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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Two very simple answers to your "caveman" question:

Cavemen/women rarely lived longer than what we now consider to be "midlife".

They started to endure physical stress as soon as they popped out the womb.


So, there is no defined line, but depending on the individual there is a zone, and me thinks the current model of "X minutes/hours of MODERATE INTENSITY excercise per day" isn't that far off.

___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [indygreg] [ In reply to ]
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When doing a normal bloodscreening there´s also indications on liverstatus, right?

Don´t we have any doctors on board?

I´m very aware of all the "risks" with overdoing things but I´m specifically interested in this statement with the liver being overloaded by free radicals etc
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [Jonas] [ In reply to ]
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I cannot speak to that exactly, but some have written this thought process:
One of the biggest source of free radicals we encounter is in the air, pollution and all. As an endurance athlete we breath much more of outdoor air for longer periods of time.
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [Jonas] [ In reply to ]
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"His argument was that the huge amounts of free radicals produced through exercise,"

This is a widely accepted hypothesis, though nobody has been able to directly show this in live organisms.
He probalby meant to say (muscle breakdown products --- free radicals genereated within a cell would never reach your liver through the bloodstream.

He probably means to say that in the process of de-toxifying your blood, the liver cells get extremely damaged. If he talks about Radicals produced in the liver itself:
Liver cells however have been known to be highly regenerative, and their suceptibility to radicals is thought to be much smaller compared to other tissues (muscle, nerves). Liver is also a highly regenerative organ, meaning it has (to some extend) the capacity to "rejuvenate".

If he claims straight up that all the liver damage results from free radicals: I do not think that this is the case. Most of the liver damage can probably be accounted for by other chronic stresses incured during intense exercise (muscle/ joint breakdown products and waste that is removed through your blood and reaches the liver through the bloodstream).


All in all, I would be careful to "trash" this guys arguments (if he has some credentials, knowledge in the field that you do not have at this point).

___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [Jonas] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [125kart] [ In reply to ]
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I'm no Doctor,but I had Hep C and when the doctors found out my liver enzymes were 5x higher than normal.

After a year of treatment I was back doing I.M. again. My liver enzymes get better each year and usually take my bloodtest right after the race just to see if racing causes any changes.

Aloha
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [Jonas] [ In reply to ]
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I can't comment on the nutritionist's arguments or hypotheses, but I can offer my own experience. In 2006, while prepping for IM CdA, I went in for (what I thought was going to be) a routine physical. After the day after doing the pre-physical blood work-up, I get a call from my doctor telling me to come in immediately. Turned out my liver function tests were through the roof (for reference, the normal range for ALT, one of the liver enzymes, was something like 20-65, with a reading of 100 usually being enough to cause a doctor concern -- my levels were around 1800). After undergoing test after test, six months of weekly blood tests to track my liver functions, and ultimately a liver biopsy, they determined the cause to be a toxic reaction to something I ingested. Essentially, something had poisoned me.

With no immediate, clear-cut answer prior to that point, though, I started doing my own research, trying to figure out whether somehow my IM training had something to do with it. After all, there were clear upticks in the liver function tests after especially hard workouts and races. One of the things I found was a series of studies performed on marathon runners. The studies definitively indicated that liver enzyme levels were elevated significantly (though nowhere my levels) post-race, reaching a peak a couple of days post-race, then normalizing within a week-and-a-half to two weeks after the event. I can't remember whether there was a mechanism proposed or identified, but I also recall reading that AST (the other primary liver enzyme measured in blood tests) can be elevated following breakdown in both skeletal muscle and cardiac muscle. In the studies conducted on marathon runners, the AST displayed higher relative elevations than the ALT, which would be consistent with the muscle breakdown incurred during a marathon.

I can't find the link to the studies in my records any more, but it was easily found during a PubMed search. The study didn't cover long-term effects or the effects of repeated "injury."

