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MLK
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After reading a few posts on another thread re. MLK....I thought it would be appropriate to mention that if anyone is ever in the Atlanta area...its worth a visit to his museum and church. The park ranger (it is a national monument) at the church actually marched with King and is very passionate with every presentation. The museum is worth a visit just to people watch, as blacks are in tears, and whites (myself included) are somewhat ashamed to even be there. (sorry if not PC) The pictures and exhibits are a history lesson in themselves. The guy went to Memphis knowing he was gonna get shot....but he was willing to die rather than be afraid...what a man.
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Re: MLK [imanbri] [ In reply to ]
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The ONLY MLK thing that I have ever seen that altered the way I thought about this...is the time Al Roker went to Africa and learned about the slave trade there. In Africa blacks were selling blacks to the slave traders. Dont for a second think that only whites are the guilty parties here. It seems odd that the idiot civil rights zelots are so quick to blame white people for everything - and not give credit to the other blacks in Africa who kidnapped and sold their ancestors into slavery. I guess it is easier for Al Sharpton, Carol Mosley (the looser) Braun, Farrakahan (how ever you spell that idiots name), and Jessie (Where is the Camera) Jackson to deny that there could have been any possiblity that black natives of African countries were at all part of the slave trade.

Another shame was pointed out to me by a buddy who happens to be African American...born in South Africa even...He is not at all able to apply for ANY "African American" grants, school programs, loans, or what not...being born in South Africa does not count if you are born white. I mean hell, he is more "African American" than any black person I have ever met.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: MLK [Record10ti] [ In reply to ]
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I am eager to have Jaylew and Muscle.boy's opinion on your post...
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Re: MLK [Record10ti] [ In reply to ]
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I said in another thread that IMO the slave trade was more embarassing for Africans than for Americans ... but don't use that to justify what Americans did. A bigger wrong does not make a lesser wrong correct.

I'm white and have never been embarrassed of slavery. Heck I didn't own any slaves and neither did my dad. To look at all white people as "slave masters" or contributors to slavery is very racist ... the type of thing we try to get away from.

The buyer and seller of drugs are criminals.

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As for MLK. I guess I'm different. I never viewed him as solely a "black leader". He preached that we should just "get along" and that we were all "brothers and sisters, and we should act like it". I thought of him as a "bringer together of people". I thought his message was more of a "ignore my skin, and get to know me, you might like me".

To me he was a social leader and a civil-rights activists. I have friends that call it a "N---- Holiday", but I've never felt that way, and I tell my friends that they're FOS. To regulate MLK to being just for "one group of people" is (IMO) to completely miss his message.

Someone posted info regarding the "secret life" of MLK. Not sure if that is true or not, but his actions behind the scenes do not diminish his message or impact. When people talk about Thomas Jefferson they don't start off with "Y'know he used to have sex with the female slaves."

"Like or dislike for who I am, not what I am". (i.e. personality vs. appearance) Essentially isn't that what it comes down to.

As for the "sit ins" and other stuff that were deemed (by the article) as an invasion of private property. All I can say is he's much more lenient than I would have been. I would have showed up to the white house 1 million strong with guns, demanding my rights then and there. It would have literally been a "give me liberty or give me death" situation .... and if I die you're coming with me, so you'd better be willing to die for your cause, b/c I am for mine. It's sad that it took all that just to get our own country to abide by its own documents.

His impact, regardless of what went on in his private life is immeasurable, at least in America.

I don't know that the computer (or any material goods, technology, theory, etc) is above of equal treatment for citizens. Actually, I do know. PC's are insignificant to the treatment of others.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: MLK [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. The slave trade was a horrendous chapter in human history, African, European and American. However, I don't know that you can really say that any party was better or worse than any other party during that period, it was all simply wrong. Over 4 million dead on the slave ships says enough.

In the US, the last vestiges of slavery (ie legislated racism) were not stripped away until the 60's. So 40 years later, here were are, and clearly not enough time has passed to repair the wrongs. That will take a lot longer to bring everyone back to where everyone is truly equal.

I don't think that anyone living today needs to be directly embarrassed for slavery, but segregation is another issue. There does need to be some kind of acknowledgement that slavery / segregation has disadvantaged millions of people, and by and large whites were the ones who profited. In my view, if you don't speak out against an injustice, you are therefore condoning it, and to that extent, perhaps some should be 'embarrassed'.
Last edited by: jasonk: Jan 19, 04 14:02
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Re: MLK [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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Silence does not mean acceptance ... but they sure do sound the same.

"Never tire of doing what is right". I don't know what Bible verse it is, but it's one I try to live by.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: MLK [Record10ti] [ In reply to ]
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I don't exactly follow how Al Roker in Africa qualifies as an "MLK thing". Did it air on MLK day?

Really now, what is the source of your anger and bitterness? How are causes opposed to racism, opposed to segregation, opposed to discrimination, and championing equal rights under the law somehow all invalidated because you're convinced there hasn't been suitable proclamations of African culpability in the slave trade?

I'll be the first to admit I'm not a history expert, but I'm fairly certain that MLK did not devote his life to the assessment of blame for slavery. In his lifetime, in his country, people were legally prevented from voting, from attending public schools, from eating in restaurants, from using drinking fountains, discriminated against and judged all on the basis of the "color of their skin" and not by "the content of their character." He spoke eloquently and persuasively against violence when others were speaking eloquently and persuasively for violence. He dreamt of inclusion and the promise of America.

'I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."'

I challenge you to read the full text of the "I Have A Dream" speech with a calm and open mind.
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Re: MLK [Record10ti] [ In reply to ]
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I am just re-reading your last paragraph...
Wouldn't you think this is so ironic that a white
south-african now living in the US gets a grant specially created for black people???
You would write a similar post changing black with jews, and white with nazis and someone would call you a revisionit.

You know perfectly well that the only reason people use the expression "african-american" is to avoid the word "black" and it's (for some people) pejorative meaning..
Your friend is a white dude in america...he is not part of a minority group is he? oh yes, he is a south-african is what you are going to tell me...so heck, I could apply for a minority group research grant as well...makes sense...Heck, I am half aussie, I should have tried to apply for a aborigene grant too!
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Re: MLK [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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Im not embarrassed of slavery, never even mentioned it in my post. Looking at some awful pics of lynched and beaten black men from the 50's can make a middle aged white guy feel a bit privileged....maybe thats just me.
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Re: MLK [Record10ti] [ In reply to ]
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  How dare you use MLK day to bash prominent African American Leaders and also group the masses of Africans into supporting the slave trade. Ignorance is the true case for prejudice!! "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King. You may actually mean well and not be truly filled with what seems to be spite and loathing. It was not the Africans who sold other Africans into slavery, it was African Kings and royalty. Most Africans had no idea that their brothers and sisters were being shipped to another continent.

No one has said that "white men" are the only guilty parties in the situation. But MLK was not about guilty parties. One of his motto's was

"Life's most persistent and urgent question is, 'What are you doing for others?' "

Martin Luther King was not a great "black" speaker. He was a great speaker, person, and family man. Record10ti, I do not know you personally but I have read from your postings that you speak on subjects with passion. I humbly wish you would take your pent up passion on this issue, actually read about the life and work of Martin Luther King, then understand that today is not about bashing whites, men, or any other entity.

Jimmy ----___"FIRELUV"___----

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Jimmy S.
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irony? [ In reply to ]
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I thought it was kinda funny today though, when MLK's wife (her name escapes me at the moment) got up and gave a passionate speech about how Marting would want us to put aside our political differences, and then a little later MLK the third (his son) got up and blasted President Bush, accusing him of all sorts of different political issues.

