Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work

Jul 12, 20 11:23

Post #1 of 15 (1911 views)

This is something I've been interested in for awhile but having just bought our first ever treadmill (Nordictrack 9700pro for $100 on craigslist), I want to better understand the difference of running inside vs outside. For the sake of discussion lets assume the treadmill paces are accurate (I know they're usually not, but I'm probably going to pick up a Runn sensor anyways). I do almost all of my easy miles at .5 or 1% grade. Incline has been calibrated.

I know there is the phenomenon of running paces feeling much easier on a treadmill, especially with decent cooling, but it seems rather extreme in my case. Today I did about 11.5 miles @ roughly 7:45 pace. This is a normal easy pace for me outside. My running heart rate zone 2 is 146-154bpm. At this pace I could expect a heart rate of ~135bpm outside. Today for 90 minutes I averaged 113bpm, including 1 faster mile where I set the treadmill to 6:40 pace (heart rate only bumped to ~125bpm for that mile). I have had treadmill workouts before where I was supposed to stay in zone 2 and it took me pushing the treadmill to 6:10 pace before I even hit 150bpm.

So I guess my question is how should we take advantage of this? Only do runs that build strength on the treadmill and leave cardio work to outside? Everything on the treadmill but still follow outdoor heart rate zones? Everything on the treadmill but set new heart rate zones? This one wouldn't make a lot of sense because I can still hit nearly my max heart rate of 195 by doing hill sprints on a treadmill so the heart rate:pace ratio must slowly converge at higher efforts.

What can we do to maximize the benefit, specifically for long distance tri, of time spent running?

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Last edited by: realbdeal: Jul 12, 20 11:33

Re: Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 12:38

Post #2 of 15 (1848 views)

It seems like the most logical thing to do until you get the ruun sensor is to run at your zone 2 heart rate. Ultimately the pace is less important than the training effect you get from being zone 2. Fwiw I've noticed the exact same thing as you, that said I know nothing about nothing so take my opinion for what it is.

Re: Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 14:00

Post #3 of 15 (1792 views)

Another reason treadmills are easier is that you are expending 0W pushing through air resistance.

As far as training benefit (other than convenience is inclement weather), the main advantage is being able to reduce impact stresses and recover faster (so, log more miles). The extreme version of this is AlterG 'mill. On a regular tread mill, there is both the more forgiving surface and the ability to run uphill (low impact) without the corresponding downhill pounding.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Re: Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 14:07

Post #4 of 15 (1782 views)

the faster I run, the steeper the incline.

the longer I run consistently, the more pace or incline I add for a given RPE or HR.

It's a machine, to turn screws. Also a heat adaptater. Use it as such.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Re: Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 14:22

Post #5 of 15 (1763 views)

This study suggests bone strains are considerably greater in overground running vs. treadmill running:

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/37/2/160.short

My take-away from this is that if you're running say 30 miles/wk on a treddy, you shouldn't necessary assume that you can immediately start running that same mileage outdoors, ramp it down and build back up.

Re: Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 14:33

Post #6 of 15 (1749 views)

ericMPro wrote:

the faster I run, the steeper the incline.

the longer I run consistently, the more pace or incline I add for a given RPE or HR.

It's a machine, to turn screws. Also a heat adaptater. Use it as such.

Interesting. I like the idea of just bumping up the incline to get my heart rate to my outside zones. Thanks!

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Re: Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 14:33

Post #7 of 15 (1748 views)

Couple things -

TM training is very similar, but not exactly the same as outdoor running, for the same effort. There are added impacts from road and outdoor conditions that will throw your careful TM-preparations haywire if you're too rigid with expectations. Overall though, TM does work as a full substitute for running.

TMs tend to be 'softer' than the road, thanks to cushions and deck flex. You can use this to advantage by doing VO2max interval work on the TM, especially if you tend to get injured, as the impact will be less on the TM, whereas you can train your neuromuscular high-turnover leg motions since you can usually end up running faster (on a correctly calibrated TM) on the TM than the road for those repeats.

I love the 'erg-mode' of TM intervals and the high precision with speed control. Works extremely well for me, and I'm usually very surprised with how much less beat up I feel when I do VO2max intervals on the TM compared with road, even though I hit the same HRs.

Re: Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 14:35

Post #8 of 15 (1745 views)

Titanflexr wrote:

Another reason treadmills are easier is that you are expending 0W pushing through air resistance.

As far as training benefit (other than convenience is inclement weather), the main advantage is being able to reduce impact stresses and recover faster (so, log more miles). The extreme version of this is AlterG 'mill. On a regular tread mill, there is both the more forgiving surface and the ability to run uphill (low impact) without the corresponding downhill pounding.

Appreciate the input. This treadmill does have Nordictrack's "Quadflex", which allows me to adjust the 'softness' of the treadmill. I think I read the softest level is 24% less impact but they recommend firmer levels for heavier and/or faster runners.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Re: Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 14:38

Post #9 of 15 (1741 views)

Yeah I'll absolutely still do at least half of my running outside. It's just super hot and humid here right now and I'm not a big early riser. Thinking about it, it does seem like VO2 max efforts are where the treadmill will really shine, especially since I'm trying to train myself to have a shorter stride with higher turnover. Being able to do more sub 6 pace without the wear and tear on the legs is appealing.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Re: Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 16:06

Post #10 of 15 (1668 views)

Nordic track treadmill‘s are notorious for over reporting speed. Put your bicycle wheel on the treadmill and see if your cycling computer agrees with treadmill speed. On the other hand maybe you should just continue running easy on it —Nordic track treadmill‘s aren’t the most durable thing out there, even at $100 not sure how much of a bargain that is, LOL

Re: Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 16:11

Post #11 of 15 (1662 views)

I PR'd every race at varying distances after getting a treadmill so I certainly think it is a valuable tool to have. It allowed me to be more strict with my HR zones and got me out of making excuses not to run. It's so much easier to log consistent mileage when you have a treadmill on your property. Today is a perfect example, thunderstorms rolling in so I will hit my 1 hour run on the mill. It's not my favorite thing to do, but it beats being sidelined. It also makes life easier with the family. I can get up and do my bike session on the trainer and then hop right on the treadmill and be finished without my wife and kids wondering where I am or how long I will be gone.

I like using Zwift running while on the treadmill. A lot of times I will try to mimic the incline its showing on the route just to keep things less boring. Speed work seems a little easier to do on the treadmill also. Getting a treadmill is one of the best purchases I've made for my fitness endeavors.

Re: Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work [J7] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 16:12

Post #12 of 15 (1656 views)

Just found my gen 1 Stryd pod and did my 2nd run of the day on it. Treadmill is currently reading 5-10 seconds per mile faster than the Stryd pod. This model has their beefiest motor as far as I'm aware. Lifetime warranty on the motor, though I doubt that transfers to 2nd hand owners.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Re: Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]

Jul 13, 20 9:47

Post #13 of 15 (1448 views)

You need to bump the incline to 1-1.5% to mimic normal neurological motor patterning.

Even if you're only getting to zone 2 you're not less fit bc you did that workout.

When I lived in PHX I ran ~ 55% of my yearly mileage on a TM and >65% of my May - 1 Oct mileage on a TM. Unfortunately the gym only had a huge ceiling fan so it was warm yet not as warm as outside. Didn't stop me from running well in triathlon or winning some $ here and there.

Go by PRE, hr, duration and don't worry as much about the speed or distance that shows on the TM. Use those as guides.

If you search through Coggan's posts on here there is one where he details how to figure out how accurate your TM is.

The TM is an excellent tool for maintaining pace over long runs or increasing it, flattening the U shaped curve most people run in races, hill workouts to build running economy etc. Figure out what you want to work on and then figuring out the workout on the TM is easy. Your creativity is the only limit.

Pop quiz time:
Name the runner that is/was too economical?
Trick question as there has never nor will there ever be a runner that's too economical.

Running economy is doubly important to triathletes since we're getting off the bike with some CNS, PNF fatigue, glycogen depletion, some dehydration & then starting the run. Better economy = better running

Want to run better on the back half of a 70.3? (and who doesn't?) Increase your running economy.

Hope that helps

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]

Jul 13, 20 10:07

Post #14 of 15 (1418 views)

realbdeal wrote:

ericMPro wrote:

the faster I run, the steeper the incline.

the longer I run consistently, the more pace or incline I add for a given RPE or HR.

It's a machine, to turn screws. Also a heat adaptater. Use it as such.

Interesting. I like the idea of just bumping up the incline to get my heart rate to my outside zones. Thanks!

I do exactly the same as Eric. I've gone so far as to determine "optimal incline" for my TM at my paces that replicate road paces, RPE, and HR (under similar conditions, temp/humidity). For me, its about 1* of incline for each increase in pace of ~1 mpm.

This year, I've been using shorter easier runs of <hour outdoors for heat adaptation benefits, and doing harder (tempo and up) work indoors on the TM. I've been tending to split my long runs between indoors and out. So, I'll do the first 1/2 to 2/3rds outside, then move to the TM to wrap up. Going too long, too hard, or both seems to just dig too deep of a hole for me outside in the heat. But, I'm in texas, so...

Btw, my footpod shows my TM indicated paces to be off by over 60s. So, yeah....errors can be large. I completely ignore the TM control panel.

Re: Let's talk training adaption of treadmill work [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Jul 13, 20 13:13

Post #15 of 15 (1322 views)

desert dude wrote:

You need to bump the incline to 1-1.5% to mimic normal neurological motor patterning.

Even if you're only getting to zone 2 you're not less fit bc you did that workout.

When I lived in PHX I ran ~ 55% of my yearly mileage on a TM and >65% of my May - 1 Oct mileage on a TM. Unfortunately the gym only had a huge ceiling fan so it was warm yet not as warm as outside. Didn't stop me from running well in triathlon or winning some $ here and there.

Go by PRE, hr, duration and don't worry as much about the speed or distance that shows on the TM. Use those as guides.

If you search through Coggan's posts on here there is one where he details how to figure out how accurate your TM is.

The TM is an excellent tool for maintaining pace over long runs or increasing it, flattening the U shaped curve most people run in races, hill workouts to build running economy etc. Figure out what you want to work on and then figuring out the workout on the TM is easy. Your creativity is the only limit.

Pop quiz time:
Name the runner that is/was too economical?
Trick question as there has never nor will there ever be a runner that's too economical.

Running economy is doubly important to triathletes since we're getting off the bike with some CNS, PNF fatigue, glycogen depletion, some dehydration & then starting the run. Better economy = better running

Want to run better on the back half of a 70.3? (and who doesn't?) Increase your running economy.

Hope that helps

Usually in synch with you, but differ on this one regarding incline.

I do not want to get into the weeds and the subtle differences between treadmill (TM) versus overground (OG) from a recruitment perspective that are driven from slight kinetic/kinematic differences in method.

The driver for using some incline on a TM is largely for metabolic reasons to obtain a more apples to apples demand at a given pace, not matching an OG motor pattern. One could argue that throwing in incline actually puts the TM further away from the kinetics and kinematics (patterning) of OG running.

Sooo, it is all about goals and we are aligned on your points of economy. Perhaps it may be beneficial to keep TM level for select workouts (if not all) and accommodate by increasing the speed versus OG to get the equivalent metabolic demand return and the added benefit of increasing turn-over, stride length or other mechanisms e.g. recruitment needed to run faster that may have a "trickle-down" economic benefit;)

Incline is also a good feature on a TM to work on economy as well, but in this case it would be to mimic hill running recruitment (>2) on select workouts.

Certainly, not black and white but putting the TM on 1-1.5 every time you step on it is likely leaving something on the table.

Cheers!

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.