^^ This. It is not just that WTC puts on good races that determines if they are good for the sport. It is how they affect the sport that determines that.

Dev brought up the Road to Kona program "To all the guys hating on Messick, this is also the same guy that offered the road to Kona to 12x finishers who are not 'fast enough'. We don't need to like everything he does, but that was one of the first things he did at the helm."

Call me cynical , but this is not about being nice to loyal customers (although it might have a side benefit for some), this is about quashing competition. This is their way of convincing the people who have no chance of qualifying for Kona to still keep doing IM races instead of Challenge, Rev3, Beach2Battleship, Mooseman etc. If there is no chance of people getting into Kona, there is no reason to solely do WTC events. Messick has also stated that there is room at Kona for more athletes, but the issue is how many of the same speed come out of the water at the same time and ride at the same time. So they can fill in slower times of the race and convince people to not race their competition's races for essentially no additional cost. If memory serves me correct, it was also timed roughly along with Rev3's big money entrance into the race scene with big large scale events

I see this as similar to the Pro points system which really emphasizes that the pros race almost exclusively at WTC events. They might not want (or feel the need/economic incentive) to pay the pros more, but they apparently need them at Kona and want them focusing on Kona and WTC events to keep their self proclaimed 'World Championship" relevant and keep it as their draw for all the bucket listers.

If I was an investor, I'd love them for this, but that hardly is the same as "being good for the sport"

Also, saying that what WTC has done in the past has been good for the sport (it certainly would not be where it is without IM and Kona) does not mean that what they are doing now is still good for the sport.

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"Some folks plan for the optimum race, others like to get upset when others out plan them. "

+1

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

Andrew, you seem to have taken the IMLP stunt way too personally. Which suggests that this is "all about you." Would your VP of Operations have threatened the triathlon group with bodily harm if they had chalked this (instead of cheers for their friends)?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the ITU given Kona its blessing to be called the Ironman World Championship? If that is the case, then it wouldn't be "self proclaimed".

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

you know, i'm sure this doesn't phase you in the least but i'm going to put it out there anyway. i really never "got" the whole Evil Empire thing and have been watching Kona since the late 70's. i'm an old fart. I had hopes of KQ'ing and bringing my 80yo parents to see me. I live in a country where WTC is the only game in the entire country for a full IM and AFAIK there is only 1 non WTC HIM in the country. I've done IMCOZ and the half since they came to Mexico.

your response here and the action of your employee really leave a very bad taste in my mouth. adding on Mr. Edwards emails and I've decided that regardless of the fact that i have no other options than WTC in my country to participate in full IM, I will not be going to Cozumel in November. I love that race. the entire island comes out and it is the best supported race in teh world (yeah, my n=1 is not very scientific. :))

from from this old mom who really doesn't get worked up about much, your response in this thread has really made me no longer want to give your company money. i'll go down to Guatemala or over to an unnamed island and participate there. i really don't expect this to make any difference - you guys have sell out events and mexico is in love with the events. but i'll bet i'm not alone.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

Jordan and I round about talked along these lines in Calgary. I think that ITU has a really good system for qualification as well as prize money. So, I think that WTC should start with that model even though I do not think that is the inclination. These are my general comments, likely to show up in a blog at one point. WTC, in part, has allowed us to be professional triathletes for the better part of 6-8 years. I've posted before that I am about triathlon, and I'm not WTC vs. Rev3 vs. Challenge. And, further to show how WTC has a role in a lot of pro lives, our two title sponsors have been indirectly because of the IM Brand. I coached before I was a pro, so I have maintained that and it has provided more 'dependable' income. So, regarding your above comments, this is my opinion.

- ITU has a more equitable and deeper prize money structure. i am in favor of this simply because most pros who have sponsorship also have a bonus structure that takes care of them for wins. So, a $25k for 1st at IMMT and a $12.5k for 2nd with money ending at 8th might be $12.5k for 1st with money going to 20th under an ITU type structure. While this is better for more athletes, I know that a lot of the top athletes are not in favor of this. But, the upside of ITU is also that there is a real payout to a lot of athletes based on season ending rankings as part of their bonus pool. That's cool.

- I think that the Conti, World Cup, World Triathlon, Grand Finale system is a good one. That is kind of how WTC sets things up now, but there is no rhyme nor reason to how athletes sign up for races. See my above for bonuses to get at least an idea of why some headliners are at small races. But, if there were a way to either a) assign a quality of field multiplier to events or b) make sure 'developmental' athletes and 'headliner' athletes are not competing at smaller races it would never work. Again, the system as it is now is made that way.

- BIG prize money is needed. No one really gives a rats @$$ about who wins a $25k race. I might, some people on this board might, sponsors might. And maybe a $25k IM should 'only' be for certain athletes. But then the race director gets pissed because his race gets shorted headliners. Is that better than NO pro field at all? I don't know. BUT, Kona is our flagship. It 'only' has $650k TOTAL. Not for the win, but for the entire race. $650k is NOT on any major media outlet period. BIG money races or Bigger money at races or for first kind of legitimizes the sport.

