Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA

Nov 16, 18 6:48

Post #1 of 92 (6322 views)

Hello

now we know Lionel is on Canyon, with a new fit, probably next step is the wind tunnel (and the wind tunnel pictures, can't wait...).

As said on another LS thread, in an interesting video from a Swiss coach, his previous CdA were around 0.26 or 0.24, not really competitive.

The Swiss guy (help me with the name) told 0,22 would me the maximum "acceptable".

Given heigh and weight, with appropriate helmet and suit, plus maybe some additional tweaks on the fit, I bet he could go down to 0.21 in wind tunnel.

Kona real CdA will be slightly higher (no rear disk, ...)

To be compared to (my little fuzzy evaluations, and some other sources) :
Cameron Wurf : 0.21
Cody Beals : 0,21
Patrick Lange : 0.2 or less
Eric Lagerstrom : 0.195
Lucy Charles : 0.185
Michelle Vesterby : 0.175 (not pregnant)
Wiggo (for Hour Record - double disk) : 0.187
Alex Dowsett (for Hour Record - double disk) : 0.178

What is your bet for 2019 LS CdA ?
And helmet choice ?

Last edited by: Pyrenean Wolf: Nov 16, 18 6:53

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 6:52

Post #2 of 92 (6307 views)

I think his helmet choice will be determined by sponsor. Thus I think he'll be sticking with the LG Helmet.

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 7:06

Post #3 of 92 (6260 views)

On the pictures of the Canyon annoucement he wear Garneau clothes. Might stick to that, and for helmet also.

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 7:18

Post #4 of 92 (6191 views)

The Canyon will shave in the range of 8-12w off the Garneau bike for drag

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 7:26

Post #5 of 92 (6123 views)

desert dude wrote:

The Canyon will shave in the range of 8-12w off the Garneau bike for drag

So roughly the same amount he gives up with that moustache.

***

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 9:13

Post #6 of 92 (5910 views)

so he's going from .26 to .25

desert dude wrote:

The Canyon will shave in the range of 8-12w off the Garneau bike for drag

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 10:17

Post #7 of 92 (5800 views)

desert dude wrote:

The Canyon will shave in the range of 8-12w off the Garneau bike for drag

8-12w at what speed, and determined how?

BTW, it might sound like I'm being a dick, but I do appreciate and value your knowledge!

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 10:39

Post #8 of 92 (5748 views)

Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

As said on another LS thread, in an interesting video from a Swiss coach, his previous CdA were around 0.26 or 0.24, not really competitive.
What is your bet for 2019 LS CdA ?

I thought he was <.22 at ERO awhile back? Of course he changed a lot of stuff after that.

Lionel has some disadvantage vs the low-CdA guys. Too much muscle. But I'm 2+" taller and outweigh him by 20lbs and I managed a .202 last outing on a POS bike. I'd advise him to raise his bars a lot, and focus on turtle and shrug. It would probably be better for power as well.

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [rruff] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 10:48

Post #9 of 92 (5711 views)

yeah that bike is too small for him... maybe that was when he switched to a S instead of a M

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 16:04

Post #10 of 92 (5511 views)

The Swiss coach said he was 0.26 in Kona 2017, and 0.24 in Kona 2018. Cannot comment on this.

So, the bike alone will bring him to .23, possibly.

Looking at his position in IM Mount Tremblant vs position today from images with the Canyon, it seems his elbow are a little bit forward.

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 16:10

Post #11 of 92 (5498 views)

Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

The Swiss coach said he was 0.26 in Kona 2017, and 0.24 in Kona 2018. Cannot comment on this.

So, the bike alone will bring him to .23, possibly.

Looking at his position in IM Mount Tremblant vs position today from images with the Canyon, it seems his elbow are a little bit forward.

When he was tested at the velodrome in 2016 he got down to 0.23 but he reverted some of the changes after the aero session

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [marcag] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 16:58

Post #12 of 92 (5411 views)

marcag wrote:

Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

The Swiss coach said he was 0.26 in Kona 2017, and 0.24 in Kona 2018. Cannot comment on this.

