my feeling is he'd be off the back of the bike, but maybe some of the veterans can chime in. the old uberbikers (of the jurgen zack mold) were generally weak swimmers so there's no way that they'd be able to bridge up without exploding. someone like spencer smith or craig walton might've tried to have some fun out there.

when i think of the allen/gomez mold that you're describing here, the other that comes to mind is simon lessing. he frequently would win itu races with the fastest swim, slowest bike, and fastest run. guy knew exactly what he had to do.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I think he had the engine to be in the main bike pack, but was his swim strong enough to hang with these guys. If he made it to T2, he could run with any of these guys after a hard ride. He still had the run course record for Kona if you take out T2 from 1989

One more thought. The main pack is swimming in the same range as guys like Wolfgang Dietrich and Rob Mackle. They used to win the Kona swim. Mark never swam with them so I am pretty certain he's have missed the main pack today. He'd be in between Frodo and a the other virtual insertion Sanders/Sebi. Once Sanders and Sebi caught him, they would likely ride by but maybe he'd try to hang with them noting that he needs to close the gap on the swim deficit because it would be a close to even run with Frodo. I am pretty sure, the open 10K of Frodo is a bit faster than Mark's and Alistair's is a lot faster.

We know that Mark Allen ran 32:00 10km OPEN at Bolder Boulder in 1990 at age 32. He ran 32:29 in 1993 at age 35. 32:56 in 1994 at age 36. I have verifiable proof HERE. These are from the top 20-all time AG records, altitude is around 5400 feet. The course is much harder than most of you may believe with deceptive inclines that really look flat.

Don’t want to derail the thread... But Frodeno quicker than Brownlee over 10k? I either A) didn’t know Frodeno had such a hot 10k or B) didn’t realise how weak Frodeno would have been on the bike in the ITU days.

You misread (or I did not write clearly). Frodo's open, I am certain is faster than Mark's open 10K. I do not believe Mark ever ran sub 31. Frodo ran 30:06 at the London Olympics. Alistair is faster than both and ran 29 flat. I would think both Frodo and Alistair would run at least 30-45 seconds faster in an open 10k vs off the bike in an ITU race.

But Mark's off the bike 10K in long racing for now is faster than Frodo. Frodo has never run sub 2:40 in Kona which is what Mark ran if you remove T2 (with T2 it was 2:40).

Frodo has never run sub 2:40 in Kona


Until possibly this year! That 1:06 split today was amazing.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I doubt he actually ran 1:06. That course sounds like it was short. Michi Weiss ran 1:10 today also. It feels around 750m short given all the ultra fast runs

Ah yes - sorry I went back and did misread.

Cannot speak for Frodeno but looks like Brownlee ran 29:15 in a run event, a minute less on the track.

Brownlee ran 28:30 at stanford

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Gps from some friends racing there gave distances from 20.7 to 20.9 so max 400 meters short.

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

OK 750m is wrong, but 400m at 1:06 pace is only 75 seconds....so max 1:08.xx....still a crazy fast run. We never really got to see Mark Allen race a fast half Ironman. He was racing Olympics and IM's with obligatory detours to Nice for the win and Zofingen.

Off topic, it’s cool to look through that list and see some studs from back in the day. Frank Shorter, Steve Flanagan (Shalane’s Dad), Shannon Butler (Montana legend who was screwed out of racing the 96 Olympic trials by USATF). Oh, and Chrissie Wellington with a 37 flat in 2009.

On topic, Tim Don is on the age 35 list two spots (6 seconds) ahead of Mark Allen with a 32:23 in 2013

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Matt

I did get to beat Frank Shorter in a trail race once. Granted he was like AARP age and then some--but it was cool to say I beat a gold medalist ;-) Yeah those guys running 32's or less at altitude, just amazing. It's hard enough getting to the finish on that course.

I'm pretty sure Allen ran sub 50:00 one year at the Cherry Blossom 10-Miler. Likely his gap year where he was trying to qualify for the Olympic Trials in the marathon. So his open 10K potential was definitely sub 31:00 but still no way close to Brownlee's 28:30 on the track.

I think what makes these comparisons so difficult is that the dynamics of the eras are different - Allen was certainly feared and respected by his competitors at the time, but if you had the current ITU scene and level of competition, who's to say whether he would have risen to it or not. Back then pros didn't specialize so much, and many of them raced a lot. There's definitely some crossover today (Brownlee, Duffy and Riveros with Xterra, Gomez, etc.), but with a lot of those (maybe not Duffy yet) it's more like they're transitioning out of ITU as they age out of being able to remain at the top there.

Ian

Exactly - that, to me, is the fun!

I think the biggest question is could Mark have lifted his swim to hang with the front group today. I just don’t have a sense of how much of a strength that was for him and how much room for growth there was (assuming he’d train for the current dynamics).

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

True - those ITU guys all swim super fast now. Not to mention Lucy Charles...dayum!

Ian

Mark ran a 29;50+ 10k for his fastest. Pretty sure he could have gone better too if he already was not the fastest runner in triathlon. HE also went a 14;30 5k at Carlsbad, not a particularly fast course, and not paced well that day.. Running 50 flat for 10 miles basically tells you he was sub 30 for 10k too.

He most certainly would have swam with that lead group, not sure where you guys get that all those 10 guys were like Wolfgang and Mackel? Wolfgang swam about a 48 flat virtually every year at Kona, one time a 46 high. And that was on the old course that was 200m longer, who of that group swims that fast now?? I mean Josh would just be swimming side by side with either of those guys, went like a 47 with a 200m head start..

The lead swimming group for pros has not changed one bit from the early days, in fact some of the fastest ever were from back in the 80's. There is more depth in ITU racing, just because there has to be. If Dave or Mark or anyone from back in the day had to step up their game, it would just have been a matter of swimming more. People swam as much as was needed, just like now. In the past few years on the shorter course the lead group starts at 48+(50+ with added distance) which is exactly what the old lead group used to do on average. On some slow years it was a 51, couple fast years just under 50. Outliers were in the 48's, occasionally just under. An outlier now would have to go a 46 to equal Wolfgang's 48's, and we have not seen that, and the record has been in place for a very long time, even with the new 2+ minute head start.

So that should tell you all you need to know about the swim comparisons, as for the bike, yes Mark would have been there too. You guys have to keep in mind that there were not the uber bikers, they did not race this day. They were just the normal lead group that usually loses time to guys like sanders, Keinle, Wurf, Starky, etc. Come Kona time, none of those guys gets a top 3 bike split time.

This is why I pose the question - thanks for the input Monty! I consider Allen to be the GOAT but don’t actually know much about him as a racer.

BTW, if you ever talk to him, tell him he should sell or commission or whatever a “The Grip” or “Grip” t-shirt. I’d buy it.

I’d also buy a “The Man” shirt if it had a 80’s-style outline silhouette of Dave.

Not sure I’d rock a “Skid” or “ST”. No offense to either, but they got the short end of the nickname stick.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

monty-in addition to the old swim course being longer, back in your day when you raced, you all were using a Speedo vs "speed suits" like the B70 PZ3TX or whatever else is on the market for a given brand. Although I am willing to bet that this year's Kona (with some other ITU guys in there like Gomez, may push the nerves enough on a top swimmer to have a near record time. Which--I think should stand separate from Lar's record as it is a longer swim without the speedsuit.

Ya, the speed suits are an advantage, but to be honest, we all shaved down back then, so swim tapers were more swim like..It would have been nice to not have to do those shaves, would trade it for a tight fitting sreedsuit any day!!!

I have been very surprised since they shortened the course that the old record has not gone down. I know one year some guy went for it on the longer course, Flannagan I think it was, with Andy Potts in tow the entire swim. But he only went a 47+, which would certainly have been a 45+ on todays course.

I think you are right though, if they get at least neutral conditions, the swim pace should be in that low 47 to 46+ range. Pretty much the same swimmers though, and dont expect Gomez to take pace, so perhaps a big group of 12 to 20 again..

Now the womens race, I look for Lucy to pretty much swim that lead mensgroup time on her own water, too bad the starts are seperated(as they should be), just would be fun to see what time she could do sitting on some faster feet!! All those old womens records were set swimming on mens feet, so have to factor that in too..

Thanks for chiming in Monty. What you state is what I remember. I think those that doubt Mark and Dave being able to be in the lead swim group are not aware they swam in college, which may be more than current guys. Wolfgang and Rob were monsters, with some amazing times without wetsuits! Also, I don't think anyone can body slam a competitor as well as Rob! ;-)

Well said Monty. People forget how good of a cyclist Mark was as well. He would have been up there (and comfortably) in the lead group. Mark would routinely drop Zack and company on training rides 5-6 weeks out from Hawaii every year in SoCal (meaning he would wait for them at stoplights, tops of hills, etc). But that was only during that late time of year.

But I can’t remember a 1/2 IM where Mark had a noteable race. Like Dev said, it was mostly Olympic, Nice, and Hawaii. I remember a few 1/2s where he dropped out just to save himself for Hawaii. But no stellar 1/2 IMs.

As far as the swim, I don’t think the guys of today (in Hawaii) are any faster than Hinshaw, Mackle, or Wolfgang. There’s just more of them who are around the same speed. Only the swim-specialists like Flanagan could really separate from that lead pack.

Monty, I hope someday you will document all that triathlon history from the 80s. I find it intriguing and I’m always curious what it was like in California during that era as I’m sure others are.

Monty, my assumption was that Amberger-Wolfgang-Mackle-Frodo are peers in the swim.

The only way we would really know if getting their pool 1500m PB's since Kona is so variable, but there is the pool vs open water thing.

In any case of the 4 I mention above are swim peers then I think it would be a stretch to think that Mark would make today's swim lead pack.

If Wolgang and Mackle were faster than Amberger and Frodo, then maybe Mark would. Or if ITU racing existed, then Mark and Dave being former college swimmers would just up their swim game.