Marathon Training

Jan 24, 03 10:35

Post #1 of 21 (6403 views)

I'm currently raining for my first ever marathon and using a coaching service and their training plan. My goal is to run the marathon in 3:30 or less and I have some concerns about the training I'm doing being able to prepare my properly. I have expressed my concerns to the coaches but they insist the program is sufficient.

This program bases all runs on time, not mileage. All runs are done within a prescribed HR zone. The HR zone is determined by a test at the beginning of the program. In order to stay within the prescribed HR my long runs are run fairly slow. Currently the program calls for me to do my longest run in 2.5 hours. At the pace I'm allowed by the HR that would mean about 15 miles. To me that does not seem like it would be enough to properly prepare me to run a full marathon at the pace I would need in order to achieve my goal. The plan calls for me to have 5 of the 2.5 hour runs so perhaps I will get a bit faster, but it will still be training for an hour less than the race effort.

I was reading in Galloway's Book of Running that one of the best ways to be able to run a full marathon without hitting the wall is to do long runs of even further than race distance several times. Has anyone used this approach?

Should I go against the coaches advice and do some long runs of at least 20-22 miles or farther? I have a feeling that all they are doing is just preparing me to finish the race and not giving any thought to my goal.

Don

Re: Marathon Training [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]

Jan 24, 03 11:46

Post #2 of 21 (6387 views)

I don't know what you fitness level or back ground is nor wh gave you the advice/program that you are working on for your marathon.

That being said, the standard long run advice that I have seen is for runners prepping for a marathon, who are shooting for a time like what you are shooting for, is to have the longest run be 2 1/2 to 3 hours or 20 miles, what ever comes first. If you are only covering 15 miles in 2 1/2 hrs now and you still have a ways to go to the marathon race date, then you are OK. What would concern me is that the pace of these longer runs is too slow. Keep the HR in the lower zone for the first 1/2 of the long run, but then don't worry about it for the second half - it will go up even if you maintain pace due to Cardiac Drift. If you were to maintain your HR for the full course of your run then you would likley have to slow the pace down way down. You don't want to do that - at the very least you want to maintain pace, and perhaps even pick it up over the last hour of the run. Think about what you want to do in the marathon: Do you want to run the second half stronger and possibly faster - then you will want to do this in training to.

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Marathon Training [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]

Jan 24, 03 12:08

Post #3 of 21 (6373 views)

I think it sounds like they are just trying to get you to the finish line. Leaving a whole hour of uncharted territory is too much. I don't think you have to do long runs that are as long or longer, DISTANCE-WISE than your race distance. But if you can do some long runs that are as long, TIME-WISE, then you'll be in good shape. Even if your long run is within 15-20 minutes of 3:30, you'll be a lot better off than only having a long run of 2:30.

Keep the pace easy, but don't be a slave to your HR. Fleck is right about the cardiac drift. Also, if you have a high LT, you may be able to work a little harder than what your HR zones say.

I'll also say this about Gallowalking. While I don't agree with it for the race, I don't have a problem with using it during training. I like to run 15 minutes, then walk 1 minute (use this to hydrate, fuel, stretch, etc.). I find I recovery a lot quicker from a 3 hour run that includes Gallowalking than I do from a 2 hour run that doesn't include it. I'll especially use Gallowalking during my last long run to force me to keep the pace easy, decrease chance of injury and speed my recovery.

I hope that wasn't too much more than you were asking for. Good luck and don't forget to work on boosting your LT and honing in on your marathon pace.

Zeke

Re: Marathon Training [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]

Jan 24, 03 12:08

Post #4 of 21 (6372 views)

Convential training has long runs in the area of 1 minute per mile slower than race pace. Also, marathon training plans commonly have 4-5 runs in the 18-22 mile range at the 1 minute slower pace. I have also seen a rule of thumb saying a training run should never exceed 3-3.5 hours.

With a longest run of 15 miles I would never make it comfortably to the finish, and certainly wouldn't make 3.5 hours.