So, the bike alone will bring him to .23, possibly.

Looking at his position in IM Mount Tremblant vs position today from images with the Canyon, it seems his elbow are a little bit forward.

When he was tested at the velodrome in 2016 he got down to 0.23 but he reverted some of the changes after the aero session

Seriously bow legged. Hopefully a fitter can fix that.

...paging jens on how a 130 campy track Q affects aero.

Maurice

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 17:33

Post #13 of 92 (5354 views)

In that one clip they show from the front he finally looks like his knees are tracking better.( Not sticking out so bad)

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 21:54

Post #14 of 92 (5221 views)

desert dude wrote:

The Canyon will shave in the range of 8-12w off the Garneau bike for drag

Why?

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 22:02

Post #15 of 92 (5213 views)

Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

The Swiss coach said he was 0.26 in Kona 2017, and 0.24 in Kona 2018. Cannot comment on this.

Hmmm... thought he did more watts in 2018 than 2017?... and look where he placed on the ride...

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [rruff] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 22:14

Post #16 of 92 (5198 views)

rruff wrote:

Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

The Swiss coach said he was 0.26 in Kona 2017, and 0.24 in Kona 2018. Cannot comment on this.

Hmmm... thought he did more watts in 2018 than 2017?... and look where he placed on the ride...

Not sure where that swiss coach got his data as Lionel had not tested prior to Kona 2018

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [marcag] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 18 22:52

Post #17 of 92 (5159 views)

Math?

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]

Nov 17, 18 0:46

Post #18 of 92 (5072 views)

Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

The Swiss guy (help me with the name)

Roy Hinnen.

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [Thorax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 17, 18 1:36

Post #19 of 92 (5038 views)

Thorax wrote:

Math?

sure.

Based on Lionel's power meter and taking into account draft effects I'm sure that is uber accurate.

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [marcag] [ In reply to ]

Nov 17, 18 1:55

Post #20 of 92 (5026 views)

I didn't say it was accurate or the opposite. That said, BBS's formula is usually pretty close.

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [rruff] [ In reply to ]

Nov 17, 18 3:40

Post #21 of 92 (4944 views)

rruff wrote:

desert dude wrote:

The Canyon will shave in the range of 8-12w off the Garneau bike for drag

8-12w at what speed, and determined how?

BTW, it might sound like I'm being a dick, but I do appreciate and value your knowledge!

Probably around its race speed (40km/h or 25mph)
At this speed, 8w is around .01 in CdA
It is typically the gap between a very optimized and a "standard" TT bike frame, from what can be seen in several studies, such as "Tri bikes in the age of peak aero". Personnally, never seen aero figures of Canyon or Garneau.

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]

Nov 17, 18 6:59

Post #22 of 92 (4776 views)

mauricemaher wrote:

Seriously bow legged. Hopefully a fitter can fix that.

that's not a fitter problem or fix

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]

Nov 17, 18 7:04

Post #23 of 92 (4769 views)

his cda will likely be...wait for it...the same. any improvements will be in the noise. for lionel to be an efficient rider he needs to spend a significant amount of time investing in his mobility, "suppleness," and trunk stability. a canyon isn't going to fix those issues.

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]

Nov 17, 18 7:21

Post #24 of 92 (4722 views)

jkhayc wrote:

mauricemaher wrote:

Seriously bow legged. Hopefully a fitter can fix that.

that's not a fitter problem or fix

Is it something that can be at least assisted by cleat shims and such? In my head, some subtle manipulations could help knee tracking, at least somewhat...

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Re: Lionel in Wind Tunnel : bet on new CdA [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]

Nov 17, 18 7:25

Post #25 of 92 (4714 views)

jkhayc wrote:

mauricemaher wrote:

Seriously bow legged. Hopefully a fitter can fix that.

that's not a fitter problem or fix

From the side His position hasn't looked horrible in the past, for example 2017 Kona, but I have seen some pictures from behind and it isn't pretty. The guy looks better suited to bull riding than being fast on the bike. I am not sure how much of that is fixable, but it is an area for improvement.

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