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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [trail] [ In reply to ]
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When in doubt isn't the saying for multiple choice to always choose "c" right? I guess Lance isn't good at multiple choice...
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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nslckevin wrote:
Maui5150 wrote:
I have to disagree with you slightly here Dan.

While many were using, and many kept quiet, given the history, we know that the basic air was, you speak against Lance, you will lose your job, be sued, and you will be taken down.

You think a lot of people know bad thing drug dealers or Mafiosos do? Why do you think more people don't talk.

Again to me the doping is secondary to LA, I look to the lives he destroyed, the legal monster he unleashed.

In your analogy, perhaps you should have lance turning to the witnesses as he does his beating and then snarling, you say one effing word and you will get worse.


As far as I know, being a dick is not an offense in the WADA code. His doping offenses are the same as Hincapie and the rest of the group. EPO, Testosterone, transfusions, etc.

Phew....glad this was clarified....I was fearful that half of slowtwitchia was going to be banned by WADA....but now we are OK to enter races after that clarification.

Dev
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Again to me the doping is secondary to LA, I look to the lives he destroyed,//

I see this statement thrown around all the time, whose lives exacty did he destroy?? I see some guys who did drugs that lost their jobs, or changed teams, but they all seem to be doing fine now. We all lose jobs in the real world and have to make life changes, but our lives are not destroyed. Betsy seems to be doing just fine, doing the talk show circut and certainly has some book deal in the works. Tyler is fine, Floyd is fine, I see Frankie on tv commentating the tour, in fact they all seem to be doing better than lance at the moment. All of his ex teamates who testified agains him that were racing, are all still racing, and have kept their clothing lines, big houses, most sponsors, etc. IF he destroyed anyone's life, it is his own, and i do not see that even. He will recover from this episode somehow and move on with some sort of nice life i would guess. People were inconvienced and hurt by lance, but a lot of that was also their own doing too. But i see no destroyed lives here by any means. There are a lot of course changes in lives, but that was going to happen eventually for everyone that is a pro cyclist, and for everyone that participates in our culture today, just the way it goes. Very few of us get a smooth path through life without any bumps in the road, it is how we deal with them that sets people apart..

Have you ever been sued or targeted by a wealthy person or powerful corporation.

My family has. EDS had targeted my sister because she left the company before her contract was up (they had violated several terms which led to her leaving)

They were completely in the wrong, knew they were in the wrong, yet wanted to make an "example" and basically stated... We don't care what our contract says, we will do what we want and if you try and back out of your end, we will sue you into the ground."

We were lucky. One of our good friends happened to be a brilliant retired corporate lawyer from a major defense contractor and did the work for us over the next 3 years pro-bono. It is extremely stressful, especially when you start looking at the smear things corporations do like hiring private investigators, spreading lies to companies you are interviewing with (imagine sitting down to an interview and the interviewer starts asking you about things the company has contacted them about which are lies)

"You said you left. We were contact and told that not only were you fired, that they are have lawsuits against you for the harm and damages you did during your course of employment"

We won. Took forever and it was brutal. Especially when you are facing judgements more than you can afford, are fighting lies, and have someone not afraid to manufacturer evidence (like Lance telling Lemond he would find 20 people to say he doped)

Going through the legal ringer SUCKS, is painful, frustrating, and expensive.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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>>> yes, i read the pundit reviews. i also note that none of the pundits reviewing know anything about cycling. i watched piers morgan excoriate armstrong as a criminal and a sociopath and then in the very next breath welcome one of his three favorite all time guests - because of his candor and transparency - charlie sheen. history will judge this process, not johnny come lately experts. neither do i agree with their assessments, nor the opposite assessment of those of the ilk of sally jenkins, who are blatant armstrong apologists. i don't agree that everybody did it so that makes it okay. nor to i agree that lance was the only guilty party and all the other riders victims of lance. <<<<

Does it matter that the pundits did not have a cycling background? Lance went on Oprah looking for redemption and by all accounts it was a massive fail. The cycling experts and non-cycling public saw for themselves how arrogant, deceitful, and conniving he is. His lack of emotion and empathy came through loud and clear. I understand your point of view regarding the inequality of sentencing, but if Lance is serious about making amends, he can start by ceasing all efforts to get back to competition and spend all of his time working in support of cancer patients. Until then, his apology sounds as meaningful as OJ's promise to spend the rest of his life looking for Nicole's killer.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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Have you ever been sued or targeted by a wealthy person or powerful corporation. //

Yes i have, a couple times. My life is not destroyed. IT was a stressful bad time, but it was not the worst times of my life either. You can dwell on the past and let it ruin your future, or deal with whatever at the time, then move on. I see everyone with so called destroyed lives in this saga as having moved on with a chance at a happy, meaningful life in front of them.

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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with you. I think the punishment should be same for the same crime. So to make it fair, first give them the same as Lance's punishment then split up Lance's money so they have the same rewards from doping. Would not this be the fairest?
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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nslckevin wrote:
As far as I know, being a dick is not an offense in the WADA code. His doping offenses are the same as Hincapie and the rest of the group. EPO, Testosterone, transfusions, etc.

Actually I suggest you "re-read" the original charges / letter

If by being a dick you mean:

supplying drugs
Concealing use
Intimidating witnesses.

You think Bruyneel and Ferrari's charges as well as other of Team Management and trainers were for USE?

What got shown with Lance, which is why they came after him harder, was he was more of a central figure. Levi, George, etc... They were the end user... Lance was both a user as well as a supplier, pusher, and at times even muscle.

The little fish always get off lighter to get the Kingpin.

MOST of the charges against Lance were for code of conduct and criminal type activity regarding concealing / providing
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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in fairness, maui, you had to see that answer coming from monty. he's a man who used to swim uphill to school - both ways! on the 1:05!

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Have you ever been sued or targeted by a wealthy person or powerful corporation. //

Yes i have, a couple times. My life is not destroyed. IT was a stressful bad time, but it was not the worst times of my life either. You can dwell on the past and let it ruin your future, or deal with whatever at the time, then move on. I see everyone with so called destroyed lives in this saga as having moved on with a chance at a happy, meaningful life in front of them.

n = 1 sample, above. Optimism is good, but not all will be recovered. And, of course, it's easy to play victim when one has +$100 mil in the bank. I wish all impacted by this sordid saga well going forward, but there are many who suffered real, material damage that can be recovered.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Mr. Empfield,
As you stated, this thread has two tracks. My question to you is “why did YOU start the second track?” I am most likely way off base here. But... Is it perhaps to deflect the first and therefor perhaps justify your obvious feelings of admiration for Lance? Or is it simply another opportunity for you to grind your ax over USADA’s tactics?
You submit that he is now going to be the best at redemption. Your evidence for this opinion is that because you know him so well, that you just know he will be the best at whatever he does? If that is so, then he is even more disingenuous than he came across in the interview (I realize you disagree with that assessment).
Are you familiar with the “Barnum Effect”?
How does one “completely… mostly” come clean Dan?
I submit that we are all slaves to our own egos; I would not be writing this if I weren’t a slave to my own. But this is the first time I have seen it in your writing. I also submit that Lance Armstrong is still the great puppet master and we are all, to some degree still his puppets.

Jerry Trump
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Didn't he villified his message therapist and called her a whore because she spoke out? Destroy is a harsh term, but I'm sure her life wasn't pleasant during those times.

The guys that wrote articles/books about his doping ways. He went after them pretty hard no? Again destroy is a harsh terms, but their lives weren't too comfortable with lawsuits accusing them of fabrications.

