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Madfiber Wheels...any experience?
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Anyone have experience on MADFIBER wheels? Thoughts? My undergrad in material science (composites) engineering makes me drool over them. Looking for real world experience, though.


Brian Grasky
Grasky Endurance: World Championship Triathlon Coaching; Professional Training Camps
RETUL fitter, Biomechanist, USAT Level 3 Coach, USAC Level 2 Coach
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [seebritri] [ In reply to ]
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perhaps your drool would be better used on something with proven aerodynamics.

the rim shape on the mad fiber doesnt look spectacular whatsoever.
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [seebritri] [ In reply to ]
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Scary Moment

MadFibers

I have a set that my sponsor sent me. The above articles are my experience. Although most of what you see above has nothing to do with how they work. I found them really unstable and not very confidence inspiring. Maybe I just don't like narrow rims. So, as of right now, they are just sitting in the bags in my garage. I really haven't found a good use for them. I always ride my S3 with the regular training wheels and I would never pick the Madfibers over my HED wheels for the tri bike. I also am not a tubular fan, so that's another strike with me.....so now they just sit. meh....


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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I looked at the photos in the link. It looks as if there was no glue on those. Did you ride them without glue?

Greg.
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [Timemachine] [ In reply to ]
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They were taped only....no glue. As it turns out, the shop that did the initial install used some new tape that was a substitute for the tape they had been using. They sent the whole batch back to the manufacturer after my incident.

As I mentioned in the blog, it was my fault for not having my mechanic do the install and trusting someone else to do it. Never again.


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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Do you know what type of tape they used? Was it actual tubular tire tape? It couldn't be the Tufo stuff as it is overkill. I've used some Velox tape that I didn't really trust. I only used it on a set of occasional use wheels and doubled up on it.

Greg.
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [Timemachine] [ In reply to ]
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Here is the response from the shop...

"The tape on your wheels now is Tufo's new tape that was recommended to us by Tufo North America as a better replacement for the the Extreme tape which they didn't have in stock at the time as it may be discontinued. I've installed dozens of Tufo tires on all sorts of carbon wheels with the Extreme tape and have found it adheres extremely well. Unfortunately, that does not appear to be the case with Tufo's new tape. We're sending it all back and will not use it again."


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [seebritri] [ In reply to ]
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Leonard Zinn (not a lightweight) used them in several cross races throughout this past season. I haven't seen anything written but in talking with him, he was pretty happy with them. He's typically pretty responsive to questions. Hit him up at lzinn@competitorgroup.com
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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How are they not proven? Have you seen or done any testing of them?
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [seebritri] [ In reply to ]
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I am interested in these wheels too. Hopefully a clincher will be out soon.

My sense of wheels like these are you are buying them for the weight, just so they accelarate faster and give that spinup feel.

Other reviews on the internet are pretty good, but a more indepth account would be awesome.
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [Neal Dunn] [ In reply to ]
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Neal Dunn wrote:
just so they accelarate faster and give that spinup feel.

sadly the extent to which light wheels accelerate faster, while real, is so small you can treat it as zero. In all cases other than a hill climb, aero trumps weight, even on wheels.

However, they might be pretty aero too! who knows.

I am really curious to see how reliability plays out over the next couple of years.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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[/quote]

sadly the extent to which light wheels accelerate faster, while real, is so small you can treat it as zero. In all cases other than a hill climb, aero trumps weight, even on wheels.[/quote]
For tri/time trial, yes. For road racing (unless you break at mile 1 for a solo effort), no.


Brian Grasky
Grasky Endurance: World Championship Triathlon Coaching; Professional Training Camps
RETUL fitter, Biomechanist, USAT Level 3 Coach, USAC Level 2 Coach
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [seebritri] [ In reply to ]
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seebritri wrote:
For tri/time trial, yes. For road racing (unless you break at mile 1 for a solo effort), no.

even for road racing.

do the math sometime on what kind of energy savings you get from the reduced grams of light wheels vs the reduced drag of aero ones.

cavendish doesn't sprint on 808s for no reason.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [seebritri] [ In reply to ]
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you've been here for 5 years. There are no excuses for still being confused about something as proveable as this.
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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sadly the extent to which light wheels accelerate faster, while real, is so small you can treat it as zero. In all cases other than a hill climb, aero trumps weight, even on wheels.

I've thought about this standard Slowtwitch mantra (which you've chanted over and over) a lot lately.

For starters, to say that the differences between wheels in their ability to accelerate is "zero" is a pretty large statement for someone who's been riding for as relatively few years as you and who has so little experience with different wheels. I've ridden and raced many, many sets of wheels over many years and many miles. Many factors enter into how a wheel will accelerate. Weight is only one of them. Spoke count and tension is another. Wheel size is another. A standard rimmed 650c wheel with 28 stout spokes that are properly tensioned will feel like lightning out of a corner or up a hill compared to most any 700c deep-rimmed wheel with 20 or 24 spoke count and/or noodly, super-light spokes. Those are near the opposite ends of the spectrum, but I've raced both (and near everything in-between) and the differences are quite real and noticeable. (I'm betting the Madfiber wheels is wicked stiff and relatively light. If that's true, it might have wicked acceleration.)

Also, the aero trumps weight mantra ... I'm really sick of hearing that. Lets view it this way ... you have a choice between a P4 that, when fully built out, weighs a hair under 17 pounds versus a Speed Concept that, when fully built out weighs in at 20 pounds. You're racing a hilly half ironman and you're going hard. Aerodymanically, those bikes each have their relative strengths, but they're both awesome bikes. Call that a tie. But one bike outweighs the other by 3 pounds. I'm sorry, but physics are still physics. For the first 20 miles, you'll hardly notice the difference. But especially if you're a small rider, I'm saying that, by the end of the 56 miles, you're going to feel those three extra pounds you dragged up every hill. On a flat course, I'd agree. No meaningful difference. I've read the crap that it takes more than an 8% grade (or whatever it is ... I didn't pay close attention because I regarded it as meaningless nonsense when I read it) for the added weight of a disc to negate its aero benefits. That takes no account of rider weight, strength/fitness or fatigue.

There's a real world out there and it's full of many variables.
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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while certainly not perfect, I'll take my math over a million human perceptions *any* day.

until such time as someone chooses to prove me wrong by careful measurement, I'm pretty confident I'm right here. I think in fact this notion has been proven right already by careful measurement by zipp, biketechreview, and maybe tom?

a light wheel *will* let you go quicker, but not substantively more so than a light skewer, or stem, or ass.


and yes, certainly "aero trumps weight" would fail to be true for large enough weights and small enough aerodynamic benefits. But there does not exist any frame comparison that we talk about here with a 3 pound delta, so I think we are ok.

I'm going to do a crit tonight on some super light tubies and relish in the illusion that they spin up quick =)



psycholist wrote:
, to say that the differences between wheels in their ability to accelerate is "zero" is a pretty large statement for someone who's been riding for as relatively few years as you and who has so little experience with different wheels. I've ridden and raced many, many sets of wheels over many years and many miles. Many factors enter into how a wheel will accelerate. Weight is only one of them. Spoke count and tension is another. Wheel size is another. A standard rimmed 650c wheel with 28 stout spokes that are properly tensioned will feel like lightning out of a corner or up a hill compared to most any 700c deep-rimmed wheel with 20 or 24 spoke count and/or noodly, super-light spokes. Those are near the opposite ends of the spectrum, but I've raced both (and near everything in-between) and the differences are quite real and noticeable. (I'm betting the Madfiber wheels is wicked stiff and relatively light. If that's true, it might have wicked acceleration.)[/size]

Also, the aero trumps weight mantra ... I'm really sick of hearing that. Lets view it this way ... you have a choice between a P4 that, when fully built out, weighs a hair under 17 pounds versus a Speed Concept that, when fully built out weighs in at 20 pounds. You're racing a hilly half ironman and you're going hard. Aerodymanically, those bikes each have their relative strengths, but they're both awesome bikes. Call that a tie. But one bike outweighs the other by 3 pounds. I'm sorry, but physics are still physics. For the first 20 miles, you'll hardly notice the difference. But especially if you're a small rider, I'm saying that, by the end of the 56 miles, you're going to feel those three extra pounds you dragged up every hill. On a flat course, I'd agree. No meaningful difference. I've read the crap that it takes more than an 8% grade (or whatever it is ... I didn't pay close attention because I regarded it as meaningless nonsense when I read it) for the added weight of a disc to negate its aero benefits. That takes no account of rider weight, strength/fitness or fatigue.

