Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [bmas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bmas wrote:
I loved everything about Kona week,

I had a terrible jetlag

bmas wrote:
especially the morning swims at Dig Me Beach

I planned that too bit my ears were a bit sensitive so I did not DARE to swim because I feared an infection

bmas wrote:
and the many social events throughout the week.

I agree, I loved the underpants run and especially that I got the opportunity to watch live the Bob Babbitt interviews ((I regard my selfie with Banjo-Man as my most precious souvenir)

bmas wrote:
The race itself was epic due to the challenging conditions

I lost all of my ambitions to a good placement (so continued merely in finisher-mode) after a mechanical issue after 5 km which costed me exactly an hour, and also because I was way slower on all of the three disciplines as I expected.

bmas wrote:
and I loved the run along Ali Drive and also the finishing mile.

I ran the marathon only motivated to finish which is different from trying to get the best out of it, but ar least I RAN it (also on Palani upwards)

bmas wrote:
Volunteers and organization was fantastic.

Can‘t agree more

bmas wrote:
And my wife loved the holiday

Besides from being on holiday with an unchilled agegrouper who does not like sitting on the beach

bmas wrote:
and especially the week after in Maui.

We flew back straight away because I did not have any holidays left, moreover we‘d been already in Maui 24 years ago

bmas wrote:
Sure there are easier and more beautiful courses around,

That‘s true but I can‘t believe it is that hard to explain my disappointing speed (I do not stop believing it was the jetlag)

bmas wrote:
but to experience this legendary event certainly met this first-timer’s expectations.

It thus did not meet mine‘s.

bmas wrote:
Now to figure out how I can get back there again!

O god I can’t wait
Last edited by: longtrousers: Oct 31, 17 1:52
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sucks to have the mechanical, but you did way better than me if you ran the marathon including Palani hill. I was in survival mode as a victory lap throughout the whole race. For the jet lag, it helps to be an old retired fart like me where you’ve got endless days off and time to come two weeks before (plus to get acclimatized from cool Canadian weather). For your next trip back you can also bring a Cervelo as their booth was awesome and they did free tuneups. Also, for the Dig Me Beach swims I also had concerns about my ears as I’d had problems from a summer of open water swims in questionable water. Ear plugs were a big help.
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [georged] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Perhaps we should be distinguishing between WTC and triathlon, because what's in the interest of one sport is not in the interests of the other sport.


But you are starting to get into that area, as some have here on this thread, and they do elsewhere regularly of thinking of or categorizing IRONMAN as a different sport. It's not - it's a comprised of a swim/bike/run and we call it a, triathlon. Yes, it's a very popular triathlon. Yes, it's the most popular long distance race in triathlon. On that last point, it's a bit like the marathon in running - the BIG difference here, is that IRONMAN is a brand, owned by a private for-profit company.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ignoring the heat or travel or race setup.........Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.

Kona seems to create a massive personal toll on aspiring amateur athletes. Or Ironman in general.

It's a premium event, as is any Ironman competition product, so it costs a lot. But, let's put this in perspective..........

I just looked up pricing for a full Ironman, and it's pretty much $800. The premium amateur cycling experience is pretty much the "Haute Route" series.

They're coming to the US now for 2018. For the THREE DAY series in Asheville, it's $825. For THREE days of SAG vehicles, police escorts, massages, and pretty much the full professional rider treatment.

So, it's not really fair to split the days for an equivalent price......but let's do it.........that's under $300 per day versus $800 for one day.

I have to admit, the pricing on even 1/2 Ironmans is why I pretty much won't try it. I can do a local roadie bike race for $35 to $50 and stand to win up to $250 in Cat 4 and faster.

Local sprints and Olympics unbranded are like $50 to $75. I could swing that.

$800?????!!!!! Hell no. For $800 I'd be riding like a pro for 3 days in the mountains and getting my legs massaged for free everyday thank you very much.
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So, it's not really fair to split the days for an equivalent price......but let's do it.........that's under $300 per day versus $800 for one day.