Last I look, the people I just mentioned, didn't dope or transport dope.

monty wrote:
Again to me the doping is secondary to LA, I look to the lives he destroyed,//

I see this statement thrown around all the time, whose lives exacty did he destroy?? I see some guys who did drugs that lost their jobs, or changed teams, but they all seem to be doing fine now. We all lose jobs in the real world and have to make life changes, but our lives are not destroyed. Betsy seems to be doing just fine, doing the talk show circut and certainly has some book deal in the works. Tyler is fine, Floyd is fine, I see Frankie on tv commentating the tour, in fact they all seem to be doing better than lance at the moment. All of his ex teamates who testified agains him that were racing, are all still racing, and have kept their clothing lines, big houses, most sponsors, etc. IF he destroyed anyone's life, it is his own, and i do not see that even. He will recover from this episode somehow and move on with some sort of nice life i would guess. People were inconvienced and hurt by lance, but a lot of that was also their own doing too. But i see no destroyed lives here by any means. There are a lot of course changes in lives, but that was going to happen eventually for everyone that is a pro cyclist, and for everyone that participates in our culture today, just the way it goes. Very few of us get a smooth path through life without any bumps in the road, it is how we deal with them that sets people apart..


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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Destroy is a harsh term,//

That is all i was getting at with my post. I do not see anything close to any destroyed lives. I see a lot of people that were put in stressful situations that were not pleasant, but nothing approaching something like a major medical emergency in ones life. Just trying to keep lance's sins in context.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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What I've learned from this thread is that there are Lance lovers and Lance haters. And, the same identical data is being used to support your position. So, Religion, Politics and Lance. No amount of arguing will change anyone's position and the person "on one side" will constantly be frustrated with how stupid everyone on the "other" side is.

BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [AmaDablam] [ In reply to ]
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AmaDablam wrote:
Slowman wrote:

here's what i think about lance armstrong. i think lance is obsessed with being the best. the best cyclist. the best doper. and now i think he's made the choice that when it comes to the current task - owning up to 15 years of doping and lying; making restitution; turning the page - i think he's now determined to be the best at that. certainly, this massive drive at being the best pointed toward the task of being humble and contrite is like asking a sumo wrestler to take up needlepoint. but i look at redemption stories like that of michael milken and i do see that redemption is possible. but it's only possible if you just flat admit to yourself and others the depth of what you've done. to that end, lance has done more than just publish a careful statement written with the help of those of whom the rider asks, "do you think this will be enough?"

accordingly, i am impressed with the effort lance is making, altho i acknowledge that he's not finished, we haven't seen it all, and it isn't going to be satisfactory until it's all finally out there.


DId you watch the same interview the rest of did? The interview was a total fail. His performance has been universally panned as that of a merciless psycho with zero empathy for those he destroyed. Go to Google news and look up articles written after the interview. The words "quality of the apology" will not feature in any of them. Armstrong is being excoriated as Bernie Madoff on wheels, and a strong feeling that runs through most articles is that Armstrong looks far worse than he did before the interview.

On top of his miserable attempt to explain himself, he continues to flagrantly lie. It was exactly the type of interview where Armstrong's PR people gave him a carefully planned set of answers they hoped would be enough but Armstrong's reptilian-like cold bloodedness lacked any sort of human warmth that could have made the words believable or himself likeable.

The apologists are still looking for any excuse to lessen what Armstrong did. The latest talking point is that Armstrong's punishment is unfair because Zabriskie or Vande Velde or Leipheimer received a lesser sentence. This is bogus. Armstrong was not charged with simply doping like the others. He was charged with trafficking; facilitation, aiding, abetting, assisting, and administrating other riders' doping; intimidation, coercion, and bullying to further his doping conspiracy; etc. No other rider has ever been charged with the breadth and depth of doping related acts that Armstrong was sanctioned for. He personally took it upon himself to punish not only riders who had testified about doping but riders who were not doping that had spoken to the media about the doping problem.

Even so, Armstrong was given the opportunity to get a reduced sanction. Instead he attempted to destroy the anti-doping framework with ridiculous charges of unconstitutionality and lack of due process. He lost and now he is crying because, maybe for the first time in his life, the rules were applied to him. He is getting a feel for how the rest of us live and does not like it. Tough shit. He is a grown man. He made his choices. Now he can live with the outcome.

It appears that there are still those willing to take whatever bullshit Armstrong's PR people have dreamed up and promote it as though it were not a transparent attempt to excuse Armstrong.


We really need a like button here. Because this nails it.

Suffer Well.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"i am singularly unimpressed with the quality of the 'apology.' (and with the form and timing of its delivery.)"

i agree with you on the timing. look, there is nobody in all of this - no athlete, no cyclist - who made an apology if his own free will. everybody who made an apology made it because he was forced to. levi, george, dz, vdv, td, mb, floyd, tyler, lance, everybody. all these guys would be living their lies today if not forced by outside pressures to make their apologies. they all lied. they are all liars. they are all cheaters. they all put their own selfish ambitions above the health of the sport, and they all watched others - friends of theirs - suffer and they all could have eased that suffering had they just told what they knew. are we in any disagreement about this? george hincapie saw what happened to his teammate frankie andreu, and his wife, and said nothing. did nothing. let it happen. never said a word. courageous george. hero george. george the role model for your younger athletes. the template of the honorable cyclist. george who is the andy pettitte of cycling. teflon george.

i've got nothing against george. george was no worse than any of these riders. but i'm having a hard time understanding why he is better. i see apologies from these athletes in writing, on their blogs, on the very day they were named as dopers (and praised while dopers) by USADA. never prior to their being outed did they say word one.

once these riders decided that they had no choice but to abandon each of their big lies, we have all had occasion to hear and read their statements. on the once hand, we read what i think are non-apology apologies, like that by levi: "
I regret that this was the state of affairs in the sport that we love and I chose as my career. I am sorry that I was forced to make the decisions I made."

i regret that i was forced? yes, and al gore and the secret service tied bill clinton to a chair and forced monica lewinsky on him. clinton regrets that that happened.

here's what i think about lance armstrong. i think lance is obsessed with being the best. the best cyclist. the best doper. and now i think he's made the choice that when it comes to the current task - owning up to 15 years of doping and lying; making restitution; turning the page - i think he's now determined to be the best at that. certainly, this massive drive at being the best pointed toward the task of being humble and contrite is like asking a sumo wrestler to take up needlepoint. but i look at redemption stories like that of michael milken and i do see that redemption is possible. but it's only possible if you just flat admit to yourself and others the depth of what you've done. to that end, lance has done more than just publish a careful statement written with the help of those of whom the rider asks, "do you think this will be enough?"

accordingly, i am impressed with the effort lance is making, altho i acknowledge that he's not finished, we haven't seen it all, and it isn't going to be satisfactory until it's all finally out there.


Frankie did. He stands alone in this mess.

I understand that you are making reference to him with the others later in the paragraph, but it is worth pointing out again to everyone that he spoke the truth on his own, with nothing to gain from doing so.
Last edited by: Jon h: Jan 31, 13 13:19
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"Come on now. Levi and Lance were offered the same three choices:"

nevertheless, and pardon the analogy, but to me the focus is on the thug who beats people up, and who gets the death sentence, but the guy who held the victim down, and the guys who stood overtop and watched the beatings - and never said a word - are spending their off season in jail
. neither george, nor levi, nor dz, nor vdv, nor anyone of the rest of that crowd, would ever have said word one. let me put this in perspective. levi knew the entire time that betsy andreu and emma o'reilly were getting a bad rap and shabby treatment. he never lifted a finger. never said a word. for a decade and more. nor would he ever have said a word to this day to right those wrongs. nor would any of them. does this lessen lance's culpabillity? not a bit. however, one guy gets life. the others are banned from racing all those big money races that take place between thanksgiving and easter. further, they are basically called heroes by USADA. if this is not a full justification and use, by USADA, of the nuremburg defense, i do not know what else to call it. i'm not saying that lance should get levi's penalty. if anything, it should be the other way around. mostly i'm just saying that the delta between the penalties is much greater than can be justified by the fact that some of these guys - after a decade of doping and silence - rolled a few months before lance did.

Disagreed.

Vaughters backed betsy and frankie anonymous in the NY times all those years ago, he's been doing things the right way in the sport, and making it seen so that people know there's another choiuce. VDV and DZ by standing with Vaughters are in a much different place in my mind than Levi or George, who even now do little to nothing. Both DZ and VDV had worked toward clean cycling even before coming out with their own pasts.

Further, When you say the difference in punishment isnt justified by the other rolling "a few months" before Lance. Without those others, Lance, JB and the team docs would never have been popped, and as of yet, Lance hasn't rolled, just admitted his own guilt.

