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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [TheRealStarky] [ In reply to ]
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TheRealStarky wrote:
waskier wrote:
Can't say I exactly agree with your approach. Just saw the pictures from Twitter. I seem to remember some music awards show where Taylor Swift was onstage accepting an award and Kanye West stepped on stage, took the mic and started some rant about how the award should have gone to someone else who deserved more recognition. Seems to me that is what you were doing.

I have no problem if you want to give more things to someone because you think they deserve it. Want 7th to get more? Pony up for a burrito and bottle of water at Chipotle and give them all the cash that's left. Good on ya. But jumping into someone else's stage that they've paid a lot of money and invested a lot of time to put together and taking the spotlight away? Just doesn't seem quite right.


Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.

I wouldn't quite call a Twitter parody account with 5,000 followers a wolf but you do what you have to do...
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [CEOIronman] [ In reply to ]
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Not to derail this thread, as I do think that some very valid criticisms of the Kona qualification system and the purses at ironman brand events have been raised, but, while we have your ear . . .

I find it incomprehensible that the decision to start the swim was made given what the radar looked like. That decision speaks volumes about WTCs attitude toward their clientele - both pros & AG athletes. You put EVERYONE involved with that race at risk by deciding to start that swim.

It is standard practice to delay events for dangerous lighening storms given the risk posed. By ignoring this risk and starting that race, given the storm that was swiftly moving in, you sent a message loud and clear about where your priorities are.

Just for reference, look at page 26 of the NJISSA coaches handbook:

http://www.njsiaa.org/.../CoachesHandbook.pdf

With an event this large and given the fickle weather at Lake Placid, that you did not have a contingency plan in place to keep athletes, volunteers and their families safe, speaks volumes about where WTCs priorities lie.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [Jmath] [ In reply to ]
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Jmath wrote:
I think miniature golf might have a similar payout to WTC triathlon, http://www.dpalumni.com/...ig-in-miniature-golf

Good news is that at least laser tag hasn't surpassed it.


Wow. I guess that reinforces my point. Any conceivable competition has prize money. The fact that some people on here are even debating it is baffling to me.

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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [HKoldtimer] [ In reply to ]
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I'm simply astounded as as to why anyone thinks WTC should pay Pro's more prize money.

I think that the collective see the WTC as half-assing the pro prize purse. If you're going to have a pro race with a pro prize purse, then really put forth a package that will attract talent. Make it worth their while to the pros to travel to the race and compete. If not, then why even bother with a pro race?

I think the pros are kinda sending this unorganized message with their showings at IMLP and IMC. Not to rag on the guys and gals that did show up, the talent and depth at IMLP wasn't there. IMC had talent with no depth, as per Andrew's OP. The 7th place (and 8th place mens) finishers barely made enough to warrant traveling to the race and competing. Same at IMLP.

It would be nice that the leader of long course triathlon actually made it seem like they want the pros to go to a race, compete, and put on a show. Right now, the WTC is demonstrating that they clearly don't care who shows up to races like IMLP or IMC. And I think that's the with which attitude we have issues. Why have a pro package and not actually care about the pros in your race?






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [HKoldtimer] [ In reply to ]
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If you want to understand the Messick Logic...

From a really great interview by Scott Tinley here http://www.trihistory.com/...sick-ironman-history...
ST: Because of the increased levels of performance, sacrifices, and costs, has this (ability to offer transformation) changed in recent years? Certainly the (economic) demographics of Ironman competitors have risen.
AM: No, I don't think so. I think that the price of an Ironman has always been extremely low relative to the costs.
ST: Can you be more specific?
AM: What you pay for a registration is a tiny portion of the true cost of doing an Ironman. And the true costs relate to your sacrifices at work, your sacrifices to your family, and what it costs to get up at five in the morning to train...It's more the type of people we attract are the type that typically succeed at what they put their minds to...They hold the core values of what it takes to succeed: hard work, perseverance, effort.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Not only have a pro race but encourage pros to race your brand through KPR and not care about them at all.

JT Multisport | Facebook | Instagram | World Sport Coach
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev, I agree with most of your points, not every race can have a large prize purse. Interesting how no one is mentioning the 125k prize purse in Tremblant in 3 weeks...http://www.usatriathlon.org/~/media/e412b23818084064997c454a7f1e5cc0.ashx
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Agree, big PR blunder here. If 'CEOIronman' really is Andrew M, he has made a very big mistake by not taking this opportunity to openly engage with his customers. Some savy and early PR work could have taken the thunder completely away from the famous trio DarkMark, RealStarky and Pay10Deep. Instead they have given Starky a platform and many followers.

However in saying this, IMLP continue to fill in hours.. so the masses really don't care, they just want their IM bucket list completed and tattoo. Amusing sideshow to sit back and watch here and on twitter.

The 'IM VP chalk' email thread was quite shocking and will definitely have an impact on my product choice going fwd. Not that I won't do another IM branded race, just that I will consider alternatives. Not that it really matters.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [CEOIronman] [ In reply to ]
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CEOIronman wrote:
Besides IMLP, last Sunday was IM Canada, a race with a $75k pro prize purse that paid 8 deep. We had 8 male pro finishers and 7 female pro finishers. Every pro finisher got a check. And for the women, there was no one to give the 8th place check to.

Over the past few weeks, hundreds of us have given thoughtful and serious discussion about this issue because we love the sport and we care about its future. And your response is to dismiss all of that with a couple of jokes and then leave?

You fucking arrogant prick.

Go back to running your company into the ground; it is a scourge on triathlon and you don't deserve a role in the sport. I've not only done my last wtc race, but am also certain you've just stoked a fire you're not going to put out.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
Dev, I agree with most of your points, not every race can have a large prize purse. Interesting how no one is mentioning the 125k prize purse in Tremblant in 3 weeks...http://www.usatriathlon.org/~/media/e412b23818084064997c454a7f1e5cc0.ashx

For a World Championship, it's not really very much money.

It's equal to 7% of the Darts World Championship, which offers ~$1.7 million as its prize purse.

It's also less than Horseshoe pitching and a bunch of other random sports with a much smaller participation market.

Of course, this is what happens when a private company is charged with 'developing' the sport.

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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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Bingo! So LP didn't pay. So what? Been advertised that way for 12 months. There's a $125,000 race advertised for 12 months 3 weeks later only a few hours up the road. There was a race same day that paid 8 deep & 8 didn't show up. Other than Andrew poking the bear (gorilla) there's nothing to see here that the pros don't bring on themselves .... Ie: they didn't support Rev 3; they don't really get behind Challenge .... I mean, this is economics 101. I want the pros to make money, I want there to be long term viability for them but, like ASO in cycling, WTC controls market as a for profit company. Like any business, fine lines always drawn between how ugh can we make on the market we are in.

2015 will see change. Andrew has stated that. Less pro races allowing more pay as they take their current spread out pool of cash into championship races.

@rhyspencer
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting how no one is mentioning the 125k prize purse in Tremblant in 3 weeks...//

Not really that interesting, as it is billed as the north american championship, but has average money at best. You can peruse around here and find lots of just regular races with equal or even more prize money. That is why no one is talking about the money, it does not live up to the stature of the race they are claiming to put on there..
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
Will be interesting to see what they roll out next. What I'm hearing is less races with a pro purse and points. So a lot of amateur only IM's. My guess is that this may make 2nd tier pros start looking for other options. They are out there, but a lot of pros seem to be ignoring them with the idea that they have some shot at Kona. The truth is maybe 20 of the 50 have a shot at top 10 and maybe 4-5 have a shot to win. Otherwise it is just a very expensive training vacation for the rest of them.

Its not that they feel they have a shot at top 10, but rather Kona is where all the better sponsorship deals get started.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [davegraham] [ In reply to ]
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davegraham wrote:
Agree, big PR blunder here. If 'CEOIronman' really is Andrew M, he has made a very big mistake by not taking this opportunity to openly engage with his customers. Some savy and early PR work could have taken the thunder completely away from the famous trio DarkMark, RealStarky and Pay10Deep. Instead they have given Starky a platform and many followers.

However in saying this, IMLP continue to fill in hours.. so the masses really don't care, they just want their IM bucket list completed and tattoo. Amusing sideshow to sit back and watch here and on twitter.

The 'IM VP chalk' email thread was quite shocking and will definitely have an impact on my product choice going fwd. Not that I won't do another IM branded race, just that I will consider alternatives. Not that it really matters.

Way to stick to your guns!!!

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Explain to me then why pros would chose Lake Placid over Tremblant knowing 12 months in advance what the price purse is. Options are there....
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
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Is that an IM tattoo I see in your nice pics?
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [ In reply to ]
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These threads are always very interesting to observe. The peanut gallery can really criticize a company that has had phenomenal success under the current leadership. Criticize (not you specifically, but but the ST community at large) all you want, but they deliver a great product that satisfies a growing customer base better than anyone else in the industry, which is why they continue to be so successful from a business point of view.

Now, are there things that I/we/pros/any of us don't like/prefer/would do different? Of course. And, I am no suck up to them and always give them my candid feedback when asked . . . just like other business where I spend my money. In fact, they probably use this more than you would think to continue "sharpening their saw." WTC leadership is very smart and they have been very successful. Personally, I think they deliver a great product. And, they respond to issues and innovate - I certainly would never have thought of a rolling start. I consider myself to be a very loyal customer and literally can't wait until my next opportunity to enjoy their product.

I just returned from Challenge Roth - absolutely incomparable experience . . . off the charts! I loved it! No doubt I'll do it again (for a 7th time). A close friend was asking me to compare that to IM. I said you can't, b/c they are different in culture and execution. A small example - the medals really aren't that good - man, would you hear a stink on ST if it were IM. But, I never heard a word about it. It is culturally different. Kinda like some days I eat fish, and others I eat chicken. I can come up with pros and cons of each but I enjoy both.

However, a big difference is the ability replicate. IM has been able to replicate their model extraordinarily well (despite what we say here). That is not an easy thing to do across 6 continents (I think) and over so many races. IM races are not easy to execute and yet they have seemed to be able to use their template across cultural lines in ways that would make most corporations very envious. That is impressive and unmatched.
-

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
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Actually that is for the Ironman, the Worlds 70.3 WC have 250k...
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [JKoslov] [ In reply to ]
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I think he's a positive dude. With deep roots in the most basic "why" of endurance sports and equally deep roots within the corporate world. I think a TRS / Babbitt competitor radio podcast could be pretty amazing. Funny, insightful and potentially constructive. //

Ya Bob could be considered the Pope of triathlon. He has been around since forever, been knee deep in every decision every made about the sport, and he has empathy for all sides that seem to be at odds here. IF he had any kind of holding back, or leaning towards because he was working for the man these past years, i never saw it, and no that he no longer works for the man, he is free to let his freak flag fly!!!


I would love to hear an interview with TRS and Bob, and bet he would love to do it.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [davegraham] [ In reply to ]
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davegraham wrote:
Is that an IM tattoo I see in your nice pics?

No, I don't have any tatoos. My tri club gives out temporary tatoos of our logo for us to use on race day.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
Explain to me then why pros would chose Lake Placid over Tremblant knowing 12 months in advance what the price purse is. Options are there....

The "pros" didn't. You had a few people that are either beginner pros or Elite Amateur types that not many people have ever heard of racing.

There reaches a point where just because you can attain your pro card, doesn't mean you should be racing pro.

Of course if you don't take that pro card you have a-holes here on Slowtwitch bitching that they can't podium at their local race because there are too many fast amateurs....
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [david] [ In reply to ]
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It's all about critical mass in participation. WTC delivers on big fields. Challenge Roth has a big field. A large part of the awesome experience of these events is the magnitude. Lots of participants mean lots of spectators and a generally spectacular show. Now, that's not all to putting on a good event, but it is a large part of it. Plenty of companies can execute on a well-produced race, but with 200-700 in the field, the experience is diminished. You put 2500 people at Beach to Battleship or Great Floridian and you'd similarly have a great race. You put 200 people at IM Malaysia and you do not have a race that people fawn over.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
Explain to me then why pros would chose Lake Placid over Tremblant knowing 12 months in advance what the price purse is. Options are there....

Because if you're a new guy/ gal in the sport, you have a better chance at winning some cash, any cash, if less of the big guns show up. Especially when the purse pays only 7 or 8 deep and the lower peeps on getting a check barely make enough to cover gas money, food, and lodging. If you're the 8th place guy/ gal at the IMMT, you get (what?) $2000. Let's say you have the capability to do this once a month, which equates to $24,000 a year before taxes, or near the poverty line if you have any children. And, that's for the people who actually get paid and are good enough to get 8th place in 12 races throughout the year. And don't destroy themselves in the process.

Here's what needs explaining to me:
Why would 15 of the top pros even show up to IMMT knowing that half of them won't make a dime from their efforts?

I can't imagine being a new pro and heading out to a race that I trained my ass off for many months and years with a high probability that I won't get any money or on the outside chance that I did win something it'll barely be enough to pay my mortgage. I think the better solution for the pros is cutting the purse from several of the events, pooling the resources, paying more, to a deeper field.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
Explain to me then why pros would chose Lake Placid over Tremblant knowing 12 months in advance what the price purse is. Options are there....

At least 2 reasons:
- IMMT is a regional championship. I can guarantee you that some of the athletes on the IMLP looked at two races and thought 'I have a better chance at a payday or podium at a smaller race'. You're paying 3 deeper at a regional championship than at IMLP, so that figures in to it.
- Some pros likely entered IMLP with the 'hope' of getting into Kona in the first round...without really looking to see if it were possible.

We'll be asking the same questions about athletes who chose to race Muskoka instead of 70.3 Worlds for instance. Yeah, worlds has 15x the money, but it only goes to 10th. Do you know how hard 10th at 70.3 worlds is going to be? After 3rd or 5th most bonuses are gone. So, some will look at Muskoka and say I can with and get bonuses or hope to finish 10th at worlds.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
A large part of the awesome experience of these events is the magnitude. Lots of participants mean lots of spectators and a generally spectacular show.

Agree, and that's why IMLP is so great. I've spectated there twice, and it's the volume of people racing and spectating that make it awesome - not that it's better run than other smaller races. It's within driving distance of the entire northeast, so you get a much different atmosphere than other races that sell out - like Arizona for example - which has nowhere near the atmosphere LP does.

WTC's success has nothing to do with their competency as race directors and event organizers, it has to do with their right to use 'Ironman'. I've been far more impressed with local races like Pumpkinman and Musselman than any WTC race I've done. But when bucket-listers want to sign up for an event, they google ironman, and it's no surprise what they sign up for.

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