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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [TriTamp] [ In reply to ]
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TriTamp wrote:
wannabefaster wrote:
TriTamp wrote:


As a MOPer, I would not be too pleased about being drug tested.



Really? As a MOP racer, trying to get to the front of the race, it is my dream to be relevant enough to be tested. If drug testing showed up at my house or took me aside at a race I would take that as a sign that I finally 'made it'. That would be something worthy of posting to a twitter feed ;-)


haha. you'd be offering blood, urine, and stool samples. lol

This one would be worthy of framing next to the speeding ticket on the bicycle!

AG'ers doping, I still can't get that through my head....
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [TrierinKC] [ In reply to ]
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TrierinKC wrote:
TriTamp wrote:
wannabefaster wrote:
TriTamp wrote:


As a MOPer, I would not be too pleased about being drug tested.



Really? As a MOP racer, trying to get to the front of the race, it is my dream to be relevant enough to be tested. If drug testing showed up at my house or took me aside at a race I would take that as a sign that I finally 'made it'. That would be something worthy of posting to a twitter feed ;-)


haha. you'd be offering blood, urine, and stool samples. lol


This one would be worthy of framing next to the speeding ticket on the bicycle!

AG'ers doping, I still can't get that through my head....

Agree. It makes no sense to me. There are just people who will do far more than me to reach their goals. I'll never understand an age grouper doping. I understand baseball players who have done it. But it's paid off financially for them big time. For me, it's a hobby sport and I enjoy and want to do well but certainly my ego is not tied up enough in this sport to ever think I would want to dope.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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MarkyV wrote:
What annoys me about it is two fold.

I've had a similar complaint about in-competition category/masters testing in USA Cycling racing. They claim they'll show up at any random amateur race. But so far they've largely shown up at NRC (pro) races that also have masters/category events. I get it. Testers are already there and they tend to be high-profile events. Cost savings. But it makes things predictable.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [kennykill] [ In reply to ]
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I think this comes back to the idea of having an competitive and a recreational category. If you want to compete for prizes, slots, awards, etc. then you sign up competitive and are in the testing pool. Otherwise, you are a recreational athlete and are out there just for fun.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
But it makes things predictable.

That's all the perp needs to know. Low probability... easily snuck by. Anointed marketing asset or prominent athlete in WTC eyes, results management sweeps the positive away. There's a reason "no names" are the only professionals announced as caught.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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MarkyV wrote:
trail wrote:
But it makes things predictable.


That's all the perp needs to know. Low probability... easily snuck by. Anointed marketing asset or prominent athlete in WTC eyes, results management sweeps the positive away. There's a reason "no names" are the only professionals announced as caught.

I'm not naĂ¯ve, but that is a strong accusation that USADA can be bought when they perform testing for WTC. Do you have evidence or are you merely speculating?
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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MarkyV wrote:
There's a reason "no names" are the only professionals announced as caught.

Yeah, a former pro IM athlete (whose identity I don't want to reveal without his consent), told me that in the not-too-distant past he knew of a couple of guys who were quietly told by WTC to "take 6 months off" rather than expose their positives publicly. I tend to trust the guy. He's a pro with credibility.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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That would be a nice policy.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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WTC handles their own results management. They don't contract with USADA for all of their testing. After acquisition it's just a number that gets matched up on their side. USADA never knows.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I've heard the same thing. One needn't look hard for certain folks that have taken extended breaks from WTC racing.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
They do. I can attest to it. One of my AG guys that qualified in 2015 got tested OOC pre Kona 2015 (US athlete, US based).

How much they do? Who nows....

Recalling a con call i was on in late 2009 when the first rumblings of a union were gaining steam... Jarrod asked some pointed question to PNF who was WTC's rep on the call which was responded to with "WTC is a private enterprise that does not have to reveal trade secrets in this area." The question had something to do with professional racing under the WTC banner... nothing that remotely would touch upon trade secrets yet that was the stone wall that was raised. Translation: they didnt give a shit then, dont give a shit now. Hiding all that info is the best management practice.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
I think this comes back to the idea of having an competitive and a recreational category. If you want to compete for prizes, slots, awards, etc. then you sign up competitive and are in the testing pool. Otherwise, you are a recreational athlete and are out there just for fun.

That's me. Recreational. For ironman events, I am not near good enough to compete for prizes, slots, awards. MOPer all the way. Trying to get faster of course. I would understand drug testing if I was closer to FOP and going for slots, awards, etc. But I'm not. It would be a waste of resources testing me.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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MarkyV wrote:
WTC handles their own results management. They don't contract with USADA for all of their testing. After acquisition it's just a number that gets matched up on their side. USADA never knows.

Thanks. I was completely unaware of this technical process and would not have expected that USADA would have ceded their control of results. In this case, WTC does have a conflict of interest when adverse results would impede their marketing plans. It's disappointing, but certainly not shocking.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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USADA results management can be found here:
http://www.usada.org/...thlete-test-history/

(specific search terms don't produce a new URL)

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
Last edited by: MarkyV: Oct 17, 16 14:01
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
I think this comes back to the idea of having an competitive and a recreational category. If you want to compete for prizes, slots, awards, etc. then you sign up competitive and are in the testing pool. Otherwise, you are a recreational athlete and are out there just for fun.

Yes, fully agree. This is something that should be looked at and tried out for a season!
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Hello MarkyV and All,

To reduced the cost of personnel to administer drug tests that are a significant expense ...... it seems that there are agencies and labs that could be 'deputized' to do the tests for outlying locations.

http://www.drugfreesport.com/...ort-drug-testing.asp

When I worked for an airline I was 'suprised' drug tested at various locations by contract personnel ..... usually on arrival in the United States .... so the agencies are available .... like the one above.



Also http://www.americanscreeningcorp.com/Default.aspx shows an FDA approved 12 panel cup for about $4.37 per test and they advertise drug tests for sweat, spit, and so on at reasonable costs.

http://www.theathlete.org/...esting-In-Sports.htm

Excerpt:

"According to an August 2013 article printed in the British newspaper, The Daily Mail, the Word Anti-Doping Agency (or WADA for short) administered more than 267,000 drug tests to athletes around the world in 2012. Of the tests administered, approximately 3200 (or 1.2%) of the results came back as positive or had adverse findings that disqualified offending athletes from competition or resulted in forfeitures of wins or medals.The testing procedures for drug abuse in sports are strict and at times deemed unfair by athletes. They are deemed unfair because athletes are responsible for knowing what is banned despite the fact that additions are made almost daily to the list of banned substances. The best possible solution is to avoid all drugs unless listed on the allowed substance list."

On balance 1.2% positive does not seem to be a major problem .... and 267,000 is a lot of drug tests .... so WADA is doing a pretty good job on the face of it.

http://www.ncaa.org/...s-about-drug-testing

"The penalty for a positive test for a performance-enhancing drug (PED) is strict and automatic: student-athletes lose one full year of eligibility for the first offense (25 percent of their total eligibility) and are withheld from competition for 365 days from the date of the test. A second positive test for a PED results in the loss of all remaining eligibility.

The penalty for a positive test for a substance in the street drug class is withholding from competition for 50% of the season in all sports in which the student-athlete participates. A second positive test for a street drug results in the loss of a year of eligibility and withholding from participation for 365 days from the test."

http://www.usada.org/testing/

"Testing is an important part of any effective anti-doping program, and the area that most often comes to mind when thinking about anti-doping. From test planning and collection of a urine or blood sample, through the results managements process, USADA provides a thorough program, with policies and procedures in accordance with the World Anti-Doping Code, the WADA International Standards, the United States Olympic Committee Anti-Doping Rules, and the USADA Protocol for Olympic and Paralympic Movement Testing."

It would be interestng to see what actual costs are for drug testing and what devices and procedures will be available in the near term to reduce those costs and improve the efficiency of the process.

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Rhetorical question as to testing just the pointy end. What about the random 35 yo with low T that is taking T & never considered that it is banned? How many people here take Allegra-D for allergies? Both would be positive & if you are content with only testing the pointy end then you need to be content that you are racing against people on drugs. To me cheating is cheating; it shouldn't be acceptable for anyone to do.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Are those labs in the link your referenced WADA accredited?


Having had a drug screen for work, surgery prep, and other things, I can tell you that the USADA/WADA process is significantly different in test administration then the others I have experienced .
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcoffee wrote:
kennykill wrote:
Would it not be good practice to test all Kona qualifiers on their qualifying raceday (after they've crossed the line), and then again randomly at some point before Kona raceday?

I've no idea of logistics or cost, but I would think once all Kona Qualifiers are known (approx. 2500 athletes), it should be a straight forward exercise in picking random dates and testing all competitors before Kona raceday? Same could be done for 70.3 Worlds too no?

I think that way you know have some confidence they were clean when they qualified, and the so-called "world championships" are clean too.


Think about the cost involved in testing 2500 people. Think about what is required in terms of people and $$ just to test one athlete.


To be honest, once the table is set up, and it's a production line, the difficulty and time issues get reduced.
For example, from my short order cooking days, one steak takes say 10 minutes. 2 steaks takes 11 minutes and 20 steaks takes 30 minutes. The overall time drops from 10 minutes per steak to 1.5 minutes per steak. I suspect the same would happen with blood tests.
And if you're paying for the team to fly to Kona to test one guy, they're already there, so even if the time takes the same one hour each time, they're there all day so test 10 guys in 10 hours, pretty much for the same staff cost.
Both time and cost decrease by testing more people.
Lets say it's $500 per test and an hour per test. Test 10% of the people and add $50 to the race entry fee. $50? Triathletes wouldn't even notice $50

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [tridork] [ In reply to ]
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and an hour per test. Test 10% of the people and add $50 to the race entry fee. $50? Triathletes wouldn't even notice $50

wrong, and not this triathlete.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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Hello turningscrews and All,

If I understand your comment you are in favor of testing everyone or at least most athletes.

If there was more widespread testing and the random 35 year old tested positive for a banned drug (and there were very many athletes) they would probably be granted a TUE .... same with athlete allergies ..... same with pros like Wiggins using drugs for medical condition therapy.

What is a banned drug and what is not changes over time also .... we live in a changing world .... and when banned drugs or procedures are use for injury therapy the matter is complicated by the division of what is therapy and what is a PED.

What percentage of triathlon athletes should be tested in your view?

I think one of the primary limits to more widespread testing is costs...... both materials and personnel.

Make the test program cheap enough and it could be more widespread .... although more positive drug tests could just result in more TUE's .... especially for amateur age groupers.

The question is how to both lower drug testing costs and find an acceptable way to pass the costs to the customer without impacting the bottom line ..... and still weed out the egregious PED users .... to provide athlete confidence in a level playing field.

Remember that triathlon is a business ...... as are many adult sports .... and how much would the business suffer if there was no testing at all?

It appears at present there is enough testing and penalties to make most of the customers happy .... although that level of testing can go up or down over time .... dependent on customers' attitudes and costs.

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
Are those labs in the link your referenced WADA accredited?


Having had a drug screen for work, surgery prep, and other things, I can tell you that the USADA/WADA process is significantly different in test administration then the others I have experienced .

I think this is the point that people are failing to understand. In addition to chain of custody there are standards for the labs as well, If it is correct from a previous poster there are essentially 3 accredited labs in all of NA, for a population of close to 400 million. (Montreal and 2 in U.S.)

Combine that with the 5 or 6 step process to actually collect a sample (and be correct..and limit liability on appeal), then there is a huge amount of human capitol involved in just collection.

WTC could however increase threat, IE at any and all IM or 70.3 if you have intentions of going you need to sign an AD consent form...IE before people steal a slot they need to know that there might be an AD presence at the race.

Including anyone there who has intentions, roll down or out right Q...*you might be randomly selected* at sign in on the day after the race. You could then do zero, four or forty tests.

I am a bit torn between catching dopers or letting them crawl away so a legit guy who is 6-10th ag gets in the race, in this situation it's not that someone will get a ban...but someone else was robbed.

Of course the best of both worlds is better.

Maurice
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
Quote:
and an hour per test. Test 10% of the people and add $50 to the race entry fee. $50? Triathletes wouldn't even notice $50


wrong, and not this triathlete.

It appears you're the exception that proves the rule. :-)

Even back in the day when I was a starving student with 2 kids, somehow TriSpouse managed to find $500 for my first IM race entry, plus travel expenses, plus, plus, plus, and if the entry was $550, I'd still have done the race. $50 doesn't even cover one night at a Motel 6. $50 hidden a race entry fee wouldn't stop anyone, and I include you in that group.

Kona? we all just pay what it costs. The total cost of racing Kona is stratospheric. $50 isn't even a blip in that cost.

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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nealhe wrote:
It appears at present there is enough testing and penalties to make most of the customers happy .... although that level of testing can go up or down over time .... dependent on customers' attitudes and costs.

What planet do you live on?
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [tridork] [ In reply to ]
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The cost of Kona/a WTC race has nearly doubled since 2007. I do not support an additional 5% cost increase to enable wide spread testing. The typical triathlete has not seen their disposable income double in that timeframe.

While I support testing, WTC does not currently have enough transparency on who they are testing, when they are testing, and the results of that testing.

When WTC commits to those things, I will support an additional 5%/$50/some other "KQ eligibility fee" to help enable further drug testing.

WTC needs to prove they are doing what they say they are doing, and as has been mentioned the fact that the majority of people caught are AGers, makes me question if they are doing what they say they are doing.

FTR - if WTC had a page like this: http://www.usada.org/...thlete-test-history/ I would probably no longer question their transparency.
Last edited by: sentania: Oct 17, 16 17:48
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