About the bestquote I've seen though was on TV today. Some African American author was being interviewed, and she came out, wished everyone a happy MLK day, and then continued by saying,
"You know, I don't know why everybody gets out of school and off work for this holiday. Wasn't the very thing King was fighting for was the right for equal chance in jobs, schools, and society? So I'm celebrating MLK day today, by working."
Granted all she was doing for work was talking on some TV show, but I thought she did state a pretty good point.

Rest in Peace Mr. King.
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Re: MLK [fireluv] [ In reply to ]
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for someone so big on deffending moral characterand moral personality, (something that MLK, like many of todays self procalimed black leaders, lacked. Unless cheating on your wife, womanizing, and lying are are acceptable moral standards), it certaintly is ironic that you look to Genghis Khan for inspiration.
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Re: MLK [Ben in FL] [ In reply to ]
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  Whom I look to for inspiration in the form of quotes does not express my true spirit as a person. I find it funny that people wish to demonize black politicians, black athletes, and minorities in general, but not also show that womanizing, lying and etc... occurs to people of all races and social classes. But I will let those who choose to live in hate and anger proceed to do so. I hope that everyone just enjoy themselves in triathlons and life in general.

Jimmy

FIRELUV
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Re: MLK [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I am eager to have Jaylew and Muscle.boy's opinion on your post...


Some really good points were already made in response, so I won't rehash those items.

I avoided reading this thread all day (sadly, the idea of reading a thread entitled 'MLK' on this forum made me shudder; I now try to avoid reading hot topics that aren't tri-related because everyone is so dogmatic), but of course I broke down.

To answer you question, I'm not in the least bit surprised by his post. This is Record we're talking about, here. Judging from his body of work, there's a lot of anger there. I only seriously consider his posts on tri-related topics, Campy rhetoric excluded ;)

"I'm white and have never been embarrassed of slavery... I said in another thread that IMO the slave trade was more embarassing for Africans than for Americans"

TripleThreat, I don't fully agree with you statement, but I don't think it's necessary for anyone today to be embarrassed of slavery. It happened long before any of us were born. The world was different then. Unfortunately it has spawned years of mistreatment, segregation, and prejudice, some of which still exists in this country, though we have made tremendous strides.

"In my view, if you don't speak out against an injustice, you are therefore condoning it, and to that extent, perhaps some should be 'embarrassed'."

"Silence does not mean acceptance ... but they sure do sound the same."

TripleThreat, jasonK, good stuff to hear. This is something that has come up frequently in my life when talking to friends and acquaintances. If you are in a group and someone make innappropriate racist statements, there are 4 obvious options:
  • laughing and/or agreeing(if that's the way you feel, cool; people know what you're about)
  • voicing your dissapproval then and there (hardest, but tops in my eyes)
  • voicing your dissapproval later
  • you dissapprove but stay silent - the assumption is that you agree. This one bothers me the most. I find it hard to respect this person.


I'm sure others will disagree and obviously I'm biased, but that's how I feel.

Happy MLK day to all.
Last edited by: jaylew: Jan 19, 04 21:33
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Re: MLK [Ben in FL] [ In reply to ]
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Whoa there, big fella. MLK never claimed himself to be perfect. We all sin, we all make mistakes. But to make so broad a statement that he lacked moral character is a 'bit' harsh, don't you think? After all, what he did, in those times, speaks volumes for his courage and conviction. He paid the ultimate sacrifice for his convictions, something that we are unlikely to ever do.
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Re: MLK [fireluv] [ In reply to ]
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i found no hate or demonization in my post, i prefer to look at life with sarcasm and humor, i don't waste my time with hatred (pissed sometimes, but not hatred). I stated common knowledge regarding many self proclaimed leaders in the black community. MLK, Jessie Jackson, The nation of islam......all not pillars of the community when it comes to being moral and honest. The people who choose to womanize, lie, cheat, etc, are not moral people and don't have honest personalities. My point is that MLK and many black "leaders" today are not moral, are you justifying there immorality on the basis that many white people are immoral too? You seem to be claiming that MLK was in fact a moral person.

<He was a great speaker, person, and family man>

The question i pose to you: does cheating on your wife, lying about it, womanizing, qualify MLK, or anyone else, white or black, as a great person and a great family man?

it's one thing to overlook MLK's weaknesses, and state that the good he brought the world outweighed his moral character. It's another to claim that he was in fact a moral person and ignore his character flaws all together.
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Re: MLK [jaylew] [ In reply to ]
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TripleThreat, I don't fully agree with you statement, but I don't think it's necessary for anyone today to be embarrassed of slavery.

At risk of drawing this out further ... I'll clarrify what I mean so it's not open to interpretation. I'll use an example.

If I mistreat my wife ... that's worse than if a stranger mistreats my wife, b/c it's my job to protect her. So, I've always been of the mind that the African government had more regret than Americans did for slavery, since it was their job to protect its own people. Whether that is a valid thought or not, I don't know ... but it seems okay to me.

In the end, neither really matters b/c both are at fault. It's like trying to decide who's the bigger A-hole, Hitler or Rommell?

Anyway, I wanted to point out that I wasn't saying black Americans or white Americans should still be embarrassed of slavery. Granted ... today ... none of us were there, none of us played a part on either side

Unfortunately it has spawned years of mistreatment, segregation, and prejudice, some of which still exists in this country, though we have made tremendous strides.

It has also presented misconceptions about what people think of each other (a bad side effect). My buddy in KC had all sorts of ideas of what I thought about black folks, and I had all sorts of ideas of what he thought about white folks (okay, the "Militant One" tattoo on his forearm didn't help me any). Turns out, once you start talking about stuff, misconceptions dissolve.

We used to kick a few back and watch All in the Family and The Jeffersons. Anytime Archie said something, "See how you white people are", and anytime George said something, "Look. You see that? Did you hear what he said?". It was a blast.

There seems to be a "caution" or "anxiousness" between races. I don't think it's fear, and in most cases it's not dislike, it's just an uneasy "I'm not used to this" type of feeling ... sort of like when you're learning to swim (possibly a horrible example). You're in the water, but it doesn't feel natural (as a result of our past). It doesn't take long for familiarity to wipe away that feeling of uneasiness, and inject a feeling of comfort. I think many of us are to that point, or very close to it.

voicing your dissapproval then and there - gold star

The way our society is with everyone with their PC radars on full tilt, it's amazing that folks still say certain things out loud. Heck, one slip up and you could be in for a career change. But once folks break into smaller groups, things are said. As the husband of a Mexicana and father of someone that is ... uh ... tanner than me ... I have no choice but to speak up. I assume if you say something about one group, you'll say something about another. So, I often point out quickly who my loved ones are when I get a sense that something is about to be said. Saying something about them is saying something about me, and I have a zero tolerance motto. I prefer to do that before a situation comes up that needs dealt with in a non-vocal manner. I can handle dislike, but stupidty pisses me off.

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I have a lot of respect for MLK on how he conducted himself in the face of adversity. I can't stand it when someone talks to me with a slightly condescending tone, I can't imagine how I would have dealt with trying to get my established rights.

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=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: MLK [Ben in FL] [ In reply to ]
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btw, i don't claim to be anything near perfect, and i while i respect what MLK accomplished publicly (i do not respect the likes of jesse jackson or the nation of islam), i am simply disputing his morality. Just like, while i may respect a lot of the things different politicians accomplish in office (Bill Clinten or GWB, i iant gonna start a flamer on that) i wouldn't claim that they were moral and great family men becuase of what they accomplished politically.
btw, i think that paying the ultimate price for your convictions doesn't necessarily play into moral character, especially when you are unwillingly assasinated (and no, im not descrediting MLK's public accomplishments at all).
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Re: MLK [Ben in FL] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
for someone so big on deffending moral characterand moral personality, (something that MLK, like many of todays self procalimed black leaders, lacked.
What is the point of the "many of today's self proclaimed black leaders" blast? Bullshit. A completely unneccessary statement.
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Re: MLK [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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I have a lot of respect for MLK on how he conducted himself in the face of adversity. I can't stand it when someone talks to me with a slightly condescending tone, I can't imagine how I would have dealt with trying to get my established rights.


