Wow, thank you JohnA! I wondered exactly the same thing. What is it with their positions? They strike me as not very powerful, efficient or aerodynamic.

To me, in my opinion, their positions could be improved to increase their aerodynamics and power output.

Look at Craig Walton. Look at Norman Stadler. That is a fast position. Your observation about Reid is good too.

Now before everyone starts with the "positions are highly individual" stuff, well, for our customers they are. It is MUCH harder to fit a recreationsl customer and facilitate their physical/positional limitations than it is to fit a pro. A pro wants to be FAST. They will "meet the position half way" and adapt to a performance oriented position- then they will be faster. For customers you usually have to practice a reasonable compromise of a performance position and a more tolerable, comfort oriented position.

So, given a finite set of dimenions there is ONE optimal orientation of the person on the bike. It is up to the fitter AND the athlete to acheive it.

As you pointed out, I think a lot of pros aren't there yet.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

"Is this fit style a Max Testa trademark, or do these three athletes just happen to have a body type that is best served by a shallow seat tube angle?"

perhaps the most vocal exponent of testa and eric heiden was steve larsen. the irony was that he kept extolling the virtues of his testa fit even after all his tinkering over the period of several months morphed him from "testa" to "FIST." (a fact he only acknowledged after seeing pics of himself on this forum 7 or so months ago).

i don't care if a pro athlete prefers testa or FIST or anything he wants. i'm just gratified when he rides a FIST position, which is what happens more often than not if the rider is body-aware and can remember right-tighty lefty-loosy when turning the allen wrench (not easy for some of these guys).

even more than seat angle, if there is one absolutely paramount rule in tri bike fit, it is that you don't suspend a subject over a bike with a shoulder angle of greater than 90 degrees, or if so only very marginally greater. all you need to do is go out and put a few hundred miles on a tri bike and you'll realize that (i'd encourage some of these expert fitters to actually go out and ride a few 60-milers in their own positions -- might be an eye-opener).

also more important than seat angle is cadence. if testa, or anyone, can get an athlete to produce an average of 90rpm throughout a 56-mile ride on a 74-degree tri bike, i'd have no problem with 74 degrees. but it just doesn't happen. and that's why, all things equal, runs are incrementally slower off shallow bike set-ups.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Being in the Bay Area I'm close enough to Max to see a lot of the same athletes. My company also happens to sponsor a team that is sponsored by UC Davis (where Max is) so I get to work with a lot of athletes Max has worked on. His road fitting is good - traditional European style fitting (eg - with an eyeball). Tri fitting? I'd say not his strongsuit. I've refitted a number of people fitted for tri by Max, normally all of whom are too stretched out and too far back. Nothing against Max - I've done a lot of work with him, and he's great at what his core competency is (testing and physiology), tri is just not his area.

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Christopher Kautz
Director of Technology, Product Development, and Education
GURU Sports, a division of Cannondale Sports Unlimited

I think the positioning differences are best looked at from the perspective of are you a runner or a cyclist? The cyclist doing a tri (Larsen) will start with a rearward position, it feels good after coming from a cycling background and if you are strong enough (Larsen) it works. Then you realize you need to run faster and can't off that position. The more you run better a forward position works. I experienced this when I back into tri 5 years ago. Ten years before as a cyclist (I ran X-C and track in school but road raced in the summer and thought I was a cyclist) I hated the forward position and even raced well without aero bars. When I came back to tri I was mostly running and having to work could not cycle more than 120 mi per week at the most so I ran more and found that not only did the tri positon work better with aero bars but it also just plain worked better. In some local races (sprints) I found that I beat my old times from a decade earlier simply because I ran faster.

I notice that many of the tri heads in my area tend to "drift" towards cycling or running as their main sport. That is they do both but do one more than the other and which way they go tends to determine their bike fit. Also the longer the race and train the more likely they are to go to a less steeep position. I am not saying this is optimal but just what I notice.I would not trade my steep postion, a Cdale with a Thompson no set back post and the saddle pretty far foward for anything.

I think these pro guys know what they are doing. Hell I think Max Testa knows what he is doing. He has worked with some of the sport of cyclings biggest names. He worked with Mapei and Motorola, and was invovled with Gelindo Bordin (Olympic Marathon champion). and has consulted to many of Triathlons and Cyclings greatest champions. It cant be to wrong, Macca is considered the most powerful bike rider in the sport of triathlon, at almost all distances. His LA Triathlon bike record still stands and his performance in San Jose in 2001 was incredible to witness. He rode 51 minutes for the 40km more than 1 minute quicker than walton and over 6 minutes quicker than the rest of the field. I am not sure what he has riden an Ironman in but I am assuming it is pretty quick. He holds the Wildflower course record and tends to win lots of triathlons - including Ironmans with devastating bike performances, and runs very strongly off them.


athletes Testa has worked with:

Lance Armstrong - This guy can ride a bike dont you think?

Gilbeto Simoni - I know this guy rides well.

Steve Larson - Pretty good on a bike

Macca - my thoughts on him are mentioned above

Chris Leito - He rides well aswell dont you think?

Slowman makes a good point on cadence, but coming forward I would think would hinder the effective pedalling action of a cyclist and force a more stomping technique which is grossly inefficient. I just did an experiment of my own on my computrainer and brought my seat forward by 5mm at a time until I came forward almost 2 inches. The further forward i came the more my spin scan worsened and my wattage dropped. just my own personal experiment. The forward seat position works but most triathletes lack lower back flexibilty and hamstring flexiility and are forced to ride in this position. Look at the worlds greatest Timetrial riders. Indurain, Millar, Armstrong and Ulrich. They ride in fairly relaxed positions. They are still a little further forward than their road posion but still significantly behind the bottom bracket. The agreesive seat angles of triathlon bikes work for the masses because most of the masses dont have the flexibilty and efficiency to ride alternate relaxed positions. I could rant and rave on about this for ages, but I have a strong belief that the forward geometry of Tri bikes are the main reason why Triathletes ride inefficiently. They are unstable and out of the saddle their centre of gravity shifts to far infront of the bottom bracket to make acceleration smooth. The use of the quad muscle is more activated in this position. This is a smaller muscle than the glute and will fatigue quicker. This being said, I agree that the forward seat position will suit some riders. But the guys who are looking for addtional power and have the resources to find out what is most effective for them like tend to adopt the more traditional position.

I am of the opinion that if it aint broke dont fix it. Testa works with these guys and they are getting solid results. I know slowman is a big enforcer of the forward position as he was one of the pioneers of this position, but things evolve and maybe these guys are showing that the relxed TT position is the way of the future in Triathlon, like it is in road. They have learned to ride relaxed and run efficiently after it. Lets face it your run is determined by your fatigue after the bike, and if you are more efficient in a relaxed position, then I would think you would run better.

Anyway enough said.

Ed

Your kidding aren't you. Macca has beaten all of these guys. Ok not at Kona but Hea has beaten Stadler reid Walton Hellreigel Larsen and shitloads of others over half and ironman races and you say he's not fast.

Your argument doesn't make sense.

Slowman what is your definition of a 74 degree tri bike. Done 11 ironman races and I ride a c40 with clip ons. It's 74 degrees and if you want to pay for the airfares and accomodation I am happy to come over and ride 56km at an average cadence of over 90. I usually ride 100-105 on the road and 110 on the turbo.

Piece of piss really

Simoni and Armstrong don't count- they are cyclists not triathletes... they don't run off the bike. Lieto and Maca do and it seems to work for them. I agree with Tom, it is hard to spin a gear in the steep position. My cadence (after years of road racing and riding rollers all winter) went from 85-90 to 95-110 in going steep. The steep position takes a year to get used, you can't use your back or butt muscles as much and your aerobic system needs to be in top shape. I hated it but stayed with it and it made a better triathlete. You may be different, we all are...

"The steep position takes a year to get used, you can't use your back or butt muscles as much and your aerobic system needs to be in top shape"

at the risk of pissing off even more people i'd respectfully disagree with you. if you were *properly* positioned you'd feel better than before in 2 weeks and be very ready to race in 6 weeks.

you'd also find spinning much easier on a steeper bike.

keep in mind, tho, that you can tell NOTHING about road cadence from what you're doing on a trainer. there is a computrainer workout i do in which i never go below 105rpm during the entire, high intensity, 45-minute workout. that's almost impossible to do on the road, if riding it time trial style (if it was achievable, others besides lance would be achieving it).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Macca has beaten all of these guys. Ok not at Kona but He has beaten Stadler reid Walton Hellreigel Larsen and shitloads of others over half and ironman races and you say he's not fast."

i don't ever have a problem with disagreement, but i get ornery over being misquoted. go back, reread what i've written, and then post something i've said that's actually true.

yes, macca has beaten all the guys you mention. and they've all beaten him. and they've all pretty much beaten each other. that's because they're all very good athletes. but frankly, macca is physically superior to many or most of them. he's like lothar. on a less demanding course, with lesser competition, they exhibit their immense talent. when it comes to a bigger race, when they're ALL there, and the course and conditions are very tough, the little things you're doing wrong become bigger.

but their is ONE aussie, whom you mentioned above, that has demonstrated that he really IS the fastest rider in the multisport world, and how he rides his bike ought to be studied, it seems to me. why so many of the other aussies stubbornly keep to their backward theories of bike fit is a mystery.

btw, i LOVE macca, he's one of my favorite athletes, he's really talented, and he's also a brand new father. he and emma gave birth to a new 6.4 lbs aussie girl day before yesterday.

i don't like macca's bike position, and from what i understand he's not very happy with me over that. but that's the only thing about him i don't like, and if he is grouchy with me over it, i understand and am sure we'll all somehow survive it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The issue with bike fit isn't how fast a rider you are its how fast a triathlete you are. Everyone needs to forget armstrong, Simoni, et al, they can ride steep per UCI rules.

Certainly the top triathletes would still be on top set up at 74 or 80 degrees, or anything inbetween. The real question is how is the best way to save a few minutes on the bike and not lose any minutes on the run in an ironman? Also, every needs to realize that IM distance is very different that half IM and shorter. You can give up comfort and efficiency in a shorter event, but not in an IM.

Slowman I don't think you can read. I didn't quote you or anyone it was a general comment in relation to the whole thread. My only reference to you was in respect of the cadence and 74 degrees.

Just a question though. If you don't look at Kona who has the best record lately out of all of these guys????? What none of those wins was on a demanding course?????????

"Slowman I don't think you can read. I didn't quote you"

in your original post you wrote of me,

"you say he's not fast"

please, just don't quote me as saying things i didn't say. i never wrote, or said, or implied, that "he's not fast." quite the contrary. he's very fast. he's very talented. he's ambitious, smart, funny, engaging, a hard worker, a good sufferer, and all sorts of very admirable things. i just don't like his bike position.

"Just a question though. If you don't look at Kona who has the best record lately out of all of these guys?????"

of all the guys you brought up in your post, i'd say waldo, and i'd still say waldo regardless of how may question marks you place after your sentence.

but that's not even the point, because waldo doesn't win primarily because of his bike position. a talented guy is going to win a lot of races regardless of his technique or technology. round tubes are not proven faster than aero tubes because hellriegel or holzner rode them to victory. there are all sorts of reasons why one guy beats another guy in any one particular race, and bike position sits somewhere behind talent, fitness, and heart, all of which macca has in spades.

problem is, when you get to the one race where everybody's fit, everybody's peaked, and everybody's there, smaller things like bike position matter a lot more than they did in the races that took place at other times of the year.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I am not pissed off... I agree that I did feel better IMMEDIATELY in the aero position when I went steep. It did take a while before I felt as powerful in that position. Do you think that is unusal?

"It did take a while before I felt as powerful in that position. Do you think that is unusal?"

totally cadence specific. if it took you awhile before you started developing and using a faster cadence, then yeah, that's totally normal. when one recognizes the requirement of pedaling a faster cadence in order to get the most out of a steeper angle, and starts doing so immediately, then within a week or two you'll be demonstrably better off.

but you also use the verb "to feel" and that's a tricky one. using cadence as an example, you don't usually feel as fast when turning a faster cadence, but using a power meter, or even just a watch and a bicycle computer, you can see demonstrated what it is you can't feel.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Short memory slowman. Walto in the last year has dominated the short course races in the USA and he is one of my favourite triathletes. But to his own admission (victory speech in Los Angeles Triathlon 2003) he "was fortunate that Macca has decided to focus on Ironman racing over the past 14 months. Walto has dominated short course racing, but Macca has not done them. I am not inferring that Macca would beat Craig in all these races but Walto has beaten Maca once in the past three years which was Alcatraz 2003. Two weeks later Macca was racing an Ironman so I am assuming he probably lacked the speed necessary to win the race.