The one other thing I might mention is that I did also find reference to "overdosing" on antioxidants (vitamin A, vitamin C, etc.). There are recommended daily allowances, but there are also essentially maximum daily allowances (thresholds above which the micronutrients actually become toxic to the body). The example I recall reading about specifically related to the use of Airborne, the cold/flu defense remedy. If one were to follow the dosage recommendations, it would result in taking something like 8-10 times the MAXIMUM daily allowance. Followed long-term, this could definitely result in a hepatotoxic reaction and potential liver damage.

cramer
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [125kart] [ In reply to ]
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This is a good thread and I thought the Mark Sisson article linked to was one of the best articles on Slowtwitch.

I wonder if a middle ground is doing shorter races and training in the 7-12 hour per week range and including strength training. I must say that I feel overall healthier since switching from long course to short course last year. The difference between 7-12 hours per week versus 10-15 hours per week is huge.
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [Jonas] [ In reply to ]
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To my knowledge, no one has ever received a liver transplant because they ran too many marathons or raced too many IMs. Comparing the liver of an aged endurance athlete to that of an alcoholic is ludicrous. There is a specific toxicity to the liver caused by acute and chronic alcohol use that results in first inflammation and fatty deposition and later scarring, also called cirrhosis. There are many underlying causes of liver disease that go undiagnosed in the general population including Hepatitis C, autoimmune hepatitis, hemochromatosis, non-alcoholic hepatic steatosis (NASH) etc that can also lead to cirrhosis. Overingestion of fat soluble vitamins, NSAIDs, acetaminophen and other supplements and medications can be hepatotoxic. Hypotension if severe enough can lead to ischemic hepatitis but this would be unusual even during grueling exercise. So relax about the liver damage but do pay close attention to the vitamins, minerals, supplements and medications you ingest. You have a better chance of becoming ugly and old than you do of going into liver failure from endurance sports.
Last edited by: LittleRingMan: Mar 28, 08 8:54
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [LittleRingMan] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. Being that I was injecting cocaine and Heroin from 17-22. I seriously doubt that Ironman does that much damage to your liver. I did alot of research on liver disease and Hep c and all the expert doctors told me to go for it once I was finished with my treatment.

In fact if I was not doing triathlons I might not have found out until I had liver cancer.

One thing that is for sure I will probable never do a 10:40 again in Kona but at least I can still compete in shorter races in my age group.

I can also still have some of the top times in our bi-annual lifeguard test and Iam going against some of the best waterman in the state.
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [Jon] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
This is a good thread and I thought the Mark Sisson article linked to was one of the best articles on Slowtwitch.

I wonder if a middle ground is doing shorter races and training in the 7-12 hour per week range and including strength training. I must say that I feel overall healthier since switching from long course to short course last year. The difference between 7-12 hours per week versus 10-15 hours per week is huge.
This is what I do. I typically put in 7-10 hours a week right now which includes strength training. I have never felt better. I typically limit myself to 2 hours at a time as a max for training or race. Group bike rides are an exception to this as are some brick days, but more often than not I stick to it. Now I may do 3 or 4 hours on the same day, but odds are I am taking a few hours off in between. I am not saying this is what anyone else should do by any means. Just what I do. I do not chose this out of fear of liver damage or anything else negative like that. It is about all the time I can spend on this at this point in my life. And the results fit into my goals, which are to be fit and strong and all around athletic. I know I could be faster and could race better with more and different work.
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [indygreg] [ In reply to ]
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I was very surprised to see a PRO IM athlete coming on board and asking a health related question (good on ya!), I've trained with the best athletes in the world, pros and age groupers, and as a coach I still see a lot of motivated age-groupers willing to do what it takes with their body to achieve their dreams, IT CAN BE SCARY.

