I've raced the 404 & 303 in crazy Kona conditions. I can say on a bad crosswind day I was glad I had the 303. I never had a *quiet* conditions year where it was record setting favored winds--those seemed to happen on the years I skipped out on Hawaii. That said, I don't think it is going to make a huge difference, keeping your head down will be a larger time savings. The weight difference isn't enough to matter much on that course. What goes up must come down and the rim depth I think came into play in those nasty crosswinds near Hawi. You could even flip a coin and pick & still be good. If you're going to Kona, you're fast enough to control a 404 in the winds just fine.

I've raced Kona 7x ... this year will be my 8th and I'll be riding Zipp 458/858 combo.

I've ridden the course with 303/808 and 404/808 combinations in the past and I feel totally fine with the 404 on the front. I've never had really insane crosswinds on race day over the years but I've trained on the island in plenty of challenging crosswind conditions and never had an issue.

For reference... I'm a 130lb woman.

I think it is important to remember that part of Cam's decision to go with a shallower front was not just for safety but also efficiency. One can certainly be "fine" with riding a deeper front with tough crosswinds but even then they are expending more energy by fighting the effect of the cross-winds. Obviously there is probably a line for when the wind isn't strong enough to be worth it and that will be very different for every person since this is immeasurable. Plus, that's Cam's opinion, I think. I just agree with him in this instance :)

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

As someone said earlier..Cam (a guy who has ridden on the Pro Tour for 6 years) did the testing and rode a shallow wheel. Swiss Side has done the testing in the wind tunnel and said the shallow wheel in front makes more sense than a deep wheel, so I would go with those two (which is scientifically based). Why spend more energy than you have to.

---

"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"

First time at Kona. I have 808/808 combo at my disposal (actually had to track down the rear wheel as I ride a disc). I'm a 190lb male...as many have said, I'm sure I can handle the wind, but is it worth fighting it? Should I be on the lookout for a 404 to borrow from someone?

---

Blog: https://davidkoppeltriathlon.blogspot.com/
Coaching: https://dkendurance.com/

I would totally look for a 404 and not use an 808. I was there in 2017 and while the winds weren't bad, it was the worst I had ever seen personally. I also did not typically ride 808, so that was different even for the few test days at home before the race.

I just don't think its worth the energy expended physically and mentally. The cross winds hit from either side randomly.

Does it need to be a 404? If not get a good wheel thats equivalent to a 303 or 404 and save some money.

---

"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"

i chose 303 after riding out there for a month - not a great biker and only 5 years worth of experience - using 404/808 combo scared me to pieces - the 303 really made a big difference - hope to make it back some day but 404 will have to stay home

I’ve races both. Always glad to have a shallower rim on bad days. Never felt like I was giving away much time with the shallower rim on a calm day but 404 on a bad day is brutal. Get a 303 or Jet 4.

Rode 90's front and rear in 2016. Honestly wasn't awful, but I also have a deep bike background. You just have to know how to lean into the wind. That being said a 60/90 combo would have been more stable.

I'd say for most, 404/808 or equivalent is ideal. A good rider can go deeper.

---

---

Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

404 is fine the majority of days up by hawi.

BUT - Big - and I mean huge difference on wrong day between a 404 and 808 depth wheel. I've ridden 808 a few times but only when forecast is for low wind up towards hawi. 404 is the safe play and 303 won't be much better/worse so I don't think the 404/303 matters that much.

The safe play is the 404 if you are taking one wheel. I've ridden to Hawi 100+ times. 20 of them I wish I had a box spoke wheel with no depth at all given how bad wind gusts got...., 20 times an 808 was fine and the other 60 I would have chose a 404.

While race day over the past bunch of years has been fine, the wrong day on a deep wheel from the turn up to hawi and back is down right scary and not safe. I think people who have only ridden up there a few times and not experienced the bad days have no idea as on some days its nothing. I have no issue riding in big wind on an 808 but its an entirely different beast with the way the wind gusts up and down from the hawi section - its dangerous and I mean very dangerous on the wrong day.

Odds seem to be that it won't be that bad. but the odds are due to go the big wind day at some point.

Yes. You do not want to ride 808 on the front.

OP get a 458 nsw if you can. I have ridden many different wheels and I am a big fan of the performance of these in crosswind.

I rode a disc and 808 in storm like conditions. Swim was canned. I'm 158 pounds. Disc was fine, had some movement with the 808 front, but although the wind was very strong, it wasn't super gusty. Headwind and tailwind most of the way, so barely had any movement, the few sections where it was a direct crosswind, I leaned into the wind and it was fine. A few gusts took the bike almost onto the opposite side of the road which was interesting, but just made sure I was off the aero bars for the crosswind sections. So I think it really depends on wind direction, gusts, strength, riders biking ability. Also being prepared for the extra movement, helps. I just made sure I had plenty of space, no-one around me as I went through the cross wind parts and when you're expecting to get knocked about, it helps. You just get used to it. If you end up getting dumped into a ditch by the wind, it's most likely down to poor bike handling skills rather than wind.

Just quoting this because everyone seems to be skipping over/ignoring it.

Just because you have the skills to ride a deeper front in bad conditions doesn't mean it's the best choice.

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

I've raced Honu 3x and Kona (lottery) once with 404/404 and never had any handling issues. I would have preferred deeper in the back, but I never owned anything deeper...just a disc cover for all other non Kona tris or TTs.

The key to dealing with the cross winds on the Hawi descent is staying down on the aero bars and keeping your foot on the gas. You don't have to hammer down the hill, but the lower you keep your profile and the faster you go, the less the crosswinds impact you. The instant you sit up, or reduce speed, that's when the crosswinds will eat you up.

The thing about the Hawi descent though is that nobody stays all the way to the right of the road because the wind is coming from the left. So if you are in a crowd, passing at high speeds, dealing with crosswinds, while the rider your passing isn't staying right, it can get dicey as compared to just bombing down the hill all by yourself when you have the whole lane to navigate.

When I did Honu, I was a terrible swimmer, and solid biker. I passed most of the slower bikers by the top of Hawi, but there was some moments that got sketchy simply because I'm passing someone on the descent going 10-20 mph faster than them (20 mph for those that were sitting up terrified to descend) and they are riding the middle of the road.

When I did Kona, because I was a lottery guy, the road wasn't that crowded by the time I descended (most of them way ahead by then)...so again...404/404 wasn't that bad for me as I had most of the road and not too much bike traffic around me by mile 75 (or whatever it was).

But for you...as a qualifier, who I presume will be in the thick of things...that descent might be crowded...with you passing others and others passing you. Probably surrounded by a lot of Zwifters...LOL. I think I'd opt for shallower for those reasons.

Not sure about Wurf's analysis...but that may be due to the fact that he anticipates trying to handle his bike in the crosswinds will staying in the effective draft zone of the rider in front of him. If he was riding solo, then maybe a 404 front for him isn't that bad as he doesn't have to concentrate much so long as he doesn't go off the road. But if you're dealing with crosswinds and trying to make minuscule handling adjustments to get in whatever slipstream is available to you...I can see how that may take more effort.

While agree with what you are saying that riding an 808 and disc in big wind is fine it really is not the same on a bad day coming down from hawi. If you have not ridden it on a bad gusty day you really can't appreciate the difference in gusty winds on other flatter courses vs what you can experience coming down there. Its worse because the speeds can get very high with the gusts. Its the most scariest riding I have done when its one of those crazy wind days. Which obviously have not happened on race day for a long while.

I remember reading a post from Lance way back training there about it being some of the worst most dangerous wind he rode in....that was way back

Is there any aero testing data on the 454? $2k for a wheels seems absurd and purely marketing hype.

Zipp claims 15% reduction in crosswind feedback, which could be nice in Kona. But that was measured against a 60mm wheel, so even that seems a bit skeptical. I have yet to see any aero data that proves it's actually faster. They're claiming improved stability makes you faster, but so would a shallower wheel in that case. I'd probably just pick up a used 303 for $200-400 and call it a day.

I'll be using a Hed 6 front, which is about the same depth as a 404. I'm around 170 lbs, so hopefully a bit more stable than some lighter folks in the winds of Kona.

---

Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

In my experience X8, my 808/808 combo was just fine. Never an issue.

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

808 808 all day

---

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

303 for sure. I think you knew that answer yourself with you comments about your weight and handling as well as the time out of aero. Sometimes we just want everyone to tell us what we already know though right! All the best in Kona, I hope everything is amazing for you!

this... 404<303=808 my personal ranking for wind handling..might as well use the 808 if you have one.

Shipped the bike via TBT with the 303 on it. Could always bring the 404 with second thoughts, but let’s be honest—it really won’t matter very much!

And let’s just through a 858/858 if you have them. Racing always the fastest wheel set up.

---

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz