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Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study
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Measures of training stress in cyclists do not usefully predict maximum mean power in competitions

H.A. Ferguson1, C.D. Paton2, W.G. Hopkins1

1Auckland Institute of Technology, Auckland, New Zealand; 2Eastern Institute of Technology, Napier, New Zealand.

Background
Many competitive cyclists use mobile ergometers to monitor power output during training and competition rides. A training-impulse model is then often used to combine a training-stress score from each ride into measures of "fitness" and "fatigue", the difference in which is interpreted as a measure of "freshness" that might predict competitive performance.

Purpose
To determine the effect of fitness, fatigue and freshness the day before cycling competitions on physiological indicators of performance in the competitions.

Methods
Twenty male and four female competitive cyclists (29 ± 9 y, 71 ± 7 kg, mean ± SD) provided recordings of their SRM or Quarq mobile ergometers for training rides, 55 time trials (16-40 km), and 447 mass-start road races over a 6- to 8-month period. TrainingPeaks software (version WKO+ 3) was used to synthesize fitness, fatigue and freshness scores on the day before each competition and to extract maximal mean power (MMP) for four durations (5 s, 60 s, 5 min, 20 min) from the competition ride. The within-cyclist relationship between each measure of training and each measure of performance was investigated by producing scatterplots of the deviations from each rider's mean training and mean performance measure for time trials and road races in single-day and multi-day competitions. Mixed modeling was used to quantify the relationship as the linear effect of a change of two within-cyclist standard deviations of the measure of training, assuming a smallest important change in performance of 1%.

Results
Individual typical variation in maximum mean power from competition to competition ranged from ±7.1% (5-min MMP) to ±14% (5-s MMP). Scatterplots were generally consistent with a random relationship between the indicators of performance in competitions and the measures of training the previous day, and all effects of training measures on performance measures were unclear.

Discussion
The uncertainty in the relationships between the measures of training and the measures of performance is due to the extremely poor reliability of the measures of maximum mean power. Contextual information about each competition ride might improve the reliability by helping to filter out or otherwise account for poorer performances. Alternatively other measures of performance from competitions are needed to determine whether fitness, fatigue and freshness usefully predict competition performance.

Conclusions
Maximum mean power in competitions is too unreliable to determine whether the measures of fitness, fatigue and freshness provided by mobile ergometers and TrainingPeaks software reflect readiness for competitions.
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [Trev The Rev] [ In reply to ]
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CTL is often referred to as 'how long you can go hard'. Maybe IF would have been a better measure.

Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [mortysct] [ In reply to ]
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Don't entice him mort he's the power nonbeliever troll
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [toolbox] [ In reply to ]
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Oh, I didnt know that lol

Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [Trev The Rev] [ In reply to ]
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I could probably get Mr Ferguson to chime in here himself, but what he is saying in the conclusion is that race performances to not always extract the max possible performance out of a rider, and hence are not useful to asses whether the PMC metrics are doing their job. For instance you might be in the best shape of your life, but during the race you sit in until the last 5 seconds. There will be no indication of whether your 60 minute power was at a new high or not.

I would expect TT events to be so however, I will ask him if he looked at TTs only. Perhaps there are not enough of them per cyclist to draw any conclusions.


Trev The Rev wrote:

Conclusions
Maximum mean power in competitions is too unreliable to determine whether the measures of fitness, fatigue and freshness provided by mobile ergometers and TrainingPeaks software reflect readiness for competitions.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Last edited by: jackmott: Jul 7, 14 5:51
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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As I understand it yes he did.

"analysis after submitting the abstract the main finding is that max mean powers from competition are highly variable even if we remove the bottom half the competition data, separate into RR and TT and adjust for TT differences. "

Somewhat surprising?

Edit: his comments can be found here

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=20109&page=107


Post #1066
Last edited by: Trev The Rev: Jul 7, 14 6:08
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [Trev The Rev] [ In reply to ]
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Trev The Rev wrote:
"analysis after submitting the abstract the main finding is that max mean powers from competition are highly variable even if we remove the bottom half the competition data, separate into RR and TT and adjust for TT differences. "

Somewhat surprising?

Maybe, I might expect this result from athletes who were holding pretty consistent CTL over the test period. Like if people did the same 40k TT power at a CTL of 70 as they did at 120 I would be astounded. But if it is impossible to extract any performance difference from CTLs of 110 vs 120, that would not be surprising at all. Too many confounding factors unless you had a huge data set.

I like what he is doing though, if you collected enough clean data and refined this approach well it would make a nice system for validating different approaches.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [Trev The Rev] [ In reply to ]
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Is there a link to the full paper?

And to the OP...so power is no good...what is your suggestion for a better way to track fitness and fatigue? I can poke holes in just about anything, but that is worthless unless I have a suggestion for something better.
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [pyrahna] [ In reply to ]
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pyrahna wrote:
Is there a link to the full paper?

And to the OP...so power is no good...what is your suggestion for a better way to track fitness and fatigue? I can poke holes in just about anything, but that is worthless unless I have a suggestion for something better.

Here : http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5014504;#5014504

The post summarizes things nicely. The thread provides some context
The OPs methods are documented.
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [pyrahna] [ In reply to ]
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Trev the Rev's "thing" isn't that power is no good. It is that Coggan's metrics are no good. Which might even be true. It is worth investigating.


pyrahna wrote:
Is there a link to the full paper?

And to the OP...so power is no good...what is your suggestion for a better way to track fitness and fatigue? I can poke holes in just about anything, but that is worthless unless I have a suggestion for something better.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Now that I have read up on his feelings I can understand where he is coming from. I just wish that he had laid out his system as clearly as Andrew has laid out his. He might have a better system, he might not, but I can't compare the two systems for myself because one is very clearly laid out, and been implemented for me in multiple places, and one has been insinuated. It is easy to poke holes, it is hard to come up with solutions that fix problems and to lay them out for other people to use them effectively.
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [pyrahna] [ In reply to ]
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Ultimately people are trying to quantify a very very noisy thing (human fitness and training load), and it is very possible that of the various approaches (hours, kilojoules, TSS, complex combinations of heart rate and power) all do exactly as well as one another, or, to the extent that one is better than another it would be extremely hard to measure the difference, as you would need large sets of carefully collected, accurate data across many years. Very few people collect their data accurately and carefully enough to begin with.






pyrahna wrote:
Now that I have read up on his feelings I can understand where he is coming from. I just wish that he had laid out his system as clearly as Andrew has laid out his. He might have a better system, he might not, but I can't compare the two systems for myself because one is very clearly laid out, and been implemented for me in multiple places, and one has been insinuated. It is easy to poke holes, it is hard to come up with solutions that fix problems and to lay them out for other people to use them effectively.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think that's quite correct. AFAIK, TRIMP for instance (maybe TSS) has been validated, which is not the case of other measures.
The accuracy of the data now is an other issue.
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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>I don't think that's quite correct. AFAIK, TRIMP for instance (maybe TSS) has been validated, which is not the case of other measures.
>The accuracy of the data now is an other issue.

The only TSS validation I can seem to find is:

Skiba PF. Evaluation of a novel training metric in trained cyclists
(Abstract). Med Sci Sports Exerc Suppl 39: S448, 2007.
But unfortunately I can't seem to find the raw text easily available (for free) to see how he validated it.
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Ultimately people are trying to quantify a very very noisy thing (human fitness and training load), and it is very possible that of the various approaches (hours, kilojoules, TSS, complex combinations of heart rate and power) all do exactly as well as one another, or, to the extent that one is better than another it would be extremely hard to measure the difference, as you would need large sets of carefully collected, accurate data across many years. Very few people collect their data accurately and carefully enough to begin with.


There's a difference between things that measure stress / training loads and those that measure adaptation response / training outcomes. People are confusing the two.
Last edited by: Watt Matters: Jul 7, 14 17:40
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [toolbox] [ In reply to ]
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toolbox wrote:
Don't entice him mort he's the power nonbeliever troll

One can believe that power is a useful tool without giving credence to the predictive capabilities of virtual metrics.
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
I would expect TT events to be so however, I will ask him if he looked at TTs only. Perhaps there are not enough of them per cyclist to draw any conclusions.
I think the problem is how do you compare TTs of different durations? Clearly of the durations studied, only 20 mins is going to be relevant for most TTs. But what if I perform really well in one TT and it only takes me 19 minutes, and my 20 minute power includes a minute of trundling along after the finish? Another time, I'm less fit and it takes me 20 minutes, but this time my 20 minute power is higher because it doesn't include the minute after the finish. And what if I ride a 100 mile TT and I'm in the form of my life but of course my 20 minute power will not be impressive.

The thing is, if we take the argument that CTL has no predictive power to its extreme, we would have to believe that training has no effect, i.e. someone with a CTL of 0 performs the same as a trained athlete. As I'm not aware that there are any untrained athletes winning Olympic gold medals in aerobic endurance events, this argument seems rather implausible.
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
I think the problem is how do you compare TTs of different durations?

If you are looking at ones in the 20 minute to 1.5 hour range you can do a pretty good job of figuring that out with various power duration models.

Thinking about this stuff today I stumbled on this article which was really interesting:

http://physfarm.com/new/?page_id=995



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Steve Irwin wrote:

I think the problem is how do you compare TTs of different durations?


If you are looking at ones in the 20 minute to 1.5 hour range you can do a pretty good job of figuring that out with various power duration models.
Yes, what I meant was within the stated framework where only 20 minute duration was looked at. I don't see how you can just blindly pick a duration and try to gauge level of performance from it.

As an example, one of the durations I have on my PMC is 38 minute power. That is a carefully chosen number that picks up most of my max effort performances in the range 38 minutes to 50 minutes. 3 laps of the local park takes around 46 minutes. A fast 25 mile TT takes 49-50 minutes. A local "sporting" TT takes around 42 minutes. But the reason it has to go down to 38 minutes is because the 25 mile TT course in Wales has a downhill section and it takes me 38 minutes to get from the bottom of that to the finish. So if I use any longer than 38 minutes on my PMC, the freewheeling down the hill would be included, and I would never produce good power from those TTs when in fact they are major target events for me. So for me, 38 minutes is a good duration to pick, and does tend to result in a reasonable indicator of my level of performance. But it's still not perfect, I can do a PB for 2 x 20 on the turbo, for example, and it won't show up on my PMC at all.

Other people might ride different courses and tend to do max efforts over different durations, so one set of durations isn't going to work for everyone. I also use 15 minute power rather than 20 minute power, again because it picks up one lap max efforts of the local park as well as 10 mile TTs.
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [Watt Matters] [ In reply to ]
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Watt Matters wrote:
There's a difference between things that measure stress / training loads and those that measure adaptation response / training outcomes.

Shorter, Watt Matters: it is called training stress score and not training performance score for a reason.*

*A point I have been making on various web fora for ~10 y now.
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [roady] [ In reply to ]
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roady wrote:
One can believe that power is a useful tool without giving credence to the predictive capabilities of virtual metrics.

There is nothing "virtual" about CTL, ATL, or TSB. For that matter, there is nothing "virtual" about TSS itself.
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Thinking about this stuff today I stumbled on this article which was really interesting:

http://physfarm.com/new/?page_id=995

You (and Phil) are late to the party, Jack.
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
roady wrote:
One can believe that power is a useful tool without giving credence to the predictive capabilities of virtual metrics.


There is nothing "virtual" about CTL, ATL, or TSB. For that matter, there is nothing "virtual" about TSS itself.


You stopped using Gizmo Power <TM> to calculate TSS? Sorry, I missed that--hadn't been paying attention! Anyway, I don't have the time or inclination for (another) 300 response thread. Carry on!
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
roady wrote:
One can believe that power is a useful tool without giving credence to the predictive capabilities of virtual metrics.


There is nothing "virtual" about CTL, ATL, or TSB. For that matter, there is nothing "virtual" about TSS itself.

I guess the 'virtual' here equals to a virtual representation of the physological status. I guess it would be possible to create a PMC by taking biopsies and other tests every day and thus have a 'real' chart, in tune with what is actually going on, but that would be crazy. Thus 'virtual'.

PS pls gief WKO4.

Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede
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Re: Measures of training stress in cyclists - Study [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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You can't just have a secret party at home, not invite anyone, and then declare us late =)

Andrew Coggan wrote:
jackmott wrote:
Thinking about this stuff today I stumbled on this article which was really interesting:

http://physfarm.com/new/?page_id=995

You (and Phil) are late to the party, Jack.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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