Triathlon is highly addictive, its a lifestyle and passion and one who is "in love" is half blind for important and rationable aspects of life (be the passion in religion, politics or SOCCER!!), the thing is, I don't think that many athletes here are willing to back up their training load/racing, when someone in a white coat says it is doing them more harm than good (be it right or wrong), they will always think it will never happen with me, trust me, one day, it might ;-)

Vinnie

--
Vinnie Santana, Multisport Coach
http://www.ironguides.net
* * * Your best is our business. * * *
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [vinnie] [ In reply to ]
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The subject of antioxidants and oxidative stress, as they pertain to endurance sports, is a particular passion and (healthy) obsession for me, so I though I'd share some meta-analysis on the subject. Sorry it is so long. Think of it as a comprehensive look inside the cell of the endurance athlete.


[..] Much research in the last decade has been done on how exercise, at high intensities or long duration, can overload the above defenses, thereby allowing elevated OS. Free Radical Biology and Medicine, 36(8): 966-975, 2004, reveals that intense exercise increases OS in humans due to a 10 to 20-fold increase in whole body oxygen consumption and up to a 200 fold increase in exercising-muscle oxygen consumption. While the majority of the oxygen used in the metabolic process is transformed to water, 2-5% is converted to superoxide anion, a ROS, which in turn is transformed into hydrogen peroxide and then hydroxyl radicals, the most destructive of ROS. This process of ROS production is known “Electron Leakage.” ( Journal of Cerebral Blood Flow & Metabolism /v18/n2).
Another mechanism by with ROS are generated during physical exertion is by way of ischemia-reperfusion, systemically and locally. High-intensity exercise leads to local muscle ischemia, as contracting muscles force out blood. When the muscle relaxes, oxygenated blood flows back in, the re-oxygenation which takes place when exercise stops results in a burst of ROS. (Pflugers Arch. 2006 Apr;452(1):109-16. Epub 2006 Jan 10.) Systemically, redistribution of blood to the working muscles results in hypoxia within the kidneys and in the region of the liver and spleen. Again, when intensity lowers or cessation of activity occurs, the reperfusion results in ROS production. (Biomedical and Life Sciences Volume 20, Number 2 / April, 1997).
Another mechanism by which ROS production may be increased during exercise is by way of auto-oxidation of catecholamines (adrenaline, noradrenalin) which generates a superoxide anion radical (Life Sci 1999;65:915–24) (Braz J Med Biol Res, June 1998, Volume 31(6) 827-833).

[..] An external manifestation to the increased OS (Oxidative stress) and subsequent cellular degradation and glycosylation is particularly evident in the appearances of Ironman level triathletes, Tour de France level cyclists and marathoners et al. Leanness and muscularity notwithstanding, as a group these athletes appear many years older than they are, as a result of increased and prolonged OS surpassing the bodies natural antioxidant defenses. Excessive exposure to sunlight is also a contributing factor to said aged appearance (photoaging). Ironically or not, photoaging itself is a result of UV induced dermal oxidative stress.

From an athletic standpoint, OS plays a part in limits to ultimate strength and endurance capacity and serial repeatability of activity. As far back as 1982 (Davies et al.1) we have known that a bout of exercise can increase free radical concentration with damage to mitochondria in muscle. Sjodin B, et al.2, while investigating sources of muscle soreness and damage associated with exercise, concluded that during exercise semiquinone in the mitochondria and xanthine oxidase in the capillary endothelial cells are generated at a greatly increased rate, which may exceed the capacity of the cellular defense system, may lead to a loss of cell viability and to cell necrosis and could initiate the skeletal muscle damage and inflammation caused by exhaustive exercise.
A step further, Marzatico3, et al., found that both strenuous long distance exercise and exhaustive sprint training overwhelm our capacity to detoxify ROS and concluded that an adequate supply of antioxidants could be appropriate.

Ji4 demonstrated that in the skeletal muscle, an isolated load of exhaustive work produced an increase on the lipoperoxidation and a significant increase in activity of the antioxidant enzymes glutathione reductase, GPx, SOD and CAT was significantly increased. A few years later Ji and Leeuwenburgh5 conclude that GSH homeostasis is essential for the prooxidant-antioxidant balance during prolonged physical exercise. In a later study6, Ji concluded that exercise induced ROS pose a serious threat to the cellular antioxidant defense system, such as diminished reserves of antioxidant vitamins and glutathione, and increased tissue susceptibility to oxidative damage. Thus, the balance between pro-oxidants and antioxidants suggests that supplementation of antioxidants can be desirable for physically active individuals under certain physiological conditions by providing a larger protective margin.

Palazzetti et al.7 submitted triathletes to increased training loads, which caused significant elevation of urinary adrenaline and CK plasmatic activity in rest. From Mehta, et al.,8 we know that adrenaline is one instigator of the superoxide anion generation. However, Palazzetti showed through various markers, that that overload impairs the antioxidant defense mechanisms related to exercise-induced response. Runners seem particularly susceptible to OS. Briviba et al.9 found among half-marathon and marathon runners, a decrease in antioxidant capacity and a statistically significant increase in the levels of oxidative DNA damage in lymphocytes. Manchefer et al.10 studied extreme distance runners at The Marathon of Sands, and concluded the run induced a significant alteration of the blood antioxidant defense capacity. In studying underwater rugby players, Cavas11 concluded that underwater rugby can stimulate over-production of ROS and antioxidant systems and affect oestradiol (estrogen) levels in male players, and that complex antioxidant supplementation including co-factors of antioxidant enzymes such as Cu, Zn, Fe, Se and antioxidant vitamins such as vitamin C and E may be recommended to players before the UWR game.


1. Davies KJA, Quintanilha AT, Brooks GA, Packer L. Free radicals and tissue damage produced by exercise. Biochem Biophys Res Commun 1982;vol.107, pp. 1198-205.
2. Sjodin B, Hellsten Westing Y, Apple FS., “Biochemical mechanisms for oxygen free radical formation during exercise.” Sports Med. 1990 Oct; 10(4):236-54.
3 Marzatico et al., “Blood free radical antioxidant enzymes and lipid peroxides following long-diatance and lactademic performances in highly trained aerobic and sprint athletes.” J Sports Med Phys Fitness, vol. 37, No. 4, pp.235-9 1997 Dec.
4 Ji LL, Fu R. Responses of glutathione system and antioxidant enzymes to exhaustive exercise and hydroperoxide. J Appl Physiol, vol.72, pp. 549-54 1992
5 Leeuwenburgh C, Ji LL, “Glutathione depletion in rested and exercised mice: biochemical consequence and adaptation.” Arch Biochem Biophys, 1;316(2):941-9,1995 Feb.
6 J LL, “Antioxidants and oxidative stress in exercise.” Proc Soc Exp Biol Med. 1999 Dec;222(3):283-92.
7 Palazzetti S, Richard M-J, Favier A, Margaritis I, “Overloaded training increases exercise-induced oxidative stress and damage.” Can J Appl Physiol, vol.28, pp. 588-604, 2003
8 Mehta JL, Li D, “Epinephrine upregulates superoxide dismutase in human coronary artery endothelial cells.” Free Radic Biol Med. Vol 30, No. 2, pp. 148-53 Jan 15
9 Briviba et al., “A half-marathon and a marathon run induce oxidative DNA damage, reduce antioxidant capacity to protect DNA against damage and modify immune function in hobby runners.” Redox Rep., vol. 10 No. 6, pp. 325-31, 2005
10 Machefer et al., “Extreme running competition decreases blood antioxidant defense capacity.” J Am Coll Nutr. Vol. 23, No. 4, pp. 358-64, 2004 Aug
11 Cavas L, “Does underwater rugby stimulate the over-production of reactive oxygen species?” Cell Biochem Funct., Vo. 23, No.1 pp. 59-63, 2005 Jan-Feb



Ted Zuhlsdorf
www.redoxhealth.com
The Science of Making Cells Happy
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [Jonas] [ In reply to ]
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I think from a health stand-point, the best thing you can do is jog slowly 30 minutes 2x/day or walk 45-60 min 2x/day. Minimal health benefits to anything over that and at some point it becomes counter-productive. Running a marathon is not good for you - an IM is worse....I doubt there is any benefit to intervals (health wise) or "hard training".

Probably the healthiest thing you can is walk a lot.

A lot of what he says may be right - I'm sure both IM's/marathons are slightly harmful to our health - but I doubt running a few marathons or doing IM's here and there is going to cause any problems for most of us. It would be safer to jog 10K's though. Maybe hard training day in and day out does lead to increased risk of some diseases (cancer?) but we'll never know as they won't be able to figure it out. Clearly some exercise is better than none but is too much worse than a little or even none?

Dave
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [daveinmammoth] [ In reply to ]
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I was changing and increasing term life insurance last year and had to go through the standard blood test. Several of the markers indicate liver/organ health. A couple of days after the test, the insurance company calls telling me they are denying coverage and that I should seek medical attention due to my liver enzyme results being waaaay above "acceptable."

After going to the doctor and doing some internet research, turns out intensive exercise cause the liver to release enzymes falsely indicating severe organ (particular liver or heart) damage.

I had done an xterra two days before the test.

So I call the insurance company explain that it was because of a recent strenuous event, they agree to a retest. After two weeks of no exercise, the test results came back perfect, and I received they preferred plus rate...

whatever that means...
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [de-tri-mental] [ In reply to ]
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This is my first year in the past 13 years(been in triathlon for 21) that I am not training and racing half and full IM events. I decided I would just do short sprints this year. I can say without any hesitation that I have not felt better in years. I am 46 years old and can't remember feeling this good...so, I really don't need a test to tell me that going long may not be good for someone long term. And it isn't just fatique that has diminished. I sleep better, my digestive system is more efficient, my mood is better, and best of all...sex is better!
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [ouch] [ In reply to ]
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I know where you are coming from Ouch. Past history as an ultra marathoner and doing some very long days of mtn biking etc. Now I'm pretty much just running 40-50 mins 4 times a week and riding 70-90 mins 3-4 times a week. I get out for some nice relaxed hikes in the forests around my home, do some weights, hit the heavy bag a few rounds, jump in the lake for a quick swim if it's warm. Now I have the energy to do normal things. I can feel the body repairing itself and feel far better than I did when I was regularly doing very long days of running or riding.
I think testing yourself for a few years to see how good you can be probably isn't going to destroy you. If you want to continue with an endurance sport lifestyle as you get older then maybe you need to modify the training for a health rather than race performance.
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [mopak] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks guys, I'm 42 and been going at it pretty hard, and I was thinking that next year, I'll focus on XC skiing, some bike touring, no Ironman and some shorter event...but mainly on bike touring which is what gave me the itch to try a triathlon in the first place.
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Paul, with your great base you may find you hardly need to do any really long training sessions to do long bike touring. I've found I can do 200plus km (non-competitive) rides by just doing a few 2-4hr rides the previous month. I'm still strong just not as fast as I was with more long hard training. Same with the running.
If you are still getting an hour or so a day of training in you don't lose much general fitness just the ability to go as hard for as long.
I still harbour ambitions in longer events but, I think I have to be selective and space them apart. So for now I'll just focus on staying fit and healthy and enjoying the shorter training and racing. 16 months and I'll be 50 so who knows I might even have a crack at IMAUS or something else just as silly. But then I think I'll be back to the shorter base for a good while until those silly ideas overwhelm me again.
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Thanks guys, I'm 42 and been going at it pretty hard, and I was thinking that next year, I'll focus on XC skiing, some bike touring, no Ironman and some shorter event...but mainly on bike touring which is what gave me the itch to try a triathlon in the first place.

umm... didn't you say that last year about this year?
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Haha....I'll believe THAT when I see it!! :)
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [Redox Guy] [ In reply to ]
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That is a incredibly biased literature review of ROS and exercise. You can make someone run downhill the day before a liver enzyme check and make it look like they have some serious liver dysfunction if you want to.

As an alternative to the "load up on protective antioxidants" mantra, how about this idea: since "oxidative stress" results in adaptation so your body can better handle ROS and other byproducts, by taking antioxidants you are actually depressing the stimulus of training and therefore receiving a weaker adaptive stimulus.
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [sleepy] [ In reply to ]
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Sleepy is correct that adaption to training is affected by response to free radicals/oxidative stress. There have in fact been three studies that show high dose (1grams+) vitamin C prior to exercise dampens adaption to training. At the same time, we know a void of vitamin C created bigger problems than too much of it. Balance is the key. Were is not for antioxidant flavinoids and vitamins in fruits an veggies, pizza and beer would be the rule rather than the exception.

When looking for evidence of any phenomena, one needs to look for a "confluence of evidence." By that I mean, many studies pointing in a similar direction. What we can draw with certainty is that the nutrition needs are different for athletes and non athletes, because of the physiological stress. For the recreational athlete, in it for health, I think sacrificing a possible ceiling of training adaption for optimal cell health and function is a wise trade. For the serious or pro athlete, they could slow training adaption by taking too much vitamin C for example. Same said athlete would be wise, however, to take higher antioxidant loads compared to joe six-pack. this would be most beneficial on race day, and in particular during any type of multi day event, where adaption is not the goal, but rather performance and recovery.

So, sleepy is right about training adaption, but there is a difficult to measure point of diminishing returns. What we can walk away with is this: If professionals and amateurs alike were not reaching their potential because of taking vitamin supplements, and getting beat by the guy or gal who trained on bread and water, they wouldn't take them. But, athletes are more than ever taking these supplements because there is a confluence of evidence they work, in the lab and on the road. We just need to understand the benefits and limitations sports nutrition and also the extreme stress that some of us put our body through for the sake of the game.
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [flattire] [ In reply to ]
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'For the serious or pro athlete, they could slow training adaption by taking too much vitamin C for example. Same said athlete would be wise, however, to take higher antioxidant loads compared to joe six-pack. this would be most beneficial on race day'

So you're saying I shouldn't take 'too much vitamin C' but take 'higher antioxidant loads' on game day?? ....I'M CONFUSED!
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Re: Liverdamage from IM-training? [shady] [ In reply to ]
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I think it makes sense. if we're doing a century ride or big run, or even a two week hard block, our needs are nutritionally pretty high compared to the sedentary. Only a Luddite (sorry to any luddites out there) would say the USRDAs are adequate for the endurance nut. I for one cannot thrive on bread and water. I'm pretty sure that you're right you and I could slow our training adaption by getting nutty with mega-dose vitamins/antioxidants. Then again, at my age, I'm not really progressing, but rather attempting to to win by attrition - if I can only stay where I am for another decade or two, then I'll be a scary age-grouper. But I have to get there with my health intact first. So, I would recommend against taking high dose vitamin C in general. Half-life is only about 30 min, so that 1000mg spends less useful time that taking 200 mg twice a day. Big difference health wise. On race day or when doing a demanding bike tour or when adaptation is less a priority than health and recovery, I'd recommend upping nutrition, and I think most of us do so consciously or unconsciously.

As a lot of people have pointed out on this topic, think we need to separate health from raw performance. At my age, I'll err on the health, because I have a better shot of hitting 80 than making a mark at Kona. I'd be healthier sipping some tea and then taking a walk after dinner, rather than skipping dinner because I'm on my bike for a "quick" 50 miles after work. But I'm an addict to this lifestyle and ain't stoppin now! So, I'll take extra vitamins and omega 3s and stuff, stay healthy as I can, stay in the game as long as I can. But, perhaps the below previous post on the liverdamage subject sums it up much simpler and better than my long-winded post. LOL.

If I have to give up one, IM or beer, to save my liver, which is it going to be?[/quote] IM, that is the easiest question I've heard all month. Next.



Ted Zuhlsdorf
www.redoxhealth.com
The Science of Making Cells Happy
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