You're right. I'll lose the gold star remark.

Lord knows, we can always count on Ryan for a long, thought-out response on any non-tri topic ;)

Just being a smart-ass, Triple.
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Re: MLK [Ben in FL] [ In reply to ]
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Last post before I go to bed. The point I was trying to make, perhaps just not very well, is that morality goes far beyond whether you cheated on your spouse or not. I think that courage to do what is right is an important part of someones moral character as well.

In those times, did MLK know that there was a very good chance that he could or would be killed for his views? I would guess that he understood perfectly that he was putting himself, and his family, in danger. He felt that it was more important to fight for equal rights than self-preservation. That speaks volumes about the man's morals.
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Re: MLK [jaylew] [ In reply to ]
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ok, instead of just saying "Bullshit" prove me otherwise,
Jessie Jackson, im willing to bet he thinks of himself as a leader in the black community. womanizing (the moron didn't even use birth control when he was cheating on his wife, so now he's got a nice permanent reminder of his hypocrisy runnin around), using donations to his foundation to support his mistress and their kid, playing the race card to extort companies and get out of court settlements, thinks that Colin Powell is a slave for being conservative, and has done nothing to unite races, only to divide.
The Nation Of Islam,
Recruits helpless prisoners and drug addicts, often initially with drugs, is extremely racsit (white people are the devil, white people cannot be good humanbeings, white people are going to hell), is financially corrupt, assasinated one of its own (anyone remember malcom X) when he saw the light and realized that the nation of islam is a manipulative, corrupt, and rascist organiztion.
Get off your PC High Horse and fall back to reality
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Re: MLK [Ben in FL] [ In reply to ]
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My last post before I go on a night run and hit the sack. Morality is in the eye of the beholder. Morals will vary from nation to nation, religion to religion, man to woman, person to person. Am I making excuses for his cheating on his wife? No, but how many of our heroes do you think would stand up to intense scrutiny of every detail of their private lives? Who else do we have holidays for? Lincoln, Columbus, Washington? I'm sure I can come up with an example that showed each of them to be "immoral" in some way, by someone's definition. Forget what he did for us, he cheated on his wife. He wasn't a great man. One thing doesn't have anything to do with the other.

Was he a great man? IMO, yes, even if he maybe wasn't a great family man.

BTW, feel free to discount anything I've said or done. I'm definitely not a moral person. I've told more than one lie in the course of my life. I cheated on a girlfriend several years ago. I've tried drugs.
Last edited by: jaylew: Jan 20, 04 14:33
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Re: MLK [Ben in FL] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, so I lied.

I don't give a rats ass about the NOI. I have mixed feelings on Jesse. My point was that your statement was an unneccesary one. Why did you feel the need? BTW, there are many other black leaders out there. I won't even respond to the PC blast. It's too funny to me.
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Re: MLK [jaylew] [ In reply to ]
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atleast you have some sense of humor and sarcasm, that's a good thing
if you check my post, i make a clear distinction between someone's private character flaws and someones public or poilitical accomplishments. I stressed this point pretty hard, i don't know why you are choosing to overlook it.
The deffinition of morality varies as widely as you state, i agree with you.
political and public figures know that there lives are going to be under the microscope. To have committed acts in the past, before you are under the public eye, admit that, and move on practicing what you preach is one thing. To go around doing morally questionable (you like that better:) acts and behavior patterns while you are under public scrutiny demonstrates at the very least very poor moral judgement and stupidity.
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