There's a real world out there and it's full of many variables.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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Now you've done it. You're bringing common sense and personal experience into the discussion. Do you want to get banned by the ST pseudo-scientists?

Greg.
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [Timemachine] [ In reply to ]
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You are simply not allowed to discount mathematics and engineering on *the internet*

common sense never could have built it! ;)

Timemachine wrote:
Now you've done it. You're bringing common sense and personal experience into the discussion. Do you want to get banned by the ST pseudo-scientists?

Greg.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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until such time as someone chooses to prove me wrong by careful measurement, I'm pretty confident I'm right here.

HA ... you didn't even quote me right.
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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[/quote]

cavendish doesn't sprint on 808s for no reason.[/quote]
You're right. He races on HEDs. And Dura-Ace carbons. And Lightweights. And sings the praises of light weight wheels by using carbon hubs.


Brian Grasky
Grasky Endurance: World Championship Triathlon Coaching; Professional Training Camps
RETUL fitter, Biomechanist, USAT Level 3 Coach, USAC Level 2 Coach
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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You know there are some places where math doesn't really matter that much. It sounds like the OP already considered all the science and math behind the wheels and was asking for opinions based on real world experience.
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [Timemachine] [ In reply to ]
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I will say this....they are damn light...and they feel light when you ride them. Maybe that's why they feel a little unstable as well....??


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [Timemachine] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Timemachine, but this is ST: you ask 1 question and you get 245 answers, not one is related to your original question and only 2 are actually backed by science or data.


Brian Grasky
Grasky Endurance: World Championship Triathlon Coaching; Professional Training Camps
RETUL fitter, Biomechanist, USAT Level 3 Coach, USAC Level 2 Coach
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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [seebritri] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Timemachine, but this is ST: you ask 1 question and you get 245 answers, not one is related to your original question and only 2 are actually backed by science or data.

Your OP asked for "thoughts." That was your mistake. ;-)

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Re: Madfiber Wheels...any experience? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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until such time as someone chooses to prove me wrong by careful measurement, I'm pretty confident I'm right here. I think in fact this notion has been proven right already by careful measurement by zipp, biketechreview, and maybe tom?

Jack, I really respect your attitude and posts, but until you have amassed enough racing experience in races and situations where the differences being argued about "CAN" make a difference, it's very hard for your to assert authority based simply off an applied mathematical model.

Here's an example to counter your logic in these continual posts asserting your authority. Many manufacturers have claimed their products to be superior aerodynamically based off of computational fluid dynamics. In the wind tunnel, these products have been proven to not work in a "psuedo" real world situation. If there was a way to ACTUALLY measure the differences in wheels in very dynamic racing situations, we may find that "perception" is more in line with what's happening than your internet calculated mathematical model. We may actually find that lighter wheels do, in fact, save energy in their acceleration.

Another example to consider is that in the course of all this "internet calculation" of what is or isn't the best equipment, glaring mistakes have been made. There was quite the long period where all of the experts were convinced beyond argument that tubulars had been proven to be factually slower than clinchers. As it turns out, this "proof" was based on a method of gluing that could only be described in my opinion as piss poor and dangerous. When properly glued, we are currently told now that good tubulars are rolling on par or better than good clinchers (dependent upon the tires considered).

The hard truth about road racing is that there are many more variables at play than aero, weight, and rolling resistance. In my own experience, I have found and exploited at least one (tire traction), and I'm not an expert or a person who races very often compared to much of my competition.
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