Re: Marathon Training [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]

Jan 24, 03 12:14

Post #5 of 21 (6369 views)

I trained for my first marathon last year, and my goal was 3:30 also. I wore a HR monitor on all my runs and really worked hard at keeping it low, which was really frustrating and required me to run a lot slower than I previously had. The duration of my runs was quite a bit longer than those prescribed for you however.

I probably did 5 runs that took between 2:40 and 3:00. 2 of them were 20 milers. The longer ones were at a little faster pace (a little under 9:00 per mile I think) than the earlier ones, in part because I got a little faster at the lower heart rates and in part because toward the end I started thinking "aww, to hell with this heart rate monitor training".

FWIW I ran 3:28.02.

Re: Marathon Training [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]

Jan 24, 03 12:38

Post #6 of 21 (6345 views)

HR zones are good aproach but not the best.You shouldn't be a slave to your HRmonitor. On long runs don't use it.Remember that your HR will jump with anything like cold,dehydration or even unhappy thoughts.Use it only on intervals. The long runs should be 30-35km on your peak week. Start with 20km and increase 6-7% until peak week.Do 1 long run per week. Remember that you need to do some jumps to increase slightly your HR. That's just practicing race conditions.Don't forget that at race your HR would be 5 beats above training because of adrenaline excretion.

Galloway method [ In reply to ]

Jan 24, 03 12:46

Post #7 of 21 (6333 views)

I was reading in Galloway's Book of Running that one of the best ways to be able to run a full marathon without hitting the wall is to do long runs of even further than race distance several times. Has anyone used this approach?

You should be aware that the Galloway method uses walking breaks, so you may walk for a minute every 5 to 10 minutes. That makes it much eaisier to do longer distances and recovery is faster. I followed this method last year to get back in shape after a long layoff (with the Galloway group here in Atlanta). I started with literally 2 mile runs and 6 months later was doing 26 mile training runs (with walk breaks every 10 minutes) in under 4 hours, and it felt very easy. We did all runs at 2 minutes per mile slower than goal race pace. It works, but it takes awhile. One goal of the Galloway method is to do the training without injury, thus the walking and easy pace. I think in running it is worth every slow mile I do to avoid injury because once injured, it is a long road back.

"My strategy is to start out slow and then peter-out altogether" Walt Stack

Re: Galloway method [C2KRider] [ In reply to ]

Jan 24, 03 13:49

Post #8 of 21 (6319 views)

i've only done 2 marathons---the first was just to finish, the second was to go under 3.5 hrs.

You gotta at least run 3 hrs, have to. If youre only running 2.5 hrs and you wanna finish in 3.5 hrs how is your body going to handle that last hr? My longest run for my second marathon was 23 miles, which took me something like 3.5 hrs. The largest difference between my first and second marathon was pace not dist. For the first marathon my longest run was about 19 miles---but the avg min/mile was around9-10. For my second, avg pace was about 7-8 min/mile.

In horrible conditions, (CIM 2001) i ran a 3:33---i felt capable of running under 3:25 though under warmer and stiller conditions.

I dont want to say ditch your coach, but you may want to ask some questions to them about why their doing what their doing.

If i was going to do another marathon, i would do overdistance-----the woman who holds the WR in the marathon now, said that on her long runs, she never ran more than 45 miles. The long run is key, and i think overdistance is key.

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Re: Marathon Training [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]

Jan 24, 03 14:07

Post #9 of 21 (6307 views)

I think your coaches are being overcautious. I've tried to do marathons without long (3 hour plus) runs, but it never worked - didn't matter how much base I had in terms of years of running, those really long runs (time, not distance) were essential for me. In those attempts, I was doing 20 milers in 2h20 - 2h30, but race day always yielded an ignominous flameout over the last miles.

I agree wholly with basing long runs on time and not mileage, but think you do need some 3 to 4 hour runs in there. Do them slow, and stop for walking or water breaks.

Also, having a time goal in your first marathon is risky. The miles in the 20's are a distant and unknown land: in your first venture I'd recommend just mapping out the territory, and not getting too focused on a goal time.