I know Macca and Walto are good friends, ad their bike positions are completely different. This being said i disagree with the statement that Walto is the fastest bike rider in the world in Triathlon at present. Without being disrespectful to Waltos amazing ability, i think he has capitalised on the fact that Maccas focus has gone towards Ironman. Hell Walto did Australian Ironman against Macca and was outridden their aswell. They are both great athletes who I admire for their courage and ability but the scales in my book tend to tip towards Macca for sheer power, versatility and bike strength. Just checked out his website and did a quick Eddy count of races they have both gone head to head in over the past 4 years. These numbers might be skewed a little but I have only counted the races I know they were both in and I counted 11 events. Macca won 10 and Walton 1.

As for the talk that, you cant compare Triathletes to cyclists as they dont have to run off the bike, this was the very crux of my argument. Maybe it is us Americans who are caught in this old way of thinking, and the Aussies have built their speed and efficicincy up to a point where they can ride in a more traditional way, generate the power benefits associated with this position (like cyclists do) yet still run fast and effectively from this point. I would not argue against them. It seems they tend to dominate this sport across all distances, and although they have not had an Hawaii Ironman champion for a decade, it would be crazy to assume that because of this single race we can make the assumption that the forward position is the reason.

slowman you state above that when the big guys come together in Hawaii, this is whay Maccas relaxed seat position costs him. it exposes his flores as all the good guys are ready. This is an absurd statement. The guy has raced 5 Ironmans, had two wins and a second and a breakdown in Hawaii. Have you ever assumed that maybe he has arrived at this event tired from a season of heavy racing or he hasnt worked out the distance quite yet. The guy has won major events all around the world including World titles, National titles, World Cup series, World Cup events, Half Ironman titles and big Ironman events. I am sure he would be racing the great athletes in these events aswell and they would be aiming at winning. To assume that because he races in Hawaii and hasnt won it yet that this is a positioning flore is just stupid. He is new to this race and to everyones admission it takes time to work out. Actually this being said at his first race in Hawaii he led off the bike by 9 minutes, lets not forget that. He did break down in the run, but this might not happen the next time and I applaud him for having the gts to attack the race and go for the win. I am amazed at his racing schedule and what this guy does. He races 11 months of the year and has for the past 7 years. (actually most of the Aussies have). He mentions on his website that he believes he may put to much on his plate in a season and is considering a mid season break for the first time in his career this time around so he can prepare for Hawaii fresh and recovered. He has cut back his racing comittments early season. The guy has been doing Ironman for 20 months. Thats it. 20 months. The guys who are racing him are veterans of the distance and experienced at the planning and training involved to prepare for this event. Macca and Mark Allen are two very similar athletes I think. Like Mark, Macca might take some time to work this thing out, but when he does his class, ability and drive will see him do to Ironman what he has done at every other distance he has focused on.....dominate. And he will do it sitting in his relaxed seat position and the Triathlon Traditionalist (which is what most of you here are) will try and think of some other excuse as to how and why he has done what he has done. Thats the thing with these Aussie guys, they just go out their and do it, take the disappointments on the chin, continue to race and push forward towards their goals and ultimately achieve them. They remind me of the golden days of the era of the Americans with Molina, Allen, Scott, Tinley, Glah, Devlin etc etc. They just got on with business and the results speak for themseleves.

I think we expect a lot from Macca because he expects a lot from himself. I met him for the first time in alcatraz in 2001, and have followed his career ever since. He was a down to earth guy with a drive and hunger that was inspiring. He seemed very goal orientated, and absolutely focused on achieveing them. One thing that has stuck with me from that intitial meeting ( I have met him about 10 times since), was i asked him how he thought he would go in this race (Alcatraz). His answer was this. "Just between the two of us, I would love to win by 2 minutes, but if it is only 1 minute I am fine with that." I was taken a back a little by his statement, and i replied by saying, "What about all the guys here, Walton, Whitfield. Are you nervous? His reply again was, "Not really. I love to race the best guys, but just think that this is my time to shine. I want this more than they do." It was not cocky or arrogant but just a firm belief in an athletes ability. He went on to win the race by 1 minute from Walton with Whitfield third. I just thought, Wow. I think we all mis interpret what he says and are always keen to smash him down, because he is vocal about his goals. I think he wants to win Hawaii and am only assuming that if he thought the more forward seat position would ultimately improve his chances at doing this, we would see him adopt this position. That is how focused, disciplined and commtted an athlete I think you are dealing with here.