I have to admit, the pricing on even 1/2 Ironmans is why I pretty much won't try it. I can do a local roadie bike race for $35 to $50 and stand to win up to $250 in Cat 4 and faster. //

Ya but isn't the one day 1/2 Ironman right around the one day $300 you posted up for just a bike ride? And you are really going to compare a local bike race that probably closes no roads, or if they do it is a rolling closure or short loop course to a triathlon that has to stage 3 different sports, and with likely 3, 4, or a ton more competitors?


I think you either need to talk to a RD or a triathlon or actually become one to see the stark differences in what you are trying to compare..
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Why do you describe it as sad?
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
Ya but isn't the one day 1/2 Ironman right around the one day $300 you posted up for just a bike ride? And you are really going to compare a local bike race that probably closes no roads, or if they do it is a rolling closure or short loop course to a triathlon that has to stage 3 different sports, and with likely 3, 4, or a ton more competitors?


I think you either need to talk to a RD or a triathlon or actually become one to see the stark differences in what you are trying to compare..

I'm not saying you're not right. I'm saying those are the reasons that add up to why I can't afford it. Essentially, I'm agreeing with you but saying that the cost is prohibitive because of those things you posted.

I can swing a local sprint or Olympic tri event. I think I saw a local Olympic for like $55. Yeah, it's shorter and in a pool for that part. But it's what I can swing.

I don't have the money for the $300 per day bike event. Nor a $300 one day triathlon.

Kinda sucks since Raleigh hosts one.
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't have the money for the $300 per day bike event. Nor a $300 one day triathlon. //

No problem, most of us have been where you are now, there are things I want and cannot afford either. And I just glad Im done racing Ironman branded races too, because I would not be happy paying those prices either, however justified.
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
To stay on topic:
The relevance to the thread being, I feel for talented people Kona places a kind of gold nugget on a pedestal for people that may not be worth it trying at the cost to self, bank account, and family. It's made out to be the "if you can't get here and do this/finish/win" the rest of your efforts were worthless.


And on my $0.02 diversion:
I just have to chalk it up to what it is and have fun with what I can do. And it's my choice to spread the $300 for races over a whole year instead of one event. I can't fault anyone for that.

Essentially that is the entire budget for a year on entry fees no matter what I choose, about $300. Minus incidentals (travel, food, equipment repair).

Next year here's my anticipated split-up:
-Assault on Mt. Mitchell ($125)
-Falls Lake Road Race (usually $35), with prize money available
-Umstead Gravel Grinder 100 miler($65)
-Some sprint tri or local Olympic tri, money that's left
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
burnthesheep wrote:

Local sprints and Olympics unbranded are like $50 to $75. I could swing that.

Local sprints are more typically $75 - $95 and local internationals are more like $150-$175 at least where I live. If you are willing to register up to a year early you can get some deals. A couple of weeks ago I registered for an Int'l Distance to be held 18 Nov 2018 for $95 ... yeah, 13 months in advance.

Haute Route Asheville looks cool as heck, but you don't swim and you don't run. Basically it's a 3 day bike training camp. You can enter 4+ day tri camps for cheaper.
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Curious because I saw your last post on your race schedule for 2018, but are you a cyclist or a triathlete who road races? Sounds like you do much more cycling geared events. Not that it matters, but take for example your assault on mitchell is $125 dollars, imo equal to a setup events pinehurst olympic or FS Series Beaverdam. Although I'm not sure even FS has an olympic anymore for $75, maybe they do at the earliest of early registrations.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You're right. It's more bike biased. AOMM is a "must try" for me, so why I chose it.

I love the bike. I've managed to get the w/kg to a point I can compete instead of enter "finisher" style events. So want to use that fitness.

After choosing AOMM for next year and know a few other things that may be nice, $300 gets spread thin quickly.

Maybe I could do an every-other year thing. :-)
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
No I get it it, I was just more making the point, that AOMM money wise can be the same as FS Beaverdam (actually $95 for race day registration). Of course it's not as "cool" but once you do it AOMM once, unless your going for some record you could apply that AOMM money to an olympic tri in 2019. I asked if you were a cyclists because I generally don't think people understand the costs that putting on a tri does to an RD. RD's generally aren't out to over price you just because they think they can. It's a pain in the ass to RD and I don't even know all the in and outs. Not to say an IM is priced correctly, yes I think they are over priced, but for what you get and the experience, it's probaly fair. But RD's have so much more shit they have to deal with, and I can tell you as a Raleigh guy (my coaching is based here), the local tri series here in NC (setup events, FS Series, Trivium, Jones Racing) aren't price gouging or anything. They are just running it as a business and hoping to make it another year. FS Series imo has really grown and taken the racer experience up a knotch over the last year.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
HuffNPuff wrote:
jkenny5150 wrote:

I also think it's important to make a distinction between the old Ironman and the new WTC. IMO, things changed when they switched to the KPR point system ~2010. Even worse when the Chinese company bought them last year. When I go to a Rev3 race, or a local sprint, the races have a nice feel to them. Most are about the athlete and their experience. WTC gives you a distinctly different feel. It's good for their bottom line, but bad for the long term growth potential of the sport. They have a stranglehold on the sport, and really, their trademark lawyers are the only reason they've continued to dominate. They succeed not because of triathletes, but because of non-triathletes who only know about Ironman and Kona. The Rev3 tattoo carries no weight when bragging at the water cooler.


Please clue me in. What is the distinction between the old Ironman and the new WTC and when did this change occur? Exactly what is worse now that they've been acquired by Dalian Wanda ... and is definitively a result of the new ownership?

There's no doubt that WTC maintains market dominance in triathlon, but another perspective might be that without Ironman, triathlon participation might not ever have grown to its current worldwide participation level, and in fact, the sport - in the U.S. - might have totally imploded.

That's actually a really good question and a tough one to answer objectively and definitively. When you speak to folks who raced Ironmans in the 80s and 90s, they give you a totally different story. One where beer companies sponsored events that had a laid back feel and the athletes who were there were there for the competition and the personal accomplishment rather than a finisher medal, M-dot tattoo, and to brag to their friends about it. When I go to a Rev3 event (today), I feel like I'm being welcomed to a party by a bunch of good friends (even though I don't know many of them). WTC events give a totally different vibe. They are bigger races, obviously, but I think they give a much more corporate feel. They are over-commercialized and they aren't so much about the athlete any more as they are about making money.

From my (pro triathlete) point of view, things changed drastically when they added the KQ system where you basically had to pay a season pass to race with them. If you wanted to make it to Kona or 70.3 worlds, you could no longer qualify at a single event, but rather, it was a points based system. So, most pros basically raced nothing but WTC for the whole season, even when Rev3, Lifetime, and others had GREAT prize money in their series events. The pros still flocked to WTC events because of sponsorship (among other reasons) and everyone else either went out of business or discontinued paying pros. So, the fields got more competitive, and they've gradually cut their prize purses over time. Now, I know that the sport doesn't NEED pros, right? When you ask AGers why they want to race Ironman (or specifically Ironman WC), they often cite the fact that they get to race on the same course as the pros. So, I would argue that the sport does need pros, at least to some extent. I guess it just doesn't need 2nd tier pros.

Re: Dalian Wanda - not sure of everything they've done or proposed to do differently. Maybe it's more of the same, but I know they aren't taking the sport back to its grassroots beginnings!

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [bilmas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bilmas wrote:
jkenny5150 wrote:


To say that Kona is a World Championship is completely arbitrary, but everyone buys into it. The only official WCs are those sanctioned by ITU.

Another private equity firm could start their own WC in a different location... if only they had a few billion $ to spend... On another note, it would be just as valid for any old local triathlon to call themselves a World Championship. Aside from attendance, history, and prestige, what makes their claim any less valid?


1998 agreement between ITU and WTC:
https://www.teamusa.org/...998-USAT-ITU-WTC.pdf

Briefly, it states that:
ITU recognizes WTC's ownership of "Ironman Triathlon World Championship" (and many other similar names)

ITU acknowledges that the Ironman Triathlon World Championship does not constitute a "self-proclaimed" or "self-declared" world championship within any meaning of any ITU rule or policy.

I have not seen this before. Thanks for sharing. Why would ITU agree to such a thing?

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [georged] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
georged wrote:
Perhaps we should be distinguishing between WTC and triathlon, because what's in the interest of one sport is not in the interests of the other sport.

I agree 100%

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [bmas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Agree 100%. No one could have prepared me for the beast that is Kona and I was disappointed in my first time performance but couldn't wait to get back there to try again and still do... The good energy in that place on race week is intoxicating...
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [bilmas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bilmas wrote:
jkenny5150 wrote:


To say that Kona is a World Championship is completely arbitrary, but everyone buys into it. The only official WCs are those sanctioned by ITU.

Another private equity firm could start their own WC in a different location... if only they had a few billion $ to spend... On another note, it would be just as valid for any old local triathlon to call themselves a World Championship. Aside from attendance, history, and prestige, what makes their claim any less valid?


1998 agreement between ITU and WTC:
https://www.teamusa.org/...998-USAT-ITU-WTC.pdf

Briefly, it states that:
ITU recognizes WTC's ownership of "Ironman Triathlon World Championship" (and many other similar names)

ITU acknowledges that the Ironman Triathlon World Championship does not constitute a "self-proclaimed" or "self-declared" world championship within any meaning of any ITU rule or policy.


I love how you make it sound like the ITU freely and willingly granted the WTC the right to use the term World championship. We all know that Ironman won that battle with their money, flexing their muscles.
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Interesting, I would like to hear more about what happened here (from you or anyone who knows the history of the sport). Disclosure: I do not like WTC. I'm not against profit in sporting per se, but my impression from them is that profit is by far first and then secondarily the sport - quite the contrary of what a federation is supposed to do, advance the interest of the sport.
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [JEI] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JEI wrote:
Interesting, I would like to hear more about what happened here (from you or anyone who knows the history of the sport). Disclosure: I do not like WTC. I'm not against profit in sporting per se, but my impression from them is that profit is by far first and then secondarily the sport - quite the contrary of what a federation is supposed to do, advance the interest of the sport.


You can have a look at this for a start:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Somebody_asked_about_the_WTC/ITU_settlement_P813527/?search_string=wtc%20itu%20legal%20world%20championship#p813527


Couldn't find Dan's story/recall of the settlement that he alludes to at the start of the conversation. Maybe he can dig it up from somewhere in the archives?
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericmulk wrote:

Getting back to tri, I think the ITU World Championships (Oly Dist) and the ITU Long Dist Champs are arguably "major championships" in the tri world,....

In the real world, no one has ever heard of those. The only one that 99.999% of the population has heard of is Kona. (in usa at least) (IF they have even heard of that one)
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [TeamBarenaked] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TeamBarenaked wrote:
ericmulk wrote:


Getting back to tri, I think the ITU World Championships (Oly Dist) and the ITU Long Dist Champs are arguably "major championships" in the tri world,....


In the real world, no one has ever heard of those. The only one that 99.999% of the population has heard of is Kona. (in usa at least) (IF they have even heard of that one)

So what? Most folks have no real idea what the triathlon sport is, let alone distance or format.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [JEI] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That's because they're not a federation. It's a private corporation. Their sole reason for existing is to make money.
Quote Reply
Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 love how you make it sound like the ITU freely and willingly granted the WTC the right to use the term World championship. We all know that Ironman won that battle with their money, flexing their muscles. //

Not sure it went down exactly like that. Yes the ITU felt it owned the term "World Championship" and it was entitled to it. And they were/are, but what it came down to was the actual distances of the race. Yes it was going to cost a lot of money to litigate this thing, but in the end the ITU really gives two shits about Ironman. So they gave them the 140.6 world champs. They were never going to ever do a race like that anyway, so not really giving away anything. They still have their long distance world champs that they always had and an intermediate one too. 70.s and 140.6 were just never going to be of any value to them so they punted after they saw there would be an actual fight.


I really don't know who would ultimately win if they all spent millions and went to every court they could, but Ironman did have it in their title for a very long time, so maybe it would have been granted somehow. I think ultimately if ITU stuck it out they might have won, but what would they have actually won in the end for all that money? Like I said, those are dead distances to them anyway and taking world out of the Kona title would not do one single negative thing to the actual race or its allure.


Fight the actual battles that matter, not the ones you just think you can win without actually winning anything..
Quote Reply

Prev Next