I didn't misunderstand you. I misunderstood what point bermudabill was still questioning. I thought that the force issue was granted (by him), and the open question (for him) was wattage.

Anyway, I think we all agree that it doesn't take much to be a 'pro' for a few seconds. Doing it for hours is another matter entirely.

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Michael

I think that you are the one mischaracterizing things here.

When it comes to trained cyclists, the "many cites" to which you refer consist of only one study (other than the yet-to-be-published paper(s) by the review's authors, that is), which is Sunde et al.

In contrast, several studies both cited by Aagard and Andersen (e.g., Bastiaans et al.) and suprisingly ignored by them (e.g., Bishop et al.) have failed to show any performance benefit.

Thus, even in the most charitable light the best one can say is that the jury still seems to be out...

Indeed, you could easily make the argument that this paper represents the prior (original) publication, such that the various in-press and under review articles should never be published. Given the lack of detail in the review, though, that would certainly create even more problems.

Whoa is right: the E and E+S groups start in different places, but end up being essentially the same.

Thus, one interpretation of the results is that the data reflect a type I error, i.e., the E+S subjects weren't as fit as the E subjects coming into the study, and hence improved as a result of the E training, not the +S training.

The above would fit with the fact that the E+S subjects had a measurable number of type IIX fibers initially (cf. Fig. 4), which were converted to type IIA, whereas no changes were seen in the E group (the data from which are strikingly omitted the review).

My GAWWWWWWD!!!! what is the discussion about!?!?! if you think squats work for you, do them. If you dont, dont. Am I missing something here? As a marathoner for over 30 years I can NEVER recall a message board for runners that debates the innane as much as this group. Everyone is different. Clearly running like a Kenyan does not work for everyone. We should not ALL be running barefoot, and if you think beta alanine works for you, take it. The bottom line is working out is better than not working out. There. Settled. Its like parliament. Or worse...congress!

Having said all that. Continue. I am quite enjoying the arguments. But I do wonder, Max...how many squats were you doing when you were blowing sub 10 ironman races?

This is one of the most often quoted reasons for doing things, and I think it's probably one of the worst. Everyone is NOT different. In fact, it is a MUCH truer statement for me to say "Everyone is the same," than for you to say, "Everyone is different." In fact, it is our sameness that makes us all humans. The belief that we are all "beautiful and unique snowflakes" is a flaw of ego and hubris. You want to hit a golf ball straight and far off a tee? Hit it like Tiger Woods. And if you want to run a fast marathon, train and run like a Kenyan.

You & Gebrsellasie have way, way, way more in common than you have differences.

The biggest difference among people is probably their ability to recognize how UN-special they are.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

You're right. But everyone is a mammal.

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The Triathlon Squad

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According to some of my students, I'm actually a reptile.

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Michael

Wouldn't every pro golfer hit like Tiger then and be the same? As would the runners? How do you account for different performances across professionals? Especially now where the 20 somethings are trying to be like Tiger, you can tell with their swings, but even in most of their soon to be best years, will never be him. What about basketball? You would think most would be like Mike at this point, why aren't they? There are too many subtle differences in humans, especially at the highest levels of any kind of performance (sport or academic, etc...) that we are all different... or at the very least, the best of the best would be the same.

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The Rat Snake:
A Tribute Race at Gilbert Lake State Park, Laurens, NY May 16 2015
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Well, that's quite a delayed effect. I guess nobody picked up on the sarcasm. Oh well.

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

Ahh, I thought this was a thread about "Adverse Possession!"

The biggest difference among people is probably their ability to recognize how UN-special they are.

I like the formulation: "You're unique, just like everybody else" :)

I think it depends on how you look at things. People tend to focus on the one or two things that top pros do differently, rather than focusing on the 99 things that they do the same. Break down every element of the driver swing of every guy on the PGA tour. There will be a few differences. But there will be WAY more similarities than there will be differences. The folly that most people make is thinking that the differences are what is important, rather than realizing it is what is the same which is important.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I am proud of you padwan :)

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Yep, the differences are between the ears, not between the joints!

The difference is between the ears... but we all must understand that that is the biggest difference, that's why we are all NOT the same.

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The Rat Snake:
A Tribute Race at Gilbert Lake State Park, Laurens, NY May 16 2015
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classic ;-)

I find the article intriguing because I LOVE going to the gym and, as an 'old guy' I'm interested in minimizing the muscle loss that occurs with age. If it doesn't hinder, and possibly improves my performance, better still.

A little extra FORCE might help me get around without a cane (or power my wheelchair) in my dotage.

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Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Oops, should have said "<1 min power." I have no allusions that lifting will help my FTP, or even my 5 min power- neither of which are really my weakness. Both 5 min and 1 hour power are highly aerobic. Maximal 15 second power, maximal 30 second power are my weakness when it comes to racing. I have a VO2 well into the 70's, yet my 30 sec power is only 675!

I am trying to remedy this by weight training. We'll see how it works- my maximal power at all durations under 2 minutes were actually higher in 2009, compared with 2010. My FTP was way up in 2010, and most other power values were as well (even 3 hour). I didn't weight train before the 2010 season, but I did before the 2009 season.

We'll see what happens to my 5 sec, 30 sec, 1 minute power in 2011, after weight training this off-season.

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels