Ok..I'll go first...

Zippers. Why are some manufacturers doing them Rse about face (zip top to bottom) - Yonda, Raceskin at least. Yes Ali Brownlee can't yank down an ends-at-the-bottom - but so hard to get on yourself (which means fully suiting early and if hot = overheat. Thoughts?
(Thst has put me off buying those brands)

Life. How long ?
My 2nd best Orca 3.8 is like lace over the shoulders, small of my back and side panels. Surfaces all broken up. Just the fabric liner keeping it together. Went like this after 4 years. Probably used 2x per week on average. Legs, main body and lower arms still good condition.
(Never used in a chlorinated pool, looked after reasonably well, dried inside out and usually indoors etc).

Deboer wetsuits cost more than my bike.

Dan,

Thanks for starting the conversation. I really enjoyed reading your initial article, "The Most Expensive Wetsuits Are Not Always the Fastest"

I think it would be interesting to look at how the marketing has evolved over the years considering this is a product segment that didn't exist whatsoever some time ago. Now, at any given tri, one will see dozens of different brands/models being worn by athletes. Some are $120 on Amazon, Some are $900+ and there's very little information out there for consumers to understand the differences, exactly. We (naively) assume more money = better, but like anything in the sport (bikes, wheels, shoes), we like to have data (or a good gut feeling?) to back this up. Furthermore, "better" in this case can be very subjective. Some people might value comfort, others, long lasting (eg, won't need to replace every 3 years), and for the competitive ones among us, "fastest" which I assume is very individual concept as well. Others might (like any wearable item) just want to have a certain logo across their chest because of perceived value/status or wanting to wear the same suit as the "pros". While there isn't a S-WORKS wetsuit, there certainly are "halo" models that each brand has at the tippity top of their pricing scheme.


I thought it was interesting that in your article, you mentioned both the Vanquish and Aspire suits from Zone3, as I now am fortunate enough to have both in my posession. Looking forward to doing some comparisons of my own, as I squarely fall into the "not so great" category of swimmer you allude to in the article.

Here are some of the questions that definitely came across my mind over the last few years venturing into the sport. I don't expect answers to all of these, but I'm sure any one of them would make for some interesting discussion. Edit: After doing some further reading on this site, I found many interesting past articles that begin to answer several of these.

Things to consider when purchasing a new suit

• Who needs a wetsuit, and what's the least one can spend on one and expect good results?
• Is there a "sweet spot" for value-for-money, where utility/$ is maximized?
• Do wetsuits have a "expected service life" ? Are some inherently more durable than others?
• If the above is true, is there sense in having a "race only" suit vs a training suit(s)?
• Fit: How to determine what is optimal?
• Is a used wetsuit a good/bad idea?

Types of Suits and Product Features / Differentiation

• When (if ever?) to opt for a no sleeve, short sleeve, short leg, etc vs a full-sleeved suit.
• Do lava / buoyancy shorts do anything useful? If so, when should I be using them?
• Best wetsuit for (trained) swimmers who say they hate wetsuits?
• "Coatings" and hydrophobic qualities, do these features matter?

Use, Care, and Storage

• Transition: Getting it off fast without damaging it, getting around things like a GPS watch, timing chip
• Storing it - Hang? Flat? Special foam padding to stop creases? Humidity/Heat concerns?
• What will / won't damage neoprene?
• Can I / How to repair rips and tears?

Wetsuit / Triathlon Industry and Miscellaneous Questions

• To what degree are wetsuits "purchased speed" and what impact does this have on the sport of triathlon?
• Furthermore, USAT seems to view them as a way to keep safe/warm, not 'go faster'. Elaborate on this concept?
• Breakdown of the 'true cost' of a wetsuit. (E.g.: R&D, Raw materials, Transportation, Labour, Merchandising, Marketing, Sponsorships, Overhead, Margins, Warranty/Support)
• Overall look at the industry, barriers to entry, production/factories, the "direct-to-consumer" nature of online sales, marketing trends, who has thrived, who has died.
• Does in-store shopping even exist in 2021 for most athletes? Are small-time store owners screwed?
• What does the wetsuit of 10-years in the future from now look like? 3D Scans / custom made (in the manner Tri Suits are starting to). Built-in safety features? LEDs? GPS??

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Clubs/Affiliations: The Rippers / Charles River Wheelers / Cambridge Sports Union

I read the article about price vs. speed: https://www.slowtwitch.com/...he_Fastest_7992.html

Very interesting, and totally in concert with what I've been told about entry level vs. intermediate vs. advanced wetsuits.

What about durability though? Those TYR wetsuits famously break at the stitches below the shoulder, in front of the armpit. I think durability is a big consideration for those of us who aren't sponsored athletes. And that's quite a few.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

i have not had that problem with TYR's wetsuits that you describe. the problem i did have was blowing out the calf when you put your heel through the wetsuit - when putting it on. TYR's suits have, for me, been really good suits, really fast, but i've had to be very careful with them.

standard suits, that don't have really think forearms and ankles, are less likely to rip when you're putting the suit on. this is where the suit is most vulnerable to a tear: when you're putting it on. also, the more expensive suits that try to mate really thin rubber to thick rubber at the seams - if you're glueing and sewing 2mm rubber to 5mm rubber - these are the tender parts of the wetsuit.

however, that SCS coating, that shiny coating, that goes on these wetsuits, that's not just a speed feature, but it adds a lot of durability. i actually think this is that coating's best feature. if you put yamamoto #39 rubber in a wetsuit, and it's not coated with SCS, that is absoutely the stretchiest rubber you can put in a wetsuit. putting that coating on - and it's kind of just painted on - makes that rubber a little less stretchy. but it makes it much harder to tear with your fingernails. it adds a lot of durability.

so, the strongest, most durable wetsuits, while remaining fast, high performance wetsuits, will be those mid-priced wetsuits that don't have really thin rubber or fabric panels, and have yamamoto $39 rubber with an SCS coating (either black or "metal", which is that silver color). de soto's green goma appears to bear a lot of similarity to this rubber i'm talking about.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I've had multiple wetsuits from multiple brands and have never really felt total shoulder flexibility while wearing them. I have pretty wide shoulders (relative to other tri folks) so I don't think it's a problem of the manufacturer. My latest swim training is focusing on high turnover rate which has lead me to faster 100 times, thus I am going to look at a sleeveless wetsuit going forward.

In terms of their design, is there anything in particular to look out for?

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the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

I have pretty wide shoulders (relative to other tri folks) so I don't think it's a problem of the manufacturer. //

This happens to a lot of people because the torso's in the suit are too short for them with certain brands. Have you tried the two piece DeSotos suit? It solves all the short torso problems, and even gives more shoulder mobility than a well fitting one piece suit..

yes I have. Those and the new Roka suits but I felt the same restrictions in both

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the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

well, you probably aren't going to like my latest article (of today) on what style i think you should wear. in a longjohn, pretty much the world's your oyster. just about anything will work that will fit okay. shoulder mobility is not a thing with the longjohn.

however, when you go off the grid, in morphology, this is a case for a 2pc suit. in my opinion, the wetsuit industry lost a huge opportunity by not developing the 2pc concept. the reason the beam bike died out is that nobody really followed up on softride. nobody said, yeah, good idea, let's see if we can optimize it. now beam bikes are back, but about 20 years were lost when the bike world sort of shrunk back in timidity. but what do you gain if you're stuck in the crowd, making the same bike that cervelo or canyon are making, more or less, but you can't get traction? how much money did orbea make in tri bikes, by playing the safe route and making standard tri bike?

likewise with 2pc wetsuits. how much money has orca earned playing it safe? or aquaman? you seem to me a candidate for 2pc, because shoulder immobility is just not a think with 2pc suits. i would be shocked if you were faster in any LJ than you are in a 2pc full.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

What wetsuits/brands are good for ex fish (someone who used to be a fast age grouper in high school swimming but decided not to swim in college and has since lost most of their swimming speed, but still has technique and body position just not raw strength)? Is too much wetsuit bouyency a thing, should I go with something that’s not 3:5?

some of your questions might be answered in my latest installment (today) or by answers to posts in this thread, such as one where i talk about yamamoto's SCS coating. beyond this:

we always gave a 2yr warranty on our QR wetsuits, because we felt like that investment ought to last 2 years. our warranty was no fault, but that was easy for us to offer because we had our own factory. today, wetsuit companies are not factories. they're offices. there are some exceptions. i believe de soto and perhaps ROKA do their own patterns and prototyping in their US offices. but to the point, it's hard to repair wetsuits if you have no capacity to repair them, and it's hard to offer a really great warranty if your only capacity to execute on the warranty is to send out a new suit always. but 2 years of big use, 4 or 5 years of very occasional use. i think you can get that out of a tri wetsuit.

i think, if you hunt around, you can get a perfectly good fullsuit for $250 to $350. but here's your problem. you are really bad money manager when it comes to this product category. "you" being the aggregate you. i can't sell a $1000 for $100 in december. but i can sell a $1000 for $1000 when it's the week before a race. triathletes are the worst buyers when it comes to anticipating what you will need in 6 or 8 months and taking advantage of a counter-season purchase to save a bunch of money. it's like this with wetsuits and with smart trainers. you can't imagine during the summer that it'll ever get dark or cold again, and in the winter you don't think the sun will ever shine.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

As a person in the market for their first wetsuit in forever, the best time to buy would be winter then?
I can certainly wait until then here in the south wetsuits are shoulder season utensils not for August early September races like I have on my schedule.

I ended up with a Roka Maverick MX, and was surprised at how stretchy it was compared to the two wetsuits I previously owned. It’s like bubble gum vs tire rubber by comparison.

I was a bit worried that the shoulders would be restrictive since it is a thicker suit, but I think the cut and materials make that a non-issue. My experience with my first two wetsuits led me to believe all wetsuits felt like doing resistance band training, so I’m glad it worked.

For the price (when they go on sale), I probably should have gotten then Pro II instead, but they’ve been sold out in my size and I figured the thicker one would be more durable for training anyway. I think I’d stick with my choice after about two months of use, and it still looks new.

cash is king, and cash gets even more royal in the off-season. the worst was during the pandemic, in the fall of last year, when you could get great deals on tri bikes, and now it's hard to get tri bikes. same with wetsuits. psychology is everything in this sport, when it comes to buying and selling.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Let's look at 3 different examples of athletes you might encounter in the wild and consider what is best suited for each:


Athlete #1 has entered his second sprint/olympic distance event ever. He does most of his swim training in the pool at the gym. This upcoming tri is an ocean swim and the water is going to be chilly, and he's not so a great swimmer either. He was thinking of just swimming in bike shorts or a tri suit, but now wants a way to be a bit warmer to avoid that "panic" of jumping in. He wants whatever is going to be the minimum viable product, and it probably won't get worn more than 5 times a year. That said, he doesn't want a surfing wetsuit either, it has to be swim specific.


Athlete #2 is in his 3rd year of racing tri and is stepping up to longer distances. He's hoping to get on to the age group podium at the local races and has dedicated a good amount of time to OWS training over the past year. He already has a cheaper, sleeveless suit from Amazon, but wants to take some time off the swim leg. He's willing to spend up to $1,000 annually towards this goal, but has to budget between spending on the wetsuit, bike parts, and travel for races. He browses the classifieds on SlowTwitch for deals on used equipment and scans for end-of-season sales/clearance on past models.


Athlete #3 has her USAT pro card, and swam D1 in college 8 years ago. She is first out of the water at most local races without trying too hard, but needs to stay competitive with the other elites at the larger races. She doesn't want to spend much, because her other expenses are so high. She could probably fenagle her way into a free one, but doesn't want to have to beg on social media or spend much energy on the matter. She currently has a near top-tier suit from Company X but it has started to show signs of wear and will need to be replaced within the season.

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Clubs/Affiliations: The Rippers / Charles River Wheelers / Cambridge Sports Union

I have not done any swimming for a long time due to injuries and COVID.
Even though I am vaccinated I still do not feel comfortable going to a public pool.
Being that I live in San Diego swimming in the ocean is an option and something I have done a lot of in the past.
Right now the water temp is 69 so I do not really need a wetsuit but when the temperature drops a bit I will need one.
I am 64 and no longer race or compete I just swim for fun and fitness.
I currently have a QR wetsuit with long legs and tank top that is quite thick and confining.
Since I have gained a few pounds it is really hard to even get it on.
So I am looking for something that provides some warmth while not feeling too confining and speed does not matter.
Also I would feel a bit safer in the ocean with a wetsuit.
Thanks for any suggestions.

first off, you and i are the same age. go back to pool swimming. the vaccine either works or it doesn't, and i choose to believe it does. the number of vaccinated people dying of COVID approaches zero, and while vaccinated people can test positive for the virus, they are typically asymptomatic. you did yourself a favor by getting the vaccine, now i'm inviting you to enjoy the fruit of that step you took.

read what i published this morning on fullsuits. 30 or 35 years ago we erred one size too small on the size chart. now, you and i err one size large. take your current weight, add 10lb, and then look for a size where that weight - your weight + 10lb - is at the center of that weight range. and, make sure that the wetsuit is tall enough for you. make sure that your height is in the center of the size chart, or, perhaps skewing taller.

or buy a 2pc. a lot of older guys like 2pc, because it's very easy on the shoulders, esp when you're trying to get in and out of the suit.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Following on the lifespan of wetsuits... does that 4-5 years of occasional use apply whether or not wetsuit has been used? I have a wetsuit about 5 years old now, probably worn 10-15 times total. (Got out of open water swimming/triathlons for a few years.) When I dusted it off recently, I did soak it twice in water before use, and likely will do that again next time I use it.

And when you consider it to be at the end of use, do you just mean it's more likely to tear or are there other issues to consider? Thanks.

if you don't hang your wetsuit up on a standard hanger, and you don't leave it out baking in the sun for years on end, your suit should last 4 or 5 years without much special care and feeding. i don't think you need to soak it before use, but you can. just rinse it out good and let it dry after you use it, and before you store it. lay it flat or fold it like it was when it came to you in the box. the creases you see when you get the wetsuit back out and use it will mostly go away after one use.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

What were the previous two brands you used? Curious, as I may go up to a Roka Maverick given my wetsuits feel like resistance band training (Xterra Vortex)

My prior wetsuit was a Zoot Z Force 3.0. I don’t even remember the brand of my first wetsuit, but that was over a decade ago lol.

Other than using them in cold Pacific Ocean water, I hated swimming in these wetsuits, and have twice opted to race without them because of how restrictive they felt on shoulders.

I’m honestly still not all that convinced that I’m faster in a full wetsuit relative to Roka SIM shorts… but I don’t feel that the MX adds resistance to my shoulder movement and it comes off fairly fast so I’m more likely than not to use it in my next race (in a few weeks!)

Not replying to anyone specific.....
Given their incredibly generous return policy, I'm always amazed that more people don't try Desoto. So damn comfortable, and so easy to put on and take off. Just replaced my 10 year old DeSoto with a new Desoto, just because I decided to treat myself to their latest materials, but the old one was still holding up fine.

I’m curious just how much slower sleeveless is than a sleeved. Like some sort of quantifiable number however generalised

25% slower, i.e., if you get 8sec per 100yd out of a fullsuit - in extra speed - you'll get 6sec/100yd out of a LJ.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman