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Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive".
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I devote a lot of thought to this topic.

There is an commonly held belief that a lower bike position, especially in the front end, is faster.

This is based on the supposition that a low body position is more aerodyanmic and has lower drag (same thing).

The problem with this thinking is that it is myopic and does not consider the entire envelope of performance within which a triathlete races a bike.

Let's consider these ideas: Dave is a strong age group triathlete who can average 22 m.p.h on a rolling triathlon bike course. To average this 22 m.p.h. he will ride at speeds that vary between a maximum of 34 m.p.h. on a moderate descent in light winds to only about 12 m.p.h. on the toughest climb on the course. At the top end of the envelope (34 m.p.h.) aerodynamics is an important consideration along with stability (influenced in part by frame geometry and rider weight distribution). At the bottom end of the envelope (12 m.p.h.) aerodynamics is a greatly diminished factor. Power output and the biomechanical features of the rider's position on the bike become the predominant determining factor in speed a the lower end of the envelope. This is critical because, assuming the course ends where it starts (net elevation gain/loss is zero) Dave will spend more time grinding up a hill at 12 m.p.h. than speeding down it at 34 m.p.h.

This only speaks to the opposite ends of the envelope; fastest and slowest. It's the middle where the most gains will likely be made since that is where you spend most of the time overall- in the middle of the speed envelope.

In the center of the speed envelope a balance of aerodynamics, handling (stability, being able to look up the road comfortably, being able to corner at speed, being able to use water bottles and reach jersey pockets for nutrition) and power output will result in the optimal performance. If any one element is out of balance the position isn't optimized over the entire distance.

We frequently see the thinking that "I need to get lower to go faster". This may not make you faster. It may make you slower in the real world.

When people look at Lance Armstrong's time trial position


They often remark at how high and rounded his posture looks. He may be the most wind tunnel tested athlete in history. He is also one of the athletes to use power measurement as a basis for setting up his position.

The axiom that seems to have risen from the integration of power output data and wind tunnel data is that you should never sacrifice one watt of pawer output to save one gram of drag.

The use of the vernacular "aggressive" usually is used to describe a lower position as though it is somehow overall faster. Often times it absolutely is not.
I'd sure like to hear people say things like "I want to get my position more efficient" than hearing them say, "I want my position to be more aggressive".

I'm interested to read your thoughts and comments.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I agree 100%.
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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No...No..Say it isn't so :)

jaretj
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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interesting you talk about this...Since i started in this sport a yr ago and been on here since May, i had the belief that lower was more "aggressive". If being lower isnt necessarily more "efficient" then a lot of us will have to add a spacer or two under our base bars lol...


"The axiom that seems to have risen from the integration of power output data and wind tunnel data is that you should never sacrifice one watt of pawer output to save one gram of drag. "

My question regarding this statement is, for the average age grouper who cant get into a wind tunnel or a lab. How are we supposed to get wind tunnel data to make sure we dont sacrifice one watt of power output to save on gram of drag?

Am i understanding this right?



"Fear is what drives you in the last part of a marathon in an Ironman. The body is depleted and the mind is fuzzy. Short course racing is driven by power and finese at the end of a race, Ironman demands so much more and is driven by will and mental strength." Chris McCormack

10/28/08 Dev Paul had 400w FTP!!!
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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"...you should never sacrifice one watt of pawer output to save one gram of drag. "

Is it okay to sacrifice one watt of power output to save one pound of drag?

---------------------------------------------------------

"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [jackattack] [ In reply to ]
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Would such a relationship even be possible at even the highest bike speeds?

Even if it could, my inclination would be to say probably not. Tha math and physics of this relationship reward economy at the low end of the envelope, and charge a premium for gains at the high end.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
The axiom that seems to have risen from the integration of power output data and wind tunnel data is that you should never sacrifice one watt of pawer output to save one gram of drag.

Well as we know Speed on a flat course is a strong function of (W/CdA) or Watts/drag if you will ... and seeing the Watts scale runs to around 400 (or less) while the drag scale runs to around 3000 (or higher, at 30 mph) ....

Do the math and sure it'd be asinine to sacrifice ONE Watt for ONE gram of drag.

Change that to say 8g or higher and there might be something to argue about.
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [rmur] [ In reply to ]
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What about at 21 m.p.h.? I have to concede here- I am not good enough at math and physics to have much more than a rudimentary understanding of these interactions.

From experience trying to get faster on the bike from positioning I haven't seen gains by lowering my front end- usually I see worse results. I have seen gains by optimizing measured power output though. Sometimes rather hefty ones.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [rmur] [ In reply to ]
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But position and power are also a function of the angles on the machine??? A pro cyclist is restricted by UCI limits as to where the nose of the saddle is in a vertical line realtion to the center of the BB spindle. A triathlete is not, and may find a more powerful/efficient position for him/herself in a lower position.

Let's also take "Dave" on a flatter course with less rolling and more flats. If he averages 22 on a rolling course, chances are that he will average close to 23 - 24 in the same distance on the flat course. At this point where the speed is more consistent as well as being faster, then being in a more powerful position and more aero is much more critical.

While I wholeheartedly agree that on a tougher rolling course that being efficient and powerful in all conditions, especially sitting up out of the aero climbing, is important, the fact is that most tri courses are NOT that technically challenging and tend to be on the flatter side. So the aero component is much more important. And for courses like Eagleman and Florida that are bone flat, it becomes even more critical to maintain a powerful and aero position that the athlete can hold for the duration.

Agree? Disagree?

_____________________________________________
Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Daremo] [ In reply to ]
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Agree.... but only a little.

Consider my position as a fellow who sells bikes. I'm trying to moderate the conflicting requirements of getting a customer positioned so they will have a good race and be comfortable over a wide variety of terrains. They may be doing the slightly rolling local Ann Arbor Triathlon, they may be doing the board flat local Sylvania Triathlon and they may also be travelling to the relatively rolling Ford Ironman Wisconsin or Ford Ironman Lake Placid.

So, I am not excited by concessions to fitting that isolate onlly one type of terrain and are optimized for that- unless of course a customer specifies such an orientation.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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But I thought you liked Bjorn.

----------
Fortitudine Vincimus
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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You're right...lower isn't necessarily faster. Just as higher isn't necessarily faster either.

To borrow a term from Mr. Willett (with a nod to the artist formerly known as "Paulo")...Faster is faster!


Or, as has been pointed out before on the subject of aerodynamic fitting, it really IS a highly individual thing.

Just my 2 centavos ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Are we talking about positioning done once or a process in which the rider and the position interact over time? If you're talking about the 1 off fit for a customer buying a bike who you will likely not see again, I don't see how you would do anything but fit for comfort and power. Now, if the rider is willing to experiment, and I use the word literally, and the rider has access to the needed tools, like a power meter, there is no reason not to see how a lower front end might increase their speed. I lowered my front end last year dramatically and gave up power in the process. I also know from testing the position that it was still faster than the old more powerful position, particularly after a period of adaptation.

Jason
Dig It Triathlon and Multisport
http://www.digittri.com
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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OK call me completely ignorant on the subject, which I pretty much am, but isn't this a rather simple and unique to each athlete, math problem.

"X" Watts = "Y" Drag @ "Z" speed. The way BOP'r doing an uphill TT is going to benefit far more, to a point, by optimizing the watts side of the equation as he'll be traveling pretty very slow. The FOP downhill TT'r will benefit more from the drag side of the equation.

Everyone else will lies in between somewhere.

Not trying to tell you how to do your job but it would seem to me that "Bike fit" will also be a function of usage. IOW there is likely no perfect bike fit unless the person is doing only one race on one course all the time. Likely a flat sprint tri guy is going to have a slightly different fit than a Hilly IM guy all other things equal...In my completely uneducated opinion.

~Matt
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I think you're making positioning out to be much more static than it really is. I've seen lots of pictures of myself during events, and I'll look completely different on the bike depending on where the photo is taken.

When climbing up a 16mph sorta grade, it's still faster to be on the aero bars--but it's not faster to give up watts for position, so I'll choke up on the bars (a lot). On a flat or downhill or headwind section, I'll stay as low as possible--and I'll give up wattage to do it.

Blanket statements like 'never trade watts for grams' make as little sense as 'never give up grams for watts'. It's entirely situational. However, you can always get higher on the bike simply by shortening your reach on the extensions (unless you're really cramped to begin with--and even then you can more your elbows to the sides of your knees). You can't, on the other hand, get much lower than the lowest position you bike set-up allows.

People need to get past this myth that the setup on the trainer/in the mirror is the ONLY position that your bike fit affords. If that's true, your bike fit probably sucks.
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Agree.... but only a little.

Consider my position as a fellow who sells bikes. I'm trying to moderate the conflicting requirements of getting a customer positioned so they will have a good race and be comfortable over a wide variety of terrains. They may be doing the slightly rolling local Ann Arbor Triathlon, they may be doing the board flat local Sylvania Triathlon and they may also be travelling to the relatively rolling Ford Ironman Wisconsin or Ford Ironman Lake Placid.

So, I am not excited by concessions to fitting that isolate onlly one type of terrain and are optimized for that- unless of course a customer specifies such an orientation.

Once again, I agree there. As someone who would fit and sell bikes (for 5 years) in the past I could appreciate that. But I also would verify what the customer was looking for and if they wanted something with a lower (arguably more aerodynamic) position with differeng geometries I would give it to them to the best of the frames ability. I also think that if it was a one and done situation that they would let me know what they were looking to do and I'd make suggestions that might help them in a general situation. However, the people who usually came to me to have them fit in such a case were usually on the faster side and wanted (for lack of a better name) what people call an "aggressive" position. And this was in the 90's. Times and designs have changed making it much easier to attain those positions.

But we did not have the resources available then to see if the customer made more power or was faster without them going out and doing a TT and coming back and getting their position tweaked.

I set up my own position and because I'm relatively tall, the lower position has worked well for me with all my averages in the 23 and up range. Could I be better positioned?? Sure maybe, but I don't use a power meter and my results have been solid considering the lack of miles I put in compared to everyone else at the same speeds (probably about half the mileage). :shrugs:

_____________________________________________
Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib
Last edited by: Daremo: Oct 24, 07 13:08
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Not to complicate matters, but why don't you bring position adaptation into the equation.

As age group triathletes, we have the benefit of being able to play around in many different positions, Mr Armstrong, not so much.
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [roady] [ In reply to ]
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I have a friend that kinda sums up your post as the "Karma Sutra Of biking". His opinion is that even on flat course the guy that alters his position every now and then will outlast the guy that holds the same position all the time...if for no other reason that the guys but won't get as sore as quick :-).

~Matt
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Tom,

I think that using the term 'efficient' over the word 'aggressive' to define a 'Faster' position is a better one, but that being said, an 'agressive' position is only slower if the other two factors you mention are deminished - ie a lower front end will reduce drag, but should never be accomplished at the cost of power or comfort.

I also think that the term 'efficiency' can only be measured when you can quantify at least two of the variables - comfort and for most of us watts (since most don't have ready access to a wind tunnel). Without the measurement of power or drag, you can't ever really say the 'most comfortable position' will be fastest, or most efficient (I may be more comfortable in an upright slack position, but may infact be producing less watts with more drag) .

Of course 'comfort' is relative to distance as well, and will mean different things to differnt people.

My bottom line is Agressive does not necessarly mean faster, but I don't think that you can really talk Efficiency without measured data like power and drag.

This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

The axiom that seems to have risen from the integration of power output data and wind tunnel data is that you should never sacrifice one watt of pawer output to save one gram of drag.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot about this one...Says who?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
We frequently see the thinking that "I need to get lower to go faster". This may not make you faster. It may make you slower in the real world.

When people look at Lance Armstrong's time trial position


They often remark at how high and rounded his posture looks. He may be the most wind tunnel tested athlete in history.
Bad example: Armstrong wasn't particularly aerodynamic. That's apparently one of the reasons why he didn't go after the hour record.
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

From experience trying to get faster on the bike from positioning I haven't seen gains by lowering my front end- usually I see worse results. I have seen gains by optimizing measured power output though. Sometimes rather hefty ones.
Tom, I thought that you were not sold on the 'whole power thing'. I coudl have sworn that I read some where here a wile ago that you did not see the value of a powermeter. Or did I read/remember that wrong? Did yu mean that yo did not see the value of Training with power as opposed to having a position Optimized with power?

This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.
Last edited by: Ti T'war: Oct 24, 07 13:20
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [MJuric] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
isn't this a rather simple and unique to each athlete, math problem
Wait a sec...I thought bicycle racing could NOT be reduced to a math problem?!? ;-)
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
We frequently see the thinking that "I need to get lower to go faster". This may not make you faster. It may make you slower in the real world.

When people look at Lance Armstrong's time trial position


They often remark at how high and rounded his posture looks. He may be the most wind tunnel tested athlete in history.
Bad example: Armstrong wasn't particularly aerodynamic. That's apparently one of the reasons why he didn't go after the hour record.

Yup...and it's also documented that he (and his...err..."trainer") weren't too keen on giving up any wattage, even if the overall package was faster. Hence the scrapping of the "narrow bike" concept as described in Dan Coyle's book.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Lower isn't faster. And let's stop using the term "aggressive". [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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thank you.

please point this out at every opportunity to anyone racing in the M35-39 AG.
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