Vaughters made a good point today; though he's taken a lot of guff for his team having several ex-dopers, they do not employ any medical professionals with a doping background. IMO Getting the docs and and team managers is critical. Lance stood in the way of all of that. Add to the fact that he bought off the UCI for at least one test, and potentially got them to look the other way in 2009 & 2010 (though 2010 now looks like a universal downturn in UCI testing, for god knows what reason) when they had his passport and didnt do anything with it. 3 of the passport panel have now said it absolutely would have been a passport violation if they'd been given the data.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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This is not addressed to you in particular.


What are you supposed to do if you do something wrong? Yep your right I did it.

Do you turn yourself in if you look down and notice you were doing 66 in a 65? I bet you drive right to the police station and turn yourself in.

If someone pays you $20 to help them move you report it as income? If you forget and are reminded a couple of years later you report yourself to the IRS and pay penalties.

When people do things wrong they tend to lie about it. Honest Honey I only had one beer.

Lance was the center because he was the top rider on that team. If you have George wining and Lance supporting on that team then George is the center.

If you know I use HGH and you come up to me in the gym and ask me to acquire some for you do I become a pusher?

Some of you people are ridiculous and I admit that I break the law on an almost daily basis as I almost always go over the speed limit. I do everything I can to not get caught and if someone is following me somewhere I speed as well encouraging them to as well. I do not deserve to live.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [gdunha] [ In reply to ]
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i think you're missing part of the point here.

say i rob a bank. i go on a nice shopping spree and live really well. finally, after a decade of the good life, i feel guilty, so i go to church and confess to a priest. then i walk home and say, "all good! i guess that's behind me now!"

wrong. if you want to be contrite, and if you want to apologize, you do it on their terms, not yours. you make right to the bank, and to the people's savings you nicked, and you answer to the police. if you really want to make things right, you do it their way, on their time.

i think that's what rubs a lot of people wrong here. it's not that they expected lance to never make any mistakes, it's that he's being disingenuous in owning up.

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

here's what i think about lance armstrong. i think lance is obsessed with being the best. the best cyclist. the best doper. and now i think he's made the choice that when it comes to the current task - owning up to 15 years of doping and lying; making restitution; turning the page - i think he's now determined to be the best at that. certainly, this massive drive at being the best pointed toward the task of being humble and contrite is like asking a sumo wrestler to take up needlepoint. but i look at redemption stories like that of michael milken and i do see that redemption is possible. but it's only possible if you just flat admit to yourself and others the depth of what you've done. to that end, lance has done more than just publish a careful statement written with the help of those of whom the rider asks, "do you think this will be enough?"

accordingly, i am impressed with the effort lance is making, altho i acknowledge that he's not finished, we haven't seen it all, and it isn't going to be satisfactory until it's all finally out there.


I couldn't disagree more with this either.

He's not at all motivated to be the best at coming out and making amends. He's working to get the best deal he can on competition, he's trying to pay out the smallest amount on Qui Tam, etc. He didn't just pour it all out and hope for the best. He's doing the best for himself, not to make true amends like Milken. Maybe that will change, but his personality type, the laugh before answered when asked about the sophistication of his doping "It was professional", almost nothing indicated he's actually truly out for the best of others or cycling. There are some people in this that clearly are not out for themselves; he's not done anything IMO to show he isn't one of them. Remember he's had now 2 separate changes to sit down with Tygart and tell the truth, and the first one, he could have kept 5 tour wins and been working on his 2013 race calendar.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:
Slowman wrote:
whether you take his mea culpas at face value or not - i am impressed by the quality of the apology.



everything else you've (eloquently) said aside, i quarrel with this part.

i am singularly unimpressed with the quality of the 'apology.' (and with the form and timing of its delivery.)

-mike

Have to agree with you there.

I thought it was widely agreed that Armstrong's stocks actually went down after the 'apology'..?
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [AmaDablam] [ In reply to ]
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AmaDablam wrote:
Slowman wrote:

here's what i think about lance armstrong. i think lance is obsessed with being the best. the best cyclist. the best doper. and now i think he's made the choice that when it comes to the current task - owning up to 15 years of doping and lying; making restitution; turning the page - i think he's now determined to be the best at that. certainly, this massive drive at being the best pointed toward the task of being humble and contrite is like asking a sumo wrestler to take up needlepoint. but i look at redemption stories like that of michael milken and i do see that redemption is possible. but it's only possible if you just flat admit to yourself and others the depth of what you've done. to that end, lance has done more than just publish a careful statement written with the help of those of whom the rider asks, "do you think this will be enough?"

accordingly, i am impressed with the effort lance is making, altho i acknowledge that he's not finished, we haven't seen it all, and it isn't going to be satisfactory until it's all finally out there.


DId you watch the same interview the rest of did? The interview was a total fail. His performance has been universally panned as that of a merciless psycho with zero empathy for those he destroyed. Go to Google news and look up articles written after the interview. The words "quality of the apology" will not feature in any of them. Armstrong is being excoriated as Bernie Madoff on wheels, and a strong feeling that runs through most articles is that Armstrong looks far worse than he did before the interview.

On top of his miserable attempt to explain himself, he continues to flagrantly lie. It was exactly the type of interview where Armstrong's PR people gave him a carefully planned set of answers they hoped would be enough but Armstrong's reptilian-like cold bloodedness lacked any sort of human warmth that could have made the words believable or himself likeable.

The apologists are still looking for any excuse to lessen what Armstrong did. The latest talking point is that Armstrong's punishment is unfair because Zabriskie or Vande Velde or Leipheimer received a lesser sentence. This is bogus. Armstrong was not charged with simply doping like the others. He was charged with trafficking; facilitation, aiding, abetting, assisting, and administrating other riders' doping; intimidation, coercion, and bullying to further his doping conspiracy; etc. No other rider has ever been charged with the breadth and depth of doping related acts that Armstrong was sanctioned for. He personally took it upon himself to punish not only riders who had testified about doping but riders who were not doping that had spoken to the media about the doping problem.

Even so, Armstrong was given the opportunity to get a reduced sanction. Instead he attempted to destroy the anti-doping framework with ridiculous charges of unconstitutionality and lack of due process. He lost and now he is crying because, maybe for the first time in his life, the rules were applied to him. He is getting a feel for how the rest of us live and does not like it. Tough shit. He is a grown man. He made his choices. Now he can live with the outcome.

It appears that there are still those willing to take whatever bullshit Armstrong's PR people have dreamed up and promote it as though it were not a transparent attempt to excuse Armstrong.

I should have just "+1" this quote rather than what I said above.

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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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Ben, Dan,

I think it is totally irrelevant what Lance is motivated by. The rest of us can't do anything with the motivations of any human (well, if we are in charge of them, we can channel the motivation for a fruitful outcome, but none of us are in charge of Lance). What is important with him or anyone is the actions he/they take. Motivation is only an abstract catalyst inside someone's brain. Their actions are what the rest of the world experiences. I think we are in agreement on what actions he needs to take moving forward to help sport and clean the mess up. Trying to figure out his motivations are a waste of time. They don't really affect us. His actions do.

Dev
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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"Again to me the doping is secondary to LA, I look to the lives he destroyed, the legal monster he unleashed."

i agree with you. i don't think there is very much space between you and i on that count. all i'm saying is, levi and george stood by and spectated, sometimes even abetted, all of that, and never said a word, and profited by it. and i can even understand that, to a degree. what i can't understand is how these courageous, longsuffering role models are getting punished by not getting to race on thanksgiving and christmas.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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"Disagreed. Vaughters backed betsy and frankie anonymous in the NY times all those years ago, he's been doing things the right way in the sport, and making it seen so that people know there's another choiuce."

you disagree with what i wrote about vaughters? what did i write about vaughters?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"Disagreed. Vaughters backed betsy and frankie anonymous in the NY times all those years ago, he's been doing things the right way in the sport, and making it seen so that people know there's another choiuce."

you disagree with what i wrote about vaughters? what did i write about vaughters?

I disagree when you talk about the people involved, of which vaughters was one to testify, that no one has come forward or supported the andreaus.
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