"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

Re: Marathon Training [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]

Jan 24, 03 14:17

Post #10 of 21 (6303 views)

Thanks for all the responses. It seems to be unanimous that I should have a run longer than 2.5 hours. Incidentally this is a group marathon training program offered through a major coaching company. The original coach of the program, a former Boston Marathon winner, left shortly after I began training and I think it was due to a differing philosophy. In the group I seem to be one of the very few who have a specific time goal and I think they may be doing training for the masses instead of each individual despite claims to the contrary.

I think that Galloway's Book on Running was written prior to his advocacy of walking breaks as I have seen no mention of that in this book. This book was copyrighted in 1984. He mentions one of the reasons for training at longer than race distance is to prepare mentally to run that far. How much does the mental aspect factor into being able to run strongly in the later miles?

I'm only 8 weeks into a 20 week program and the event isn't until the beginning of May so I still have plenty of time to make adjustments.

Don

I was taught ... [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]

Jan 24, 03 16:42

Post #11 of 21 (6277 views)

one never has to run more than 15 miles (18 miles max) in training for a marathon. I think your coaches are training you right for your first marathon. Your speed will come up with more mileage. Inceasing your individual run distance will tear you down more than it will build you up at this point in your career.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: Marathon Training [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]

Jan 24, 03 18:12

Post #12 of 21 (6257 views)

I too am training for my first marathon. I am useing a book by Stanton as my reference the longest run he has for a 3:30 program is 20mi at an 8:45-10:00 pace. He also advocates for the 10 on 1 off training so the 8:45 is the running pace and the 10:00 is the combine pace includeing running.

I think that the main argument against overdistance training for a marathon is that your chance of injury increases dramatically after 20 mi. I am reminded of a quote from a freind of mine (2:45 marathoner and 10:00 IM) who told me that more people train and dont make it to the start line than train and dont meet their goal.

Re: Marathon Training [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]

Jan 24, 03 18:46

Post #13 of 21 (6253 views)

As a runner (and a running coach) I would recommend a few runs where you cover at least 20 miles and possibly 22-23 just to get used to running that far regardless of how long it takes you. I would also recommend leaving the heart rate monitor at home on some of your runs and just go out and push for 10-13 miles and forget about staying within your target zone. A 3:30 marathon is a good goal to start with. The 10-13 mile hard runs could be one or two have marathon races leading up to your big one.

My first marathon I did on a whim 11 years ago with only 3 runs longer than 10 miles and my legs just gave out from the pounding at 23 miles and my final 3 miles were at a pace 1-1.5 minutes/mile slower than I had been running. That is why I recommend putting in a few extra long runs to prepare yourself.

Re: Marathon Training [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]

Jan 25, 03 3:49

Post #14 of 21 (6224 views)

Tri2HaveFun, From the sound of it, your first marathon is unlikely to be your last. That being the case, I recommend you follow your coach's plan. That's what you are paying or at least investing trust to him/her for. If you ignore your coach, you are saying that you have no faith in their ability to guide you toward your goal. In that case, stop paying the coach and strike out on your own.

There are many ways to get from point A in training to point B finishline of your first marathon. For the typical age-grouper I never recommend setting a time goal for the first one. You're setting yourself up for failure and disappointment. Often the biggest question in an athlete's mind, despite having some vague and often unrealistic time goal, is simply whether or not they have the fortitude to last the distance. 26.2 miles is a formidable distance for the uninitiated. Reading between the lines of your post I can hear you asking "Is this enough training to make the distance?" The answer is yes. Is it enough for YOU to make your time goal? Well, lets find out. As I said, this first one is unlikely to be your last. Its unlikely to be a performance anywhere near what you are capable of. Use it as a baseline from which to base future training. You've got years of running ahead of you.

Re: Marathon Training [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]

Jan 25, 03 5:59

Post #15 of 21 (6215 views)

I've read that world class marathoner's rarely run beyond 2.5 hrs for their long runs. Granted, they're going alot further than you or I during that period. However, if the best in the world don't run beyond this amount of time, why should you? When people tell you they ran multiple 3+ hr training runs in order to achieve their 3:30 marathon times, what does that prove? Maybe they would have performed better on less. If your coach did a good job of understanding your background and current capabilities and has coached others to good results, go with it. No offense meant, but I'd value the teachings of a quality coach over the opinions of 3:30 marathoners any day.