But again, we've got 2 pro ambassadors and a bunch of other loose cannons running around! Herding cats.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Other people stipulating what the 800lb gorilla proclaims does not change who proclaimed it. Especially since ITU is newer than the Ironman race in Hawaii. ITU has also never said that Kona is the long distance World Championship. Kona is only the WTC/Ironman 140.6 World Championship. ITU merely agreed to what they really have no power to stop.

I liken it to the "World Series" in baseball. When was the last time there was a Cuban or Japanese team in it? Baseball is also an olympic sport with a world governing body, but that doesn't stop MLB from having their own championship.

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"Some folks plan for the optimum race, others like to get upset when others out plan them. "

I never really took sides in the WTC situation, but his OP has caused me to side with the anti-WTC crowd. I really have no opinion the pro pay scale mainly because I'm not educated enough in the topic to form a decisive opinion. However, I am a consumer and I do work hard for my money, thus I prefer to spend it with company's that shares that respect. AM came to ST to basically poke fun at a consumer movement. This is an action I would expect from a company like Comcast or Bank of America. Companies that embrace their reputations for having horrid customer service.

I know WTC doesn't care that people say they won't race WTC again. The races still sell out. Thus the reason AM can come on ST and make a mockery of our sport. I was really looking forward to IM Wisconsin or IMLV being my first full ironman event. Now I will shift my focus to something like REV3 Cedar Point.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

I agree - Road to Kona wasn't designed to thank those participants that have done a dozen or more races, but to tempt the participants that have done 1 or a few to keep coming back and spending their money on WTC races. Makes for a nice mid-term financial strategy. They were also pretty smart by limiting the number of slots; if it gains popularity, the number of races required to get those slots is actually going to increase as a waiting list starts to form. 12 races is the stated minimum, but the realistic minimum could build up to 15-16 in a few years as more people do it. It won't take long for it to be hard to get a Road to Kona slot, too.

I like to think rather than being anti-everything-I-don't-like, I try to be pro-everything-I-like. I won't hate on the WTC for their success in this industry, but I don't like it when the 800 pound gorilla acts like an 800 pound gorilla. I will continue to support the smaller organizations - last year was my last WTC event. We've got so many great choices out there, if we just look beyond the brand name. Rev3, HITS, Toughman, Challenge, and many more one-off non-"brand name" races are all great options that give us, as consumers, choices.

I don't mind being the one triathlete I know who isn't an Ironman (tm) or trying to be one. I probably never will be one, and I'm OK with that. Heck, I might even try some of that crazy draft-legal stuff if it catches on...

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

Well said Brandon.

Thanks Brandon, I'm on the same page with you.

BTW, to be fair, ITU athletes are also bitching about the cost and the lack of money...

Not everybody is going to be happy about a restructure but at the same time, the system is not fair right now. I was talking with a Pro trying to qualify for Kona last week. Racing in Zurich (strong field) was so different than racing in Lake Placid or Whistler... Anyway, you know all this...

AND YES! there is also to have a better system for competitive athletes... It would be create to create an handicap system... so people can qualify for different highly competitive races.... Golf is doing this and the best amateur can qualify for Grand Slam...

As a media, I can say that the worst move from WTC is to have kill the live webcast.. putting even more emphasis on Kona. I'm feeling bad because it became even harder to give exposure to the pros.

Sometimes, I have the feeling that Ironman don't want to gain in popularity, they are just searching for upper class...

 Sometimes, I have the feeling that Ironman don't want to gain in popularity, they are just searching for upper class...
__ //

What they want is for you and brandon and jordan and every other pro to keep going to their races for peanuts and points. And so far it is working beautifully. The upper class will keep coming as long as their races have some juice, so keep selling them your juice for those precious points and they will be quite happy..

+ 100

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Website
Contact me for Huub and Falco Discounts

Bingo!

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Ive tried your way with WTC on anti-doping. They don't listen, even with a lot of constructive voices. Marsh, Rapp And Crowie arent kicking WTC in the crotch because that's their lunch money. I wouldn't go on twitter and bitch about my boss. I like my paycheck. But with WTC I AM A CUSTOMER. I get to complain if I don't like what I see, and if they want my (as an example) business or the business of those I influence, they need to be responsive. They don't think they need to be. But clearly their expansion of 70.3 and IM is diluting their fields, and the time is coming quickly when they will need to be. And when that time comes Messick and Co will quickly be out of jobs.

now this shit is funny...

I hope your reading all these MR CEO.

I hear what you are saying, however, let's think through this backwards to the point you/I/we want to affect change at WTC. We can't change everything they do instantly. Barry Siff and I discussed "paying it forward" and building some equity with whomever we want to influence so we can withdraw from the balance we build up.

Before we can influence anyone, in any realm of life, usually we need to work to the point that we can affect change. Too often, guys pile on WTC, or a manufacturer, or a hotel, or city officials, or some other entity in our sport when things are broken. That's the natural human thing to do. Pile on when something is broken and expect it to get fixed magically. There are battles to pick and times to pick those battles.

