Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
When you think about "shit happens" during a race, this was not something that ever entered into my consciousness... Kona definitely has some Bermuda-Triangle-esque qualities when it comes to bikes.


Too bad about the saddle, thats gotta be a crazy way to go.

About the weird Kona failures, I wonder if part of it is all the abuse the racers' bikes get via the airlines (for those that send bikes that way) in transit and in ground handling. I imagine that some of the abuse the bikes get even clever engineers can't think up (and design for). Trust me, I have seen it all.

I agree with this idea. Perhaps two related reasons: 1. Many bags require a lot of disassembly and reassembly of the bikes. (hard cases) So while you get better protection from the baggage handling gangsters, you can also be your own worse enemy in terms of causing fatigue related failures.

2. Just the baggage handlers. I carried my P5 in a Scicon aerocomfort triathlon bag from Taipei-Seoul-Honolulu-Kona. Initially I was relieved to find all was perfect, but when I put the wheels on, my bars had been knocked off center by at least 20 degrees. I don't know how much force that would take to move them that far...but I bet I would not want to see what that force looked like when it was applied to my bike.

I feel bad for everyone who had technical problems on the biggest race of the year, and even more so for the Pros who put everything into their preparation and their livelihoods depending on the results.
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
When you think about "shit happens" during a race, this was not something that ever entered into my consciousness... Kona definitely has some Bermuda-Triangle-esque qualities when it comes to bikes.

Too bad about the saddle, thats gotta be a crazy way to go.

About the weird Kona failures, I wonder if part of it is all the abuse the racers' bikes get via the airlines (for those that send bikes that way) in transit and in ground handling. I imagine that some of the abuse the bikes get even clever engineers can't think up (and design for). Trust me, I have seen it all.

I do think this is a factor as to why you hear more stories about crazy stuff on race day for sure. But Kona seems to have more of its fair share, though I bet that's mostly just because the race is so big. I doubt it'd be much of a story if I had broken the saddle during the big leg of, say, Monterrey 70.3.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
When you think about "shit happens" during a race, this was not something that ever entered into my consciousness... Kona definitely has some Bermuda-Triangle-esque qualities when it comes to bikes.


Too bad about the saddle, thats gotta be a crazy way to go.

About the weird Kona failures, I wonder if part of it is all the abuse the racers' bikes get via the airlines (for those that send bikes that way) in transit and in ground handling. I imagine that some of the abuse the bikes get even clever engineers can't think up (and design for). Trust me, I have seen it all.


I do think this is a factor as to why you hear more stories about crazy stuff on race day for sure. But Kona seems to have more of its fair share, though I bet that's mostly just because the race is so big. I doubt it'd be much of a story if I had broken the saddle during the big leg of, say, Monterrey 70.3.

I think Kona has more than its fair share for this type of story because EVERYONE flies there and has to take their bikes apart and put it back together. If you take IMLP, Louisville, Maryland, or Tremblant, probably 80-90% of the field gets there by car so they are not taking their bikes apart to the same degree. Kona just has the highest single day total of bikes on the race course that happened to fly to get there.
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
[quote devashish_paul
I think Kona has more than its fair share for this type of story because EVERYONE flies there and has to take their bikes apart and put it back together. If you take IMLP, Louisville, Maryland, or Tremblant, probably 80-90% of the field gets there by car so they are not taking their bikes apart to the same degree. Kona just has the highest single day total of bikes on the race course that happened to fly to get there.[/quote]



I agree Dev, and the temperature changes and high vibration of air flight VS. Kona temps adds to the issue. Contraction and expansions sure to the extremes is always a possible cause to bolts and torques being off especially with dissimilar metals and carbon. Always check bikes and components completely when flying.
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [logella] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That would be incorrect.

Regards

David

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tell us what you know David.
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [logella] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Here's what Cervelo say happened to Heather:

*"The good folks from Cervelo and an expert from Shimano took a good look at my bike this afternoon. Turns out the actual Di2 failure was a 1 in a never seen before problem with the shifting mechanism within the derailer. It had nothing to do with the electronics - the signal was arriving but the worm gear that drives the shifting was somehow broken/shredded (possibly by an impact, loads of riding, then another impact - in transition somehow? A final straw kind of deal, which is why it worked fine the day before and to start on race day, but snapped during the ride). Basically just incredibly unlucky and there was nothing I could do to fix it."

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
rferic18 wrote:
Didn't Rapp's saddle break?


Yes. The saddle rails snapped in four places. Progressively. One rail snapped about 30km into the ride, and it was manageable, but with the saddle being weakened by the one rail snapping, it just kept breaking more. By the time I was climbing to Hawi, the saddle was basically just loosely held onto to the top of the seatpost.

After the turnaround in Hawi, I flagged down tech support and sad, "I need a saddle." They had one guys bike on the roof, and we just pulled the saddle off and swapped it in. But obviously wasn't able to position it correctly. It was better than what I had, but it was pitched way up, so I had the choice of either riding it MTB style - sitting back big-slam style on it - or sitting with the nose of the saddle jammed into my prostate. I needed to stand a lot to take pressure off and just generally was pretty uncomfortable. But I was able to finish the ride and thought I might run okay. But my legs were pretty messed up from doing 150km without proper support under my ass...

When you think about "shit happens" during a race, this was not something that ever entered into my consciousness... Kona definitely has some Bermuda-Triangle-esque qualities when it comes to bikes.

At IM Chattanooga this year (also happened to be my first IM) around mile 20 or so, out of nowhere I had a spoke break in half on my HED Jet 9 front wheel. Not at the connection point but literally right in the middle of the spoke. I hit no significant potholes, bumps, or the like. I had gone through a bunch of "@#$% happens" scenarios but this was certainly not one of them.

Race Reports, etc -- Bob's Bikes
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bryancd wrote:
Here's what Cervelo say happened to Heather:

*"The good folks from Cervelo and an expert from Shimano took a good look at my bike this afternoon. Turns out the actual Di2 failure was a 1 in a never seen before problem with the shifting mechanism within the derailer. It had nothing to do with the electronics - the signal was arriving but the worm gear that drives the shifting was somehow broken/shredded (possibly by an impact, loads of riding, then another impact - in transition somehow? A final straw kind of deal, which is why it worked fine the day before and to start on race day, but snapped during the ride). Basically just incredibly unlucky and there was nothing I could do to fix it."

So it was a mechanical problem. Can't wait to see what all the mechanical/anti-electronic folks have to say.

blog
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've had brake cables break at the head where it inserts into the lever stop and there's nothing one can do about that except replace brake cables more regularly or preventatively, moreso if riding in the wet.
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [stevej] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not seen too many shredded "worm gears that drives the shifting" in meachanical systems.... I'm just messing with ya. ;)

What I will say - and this is just my opinion on the matter - is that it seems that when something goes wrong in an elctronic system, it tends to be "terminal" or race-ending, whereas with mechanical you can bash it around and still get some gears working and finish the ride...

For me that's the only reason I run mechanical - but I will be getting the SRAM wireless when they release a 1X11 version :)
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Guddis] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Guddis wrote:
Carbon cranks brake. Done it 4 times.

Are you extremely unlucky, or is there a subtext here?

29 years and counting
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Doesn't surprise me. Based on my experiences (2 broken stems, 1 broken crank, 1 broken saddle), I trust carbon over titanium any day. There are just too many variables in material and welding with titanium and the failures are usually catastrophic.

Dean Wilson
http://www.anaerobiczone.com
Bicycle Protection Indoors & Out
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [stevej] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
stevej wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
Here's what Cervelo say happened to Heather:

*"The good folks from Cervelo and an expert from Shimano took a good look at my bike this afternoon. Turns out the actual Di2 failure was a 1 in a never seen before problem with the shifting mechanism within the derailer. It had nothing to do with the electronics - the signal was arriving but the worm gear that drives the shifting was somehow broken/shredded (possibly by an impact, loads of riding, then another impact - in transition somehow? A final straw kind of deal, which is why it worked fine the day before and to start on race day, but snapped during the ride). Basically just incredibly unlucky and there was nothing I could do to fix it."


So it was a mechanical problem. Can't wait to see what all the mechanical/anti-electronic folks have to say.

Isn't the wormgear peculiar to an electronic system? So yeah it is "mechanical", but it is a fairly precisely engineered component that is only required in an electronic derailleur system, therefore a potential weakness (it seems) that you wouldn't have in your purely mechanical setup.




That said, I'd still buy Di2 if I could afford it!! Cos of shiny.
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [SAvan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Good point as that does seem to be the case but that's kind of expected with electronic shifting.

I think one of the biggest issues with electronic shifting is pinching the wires. We travel with our bikes to all these races and can get in rush when putting it back together. You have to be careful when putting it together to not pinch any of the wires as they are small enough and flexible enough to be easily pinched without you noticing right away. Connections can also come loose during travel (especially if you fly with your bike) so I think all connections should be checked for proper seating. Electronics are not for everyone and people need to understand how they work. If people understood the system better, they would be cognizant of potential issues and probably have a lot less of them.

Obviously there are other cases of odd failures but with any kind of technology, you take that risk,

blog
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
knighty76 wrote:
stevej wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
Here's what Cervelo say happened to Heather:

*"The good folks from Cervelo and an expert from Shimano took a good look at my bike this afternoon. Turns out the actual Di2 failure was a 1 in a never seen before problem with the shifting mechanism within the derailer. It had nothing to do with the electronics - the signal was arriving but the worm gear that drives the shifting was somehow broken/shredded (possibly by an impact, loads of riding, then another impact - in transition somehow? A final straw kind of deal, which is why it worked fine the day before and to start on race day, but snapped during the ride). Basically just incredibly unlucky and there was nothing I could do to fix it."


So it was a mechanical problem. Can't wait to see what all the mechanical/anti-electronic folks have to say.

Isn't the wormgear peculiar to an electronic system? So yeah it is "mechanical", but it is a fairly precisely engineered component that is only required in an electronic derailleur system, therefore a potential weakness (it seems) that you wouldn't have in your purely mechanical setup.




That said, I'd still buy Di2 if I could afford it!! Cos of shiny.

Yes it is. Probably should have been more specific in my statement. Like you said, it was a mechanical problem but only specific to electronic systems.

blog
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [stevej] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The electronic units on the road are all pretty new. One of my bikes has a derailleur that is almost 30 years old and still shifting fine.

Time will tell how the new stuff holds up for the long haul.
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
It would if I didn't have another friend tell me post-race that he snapped rails on two separate occasions on an SHC170... I've already pinged John about this. Seems he needs to have a sit-down with QC with whomever is making his saddles.

That said, I've ridden a HC or SHC 170 for six years and this is the first time I've ever had an issue in tens of thousands of miles.

How old is the saddle?
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Guddis] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Guddis wrote:
Carbon cranks brake. Done it 4 times.

Maybe stop pedalling so hard?
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
They don't snap. The hardwear inside get loose, in the end the pedal get ripped out. or the crank arm get ripped of. I think that bikes and gear is not built for heavy persons. Last week i ripped of the carbon soles on my shoes during a one leg drill on my trainer. First the right then the left. Carbon works best when it is only carbon. As an hybrid bonded to something els it sucks.

http://www.gudmundsnilstveit.com
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
1 in never???? I had a brand new DA Di2 RD(about 45 min of use) have the gear mech in the RD fail. ie motor would move but gear drive no longer connected to it. No issues with replacement
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [kcb203] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kcb203 wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
It would if I didn't have another friend tell me post-race that he snapped rails on two separate occasions on an SHC170... I've already pinged John about this. Seems he needs to have a sit-down with QC with whomever is making his saddles.

That said, I've ridden a HC or SHC 170 for six years and this is the first time I've ever had an issue in tens of thousands of miles.

How old is the saddle?

It was new for my Kona 2012 bike. I rode it Sept 2012 - Dec 2013. In 2014, I switch to Specialized because I knew that every athlete was on the chopping block, and while they had tolerated my riding the Cobb, I knew they weren't pleased with it. All other things being equal, I was pretty sure that unless I somehow managed to win every race I did, it would likely be reason enough to trim me from the roster. So given that I wasn't super confident about my racing at the time, I switched to the Romin EVO for 2014. I liked it a lot, just not quite as much as the Cobb. And then I put it back on for this year.

So, all in, it has about 24 months of riding on it. But I do about 60% of my riding on my road bike. So I'd guess that it maybe has 8,000mi on it.

Sorry for the long answer to the short question.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [stevej] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
stevej wrote:
knighty76 wrote:
stevej wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
Here's what Cervelo say happened to Heather:

*"The good folks from Cervelo and an expert from Shimano took a good look at my bike this afternoon. Turns out the actual Di2 failure was a 1 in a never seen before problem with the shifting mechanism within the derailer. It had nothing to do with the electronics - the signal was arriving but the worm gear that drives the shifting was somehow broken/shredded (possibly by an impact, loads of riding, then another impact - in transition somehow? A final straw kind of deal, which is why it worked fine the day before and to start on race day, but snapped during the ride). Basically just incredibly unlucky and there was nothing I could do to fix it."


So it was a mechanical problem. Can't wait to see what all the mechanical/anti-electronic folks have to say.

Isn't the wormgear peculiar to an electronic system? So yeah it is "mechanical", but it is a fairly precisely engineered component that is only required in an electronic derailleur system, therefore a potential weakness (it seems) that you wouldn't have in your purely mechanical setup.




That said, I'd still buy Di2 if I could afford it!! Cos of shiny.

Yes it is. Probably should have been more specific in my statement. Like you said, it was a mechanical problem but only specific to electronic systems.

Looks like E-shifting derailleurs are less tolerant of impacts; advantage "mechanicals"

res, non verba
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Guddis] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [RoYe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This from fitwerx.com:
One concern with Di2 is that the $900 rear derailleur is a big deal to replace in the event of a crash. Shimano engineers realized this and, should the bike crash and strike the rear derailleur, it disengages the worm drive and moves inbound towards the wheel to protect itself. When the system is put under load again, after a few shifts it resets. Should the crash be bad enough that the automatic alignment does not reset to your liking, you can use the system adjustment buttons on the fly to adjust the shifting. This adjustment only takes seconds when practiced and it is actually easier than a standard cable adjustment.

So it seems that Shimano anticipated a shock side loading and properly engineered the rear derailleur shift mechanism to withstand some sort of side impact which, in the absence of a 'breakaway safeguard' would try to drive the worm gear via the ring gear which is mechanically not possible. This is a mysterious failure indeed. My engineer's gut tells me this likely happened through some form of side loading during shipping...perhaps multiple times, bouncing in the plane cargo hold, continual loading from stuff piled on top of the bike...something along those lines. Murphy can be a real dickhead.
Quote Reply

Prev Next