BTW, I followed the Galloway method years a go when I first started running and it gave me my 3:30 marathon. Now that I don't do these crazy 25 milers anymore (rarely run over 15) I am a helluva lot faster. Personally, I think you get much more out of your running by doing high mileage, but spreading it out over the week.

Re: Marathon Training [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]

Jan 25, 03 6:14

Post #16 of 21 (6212 views)

I ran my first marathon in October, finished with a 3.38.

I started running in Feb., my biggest week was 50miles, averaged maybe 15miles/week, the longest run I ever ran was 2 hrs.

My actual prep-runs were all either 6 or 10miles on hillytrails, a couple times a week, starting in July.

Never crashed, never hit a wall, kept talking the entire way through. Met some real lovely people.

You should handle the last hour just fine, even if you dont specifically train for it.

However, perhaps I did have a cross-training advantage-- I row, and was training approx. 15hrs/week in addition to running.

Here's my advice:

Dont get overly worried if you dont do X-number of X-long runs X-weeks before the marathon.

Just stay in under your aerobic zone during the event, and remember to have fun--, or in your case, tri2havefun.

That said, I want to run the next one under 3.15, and will, in fact, do them long runs everyone else prescribes,

starting at the end of rowing season, or 2mths before the marathon.

Because they are fast and you are not. [ In reply to ]

Jan 25, 03 7:06

Post #17 of 21 (6203 views)

"I've read that world class marathoner's rarely run beyond 2.5 hrs for their long runs...if the best in the world don't run beyond this amount of time, why should you?"

Uh, because world class marathon runners finish a marathon in just over two hours? So, 2.5 hours is long training for them. Helps a lot to be fast!

"My strategy is to start out slow and then peter-out altogether" Walt Stack

Re: Because they are fast and you are not. [C2KRider] [ In reply to ]

Jan 25, 03 12:40

Post #18 of 21 (6175 views)

so, if you're a 5 hour marathoner, then it makes sense to do 5 hour training runs? C'mon. It's not how far you run in training, its the time and effort involved. A 2.5 hour easy paced training run for an elite runner isn't necessarily an easier run than a 2.5 hour training run for a 3.5 hour marathoner if they are both running at their aerobic pace. On the other hand, an 18-20 mile easy paced run for an elite runner is a heck of alot easier than an 18-20 mile run for a 3.5 hr marathoner.

Sounds good to me [ In reply to ]

Jan 25, 03 15:42

Post #19 of 21 (6159 views)

Your coach's plan sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I trained about that much at a slightly faster pace when I was a kid and I went under three hours on my first marathon. Those days are far behind me though.

If you are big strong kid that recovers in no time, a more demanding schedule might be in order. Still, it just takes one minor injury to blow your training for a month.

The best thing I ever did training for my first marathon was get tendonitis in my ankle one week before the race. I couldn't run at all until the day before the race. When the gun went off, I was ready to rumble.

I would stick with the plan and see what it brings. If you feel like you could go further or go faster, you are probably doing about right. You will know a lot more after your first marathon. You can try to vary the program then.

Re: Sounds good to me [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Jan 26, 03 12:31

Post #20 of 21 (6132 views)

I do plan to stick with the coaches advice. At least for the first race. I did discuss my concerns and the coach has bumped my training up to 6 days and my longest run will now be 2:45. Except for the recovery weeks all my long runs will be at least 2 hours and total weekly mileage will be around 45.

We do have another test this week and training schedules may be adjusted based on the results. I would think I should be able to perform the test at a higher level this time and as a result my training pace will increase.

Thanks for all the advice. My plan is to use this marathon as a springboard into longer tris. I wish I had gotten in this at a younger age, but for 47 and fairly new to all of this I'm doing OK.

Didn't know you were 47 [ In reply to ]

Jan 26, 03 13:13

Post #21 of 21 (6125 views)

As one 47 year old to another, you should think very long and hard about going beyond what your coach set up for you. We have to deal with the fact that we don't recover or heal as quickly as the kids. Doing 45 miles per week is a lot of stress on these old bones even if it is made up of mostly slow miles.

Stick with the program. Pick it up only after you body proves it can handle your current level of stress for a period of months.

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