Several times per year, I give WTC or their local race organizers, inputs on how to improve events. I provide them details on what was good and not so good about the user experience. I make suggestions on minor modifications that might make their business better while also benefiting us consumers. Often they dismiss my input and usually explain their constraints that I may not be aware of. Sometimes, they can make the tweaks. As a frequent purchaser of their product, they have a stake in listening to my input. I use my own name, not an anonymous name. Every event I race, I could like 100 things that can be fixed or are broken, but 100 battles are not worth picking. Better to pick on a few items that will make a lot of consumers much happier. That helps their bottom line.

Last weekend we have >4000 people spread between Whistler and Lake Placid giving them $$$. After i finished IM Whistler, almost everyone was beaming from what we generally good experience. WTC already got a fairly detailed email from me on what i thought was good and what could be better. Hopefully they take some of that input to improve the event. If they don't, it could be because they don't care about some of my points, or they physically cannot, or they are parking them in queue to revisit later.

So perhaps they did not listen to you, because you jumped right to the top of the heap and took on anti doping, before you provided input on the number of porta potties at a race, or the lack of carpeting on 130F tarmac in T2 or poor aid station placement or the congestion in the change tent in T1. I don't know what you did to help them improve their business before you took on the anti doping problem and what more you want them to do. Or how many of their races you do (I know Air Canada listens to me because I am a 100K user and takes my input more seriously than someone who flies 1x per year). When is the last time you did a WTC event?

I can just say that they listen to some degree. Not always, and perhaps not on all the topics that I/we want change. But as Barry Siff suggested, "help people when they don't need your help, then they will listen to you when you need their help". (sorry Barry if you are reading and I misquoted you , but you know what I mean).

In my business, I tend to help my customers more who are collaborative and want to help me succeed in my business while benefiting from my product and support.

In my career, a majority of my work is relationship building and maintaining. When I got into the anti-doping aspect of racing, I didn't "attack" WTC, I asked questions, I educated myself, then I pointed out deficiencies, suggested improvements. Even the questions, it turns out, they didn't want to answer. And their bringing in Armstrong showed exactly what they think of the need for anti-doping (for show, not that they want to actually catch people).

Your point about porta potties is like saying I have to first discuss the work the janitor does before I discuss the work the CEO does. Or like saying I need to evaluate the workers in the womens department before I take the guy to task for not providing service to me in the mens department. That simply doesn't make sense.

The individual race day experience at most races for WTC is probably pretty good, mostly because of the hard work of the RD and the crapload of volunteers WTC pulls in with their on-site registration ploy. The problems are at a much higher level and thats where they need to be addressed. By trying to help them see the issues with their anti-doping and support of pros, I clearly had their best intentions in mind, and if they took two seconds to look past the $ of the situation, they'd see that, but as a for profit company they've decided they want to be Walmart and not Market Basket.

Say Baaah and piss off to where you came from bitch.

Don't get me a wrong I respect the hell out of Pro's - it's a tough way to make a living for the vast majority. I get the desire for more prize money; in another life-time I was a "pro", albeit at the bottom end. I gave it up in the end as there was no way I was going to make a decent living but it was a fun few years and I wouldn't trade the experience.

However I've yet to see any valid reason for WTC to start paying more prize money, though I do agree with the suggestions they'd be better served to consolidate the prize money into a smaller number of races rather than spread it too thin. Look at Tennis and Golf as an example. Decent prize money at the big events. Why .... well they attract 10's of thousands of paying spectators and millions of TV viewers world wide. Without the big stars there wouldn't be millions of TV viewers so they pay big money to attract them.

WTC are not perfect and sure there's opportunities to tweak the current system but that's it. There is no way we're going to see substantially increased prize money unless of course someone figures out how to get TV to start paying big $$ to broadcast triathlon which in turn drives the sponsors who want the exposure. As I said before IM is an insanely dull sport to watch for the average Joe public so it's stuck as a minor fringe sport.

For the majority of Pro's, Triathlon is and always will be a "lifestyle" decision. No way can they rely on big prize money and sponsorship's, the best they can do is get out there and develop a bunch of additional income streams to supplement any prize money and sponsorship's.

I am unbelievably sick of this. Do you think a Cuban or Japanese team would have the slightest chance against the World Series champion? Do you think a Samoan or Canadian team would have a chance of less than a 60-point spread against the Super Bowl champions? The champions of those two events are the best in the world at what they do, without question. World champions.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Congrats, Rachel. Looks like TRS hit the jackpot with you taking 7th place. Best of luck to Team Jastrebsky, I will be pulling for all of you.

thank you! everyone has been so nice :)

It's a bummer. I say it too much here but it's the best course of that distance almost anywhere. But I signed up once 3 months in advance. If WTC owned it would be sold out way faster. And everyone would complain that it's not flat and fast. And you'd probably have to pay for your brick...which would have the Ironman logo on it. And Josh would still destroy everyone. (Though I WOULD like to seem him go head to head the actual Starky there...)

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willmillertriathlon.blogspot.com

Let my lone voice join this sentiment. I am beginning to lay out my race plans for next year. Princeton, Eagleman, and Maryland have been taken off the list of possibilities. I was wavering on WTC for next season to begin with, but the OP's posts combined with the details of the chalk-gate incident have sealed it. I'm going with other options.