Ok again enough said by me. I am just a big fan of these guys and believe that maybe the sport is evolving and many of you dont want to accept it and Macca could be at the forefront of it all. I could be wrong, but only history will tell us. From his racing record, I would t bet against him.

[snip]

maybe you're right.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

  Yo Eddy,

I love Macca's Mouth and his athletic accomplishments. But his run does need to be improved in some way. To say that he beat Walton is not saying that his bike position is better. Jeez, Macca can beat most athletes even if he rode on much inferior equipment. But when the TOP athletes put it on the line in Kona, for the 2nd straight year he faded on the RUN. To make excuses about how long he has been going long course is ridiculous. How long had Luc Van Lierde been doing Ironmans when he won at Kona.

Macca is great, but until someone can post a top run coming off a shallow setup at Kona, then the FIST theory should be respected as the best. I think Macca is a great athlete who works very hard, but a top runner in Ironman, he is not. To win Hawaii ,in most instances, you must post the fastest marathon split. Macca has not posted the fastest marathon split in any of his ironmans. And this is without the best runners in the sport being there.

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Jimmy S.

 In Reply To
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"if testa, or anyone, can get an athlete to produce an average of 90rpm throughout a 56-mile ride on a 74-degree tri bike, i'd have no problem with 74 degrees"

"there is a computrainer workout i do in which i never go below 105rpm during the entire, high intensity, 45-minute workout. that's almost impossible to do on the road, if riding it time trial style"

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Hmm.... In 2002 Zak Carr broke the British medium gear 25 mile time trial record in a time of just over 53 minutes. For those not in the know, medium gear means using a maximum gear of 72 inches; thus Zak averaged a cadence of around 130 rpm (and he wasn't on fixed). Zak doesn't ride steep, either. In fact, from talking to him, his bike is probably set up at around 74 degrees.

duncan

Riding at high cadences is just a matter of adaptation. I routinely do high cadence rides (2-3 hours where I average 110-120 rpms) when I want to stress my aerobic system, work on my form, and give my legs a break (compared to days where I ride 2-3 hours at 70-75 rpm's). I do this ride more frequently on my road bike, which is at about 72-72.5, but also on my steep tri-bike.

http://www.lancearmstrong.com/...e2.nsf/html/training is a link to Charmichael's belief and reasoning behind high cadence training. I did these rides before I heard about Lance using them (if he really does, I still wonder how much the Charmichael/Armstrong connection is real, and how much is marketing), and for the same basic reasons.

It intrigues me that in all these arguments over position and seat angles, noone ever mentions anatomic differences. Differences in the ratio of upper leg(femur) to lower leg(tibia) length have a significant effect on the angles through which power is applied. Take 2 people with identical inseems, one with a femur 2cms longer than their tibia, one with a tibia 2cms longer, and they will have different power application cycles. Their hip angles will be a little different, but the position of the crank arms when the knee is bent 90degrees (where power is delivered most efficiently) will also be different.

In my mind there isn't enough data out there to say one way of riding is better than another. Dan has a few links to some decent studies that show the benefit of riding steep, especially in regards to the effect on running. These studies don't address differences in anatomy though.

Anyway, my original point was that cadence is a non-issue, anyone, with some work and time to adapt can ride any seat angle at whatever cadence they desire (within reason, and certainly well within the range we are talking about here). What the right cadence is is an entirely different matter. Ideal cadence is not very well studied in cycling, in terms of performace (as Dan pointed out they look at easily measurable variables like efficiency, which may or may not relate to the real world). Running is a different matter. It's pretty well established that a running cadence of 90-95 strikes/min is the most efficient, regardless of speed, body type, or distance. My opinion is that the reason 90-100 rpm's works for triathlons (and I am a believer, I just acknowledge that I can't back it up with hard proof =), is that you get off the bike and start running at the same cadence. We've all had rides or runs where when you stop your legs just want to keep moving, the body gets used to repetitive movements. While a change from say 85rpm's on the bike to 95 running doesn't seem like much, any one of us can feel the difference by just going out and doing a little test.

Scott