too???
Thats a little different situation. Getting passed on the run and then re-passing is not pacing, because the person in front is not intentionally setting any particular pace. Running with someone who is setting a specific pace for you and nobody else is absolutely pacing.
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [Pantelones] [ In reply to ]
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Pantelones wrote:
I humbly submit what I saw happen from the bridge in Microsoft Paint Form. In my opinion the swim was marked well.


If your sketch is accurate, Andy Potts should be DQ'ed.

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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo, I agree as they were both way off the back and going backwards from what it seemed. Still, a lot of people where going 'WTH, how are they allowed to that?'.



"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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My opinion is that they should award Hunter and Andy equal 1st place prize money and points, and then trickle everyone else "up." So 3rd place gets 2nd points/$, etc.//

There is a precedent for this, and I should know, I set it. Many of you know that besides being a pro, I was also a RD of over 75 triathlons in the old days. One of my races, the LA tri Series, had a course mishap, some car had run over all the cones on a turn, which caused riders to go straight instead of turning..Lucky for us, it was a dead end road very quickly, and they turned around and got back on course. We fixed it right away, but several athletes were affected. Now here I am, a pro that has gone through this same exact scenario many, many times, only to get screwed by the RD's, and I have to do something. SO I came up with the idea that all those that went off into the little loop would get a time reduction that equaled the mishap. But now you have the other athletes that crossed the line in front of those affected, but now behind in the final results. So what I did was double all the places where there was doubt as to finish, and pay double prize money in those places. Cost me some money, but I had to own that mistake in my mind to the pros.

Jump ahead to 1993 at the Wildflower tri, and now Terry Davis is faced with the same dilema. No cone or volunteer at the run turnaround, and the 1st 10 or so guys just run past it and end up turning from 1/2 mile to 3 miles too much..So as you could imagine, the pros were furious at the finish line, and I was one of them as I got 3rd. I took Terry into a room and told him what I had done, and was able to convinve him that the extra several thousand dollars he would pay out would come back in a huge way in settling all the pros problems. He did just that, and i think at least 4 of the places were doubled up and paid the same, so 2 2nd place, 3-3rd's, and so on, until all affected were happy...

Will be interesting to see what happens here..

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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [triath500] [ In reply to ]
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Of course it looks fishy, and i would bet my bottom dollar that he was pacing her, but all it would come down to is speculation and opinion. They could easily just say that he was running the best he could that day and she was just having a good day and holding his pace.


Rattlesnake Blake
With the "Venom Enom"
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [Rattlesnake] [ In reply to ]
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Except I am sure there is video footage showing her right on his back side (and moving from one side to the other as the wind angle changed). It was as clear as night at day that she was trying to stay in his draft. They were far too close together to be considered anything otherwise.



"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [RFXCrunner] [ In reply to ]
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Thats a little different situation. Getting passed on the run and then re-passing is not pacing, because the person in front is not intentionally setting any particular pace. Running with someone who is setting a specific pace for you and nobody else is absolutely pacing.//

I guess i missed it in the rule you cited, where exactly does it say anything about intentional?? And if it did, who decides intent??

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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo Sousa wrote:
If your sketch is accurate, Andy Potts should be DQ'ed.


The yellow dots are right turn bouys (and the reds are straight line boundary bouys). I don't believe he cut the course from my viewpoint so there would be no reason for a DQ. The entire swim pack made a left turn near the second bouy for some reason.
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [triath500] [ In reply to ]
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triath500 wrote:
Pacing is forbidden by USAT rules. See rule 3.4.d http://assets.teamusa.org/...ame/28818/usatcr.pdf
It should be resultant in a 1 minute time penalty.

Wow, this would be an almost impossible rule for a marshall to enforce....they would have to know whether there was some type of relationship between the various runners to know whether it was pacing or just someone drafting or trying to hang on. I understand the frustration but you better be ready for the inevitable slide down this slope if they start enforcing this on the run. If someone is in the race and they choose to sacrifice their race to pace someone on the run then that will have to just happen. Don't imagine it happens that often but I don't see how the officials can stop this. It is far different than someone pacing that isn't in the race, that is plain and obvious.
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [Pantelones] [ In reply to ]
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Now I'm confused. "Everyone else" went for a little loop, or were there buoys there? What course did the women do?

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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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There were no buoys out there, and the women did the same course as Potts did. A boat drove up and blocked the men, and told them to go out in this no mans land, where i think there may have been a river boat buoy, but not a course one.
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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The womens race went with Potts around the actual course it would appear.

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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [rpeterson] [ In reply to ]
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Got it. That's messed up...

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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [monty] [ In reply to ]
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It is the intent of the pacer, not the pacee. Pacing yourself off of someone trying to beat you is much different from pacing yourself off of someone who is running a specific pace to help you. The rule doesn't say intentional, because pacing implies intentional. You can't have accidental pacing- it takes two people working together to do it. You're allowed to pace yourself off of others to your hearts content, unless they are intentionally setting a pace for you to follow. The situation you described in your first post sounds like pacing. Getting passed in a raace and hanging on to outkick is not.
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not a pro and don't make my living from triathlon, but isn't there a greater responsibility on the athlete? They're supposed to know the course like it's their, well, job. Turn bouys are pretty obvious from what I've seen. Same thing applies to T1. Should others be penalized as well because Potts was confused? I don't think so.

A few year ago, Macca got lead off course at Columbia not once, but twice on the bike. He didn't complain after Lieto won. Yea, Under Armour was PISSSSSSSSSSED, but Macca was classy throughout.

Bob
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [rpeterson] [ In reply to ]
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Not exactly with Potts, as he started 4 minutes before. But in that amount of time, the persons unknown on the boat figured out they screwed up, and got the men going the right way, and the women had the advantage of now the course was vetted so to speak.
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Re: Merry X-Mas Andy Potts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Everyone else (excluding potts and one other lone swimmer) did that wierd loop and came back on course. The women did the course just as intended with a right turn at each yellow bouy. As the girls made their second right turn they merged into the rear of the "everyone else" male pack coming back on course.
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