I did the Dallas Marathon yesterday. It was unseasonably hot and humid. I ran a 4:08 which was a little disappointing but for my first open Marathon, I probably set my expectations too high. I maintained a LCHF diet through the last three weeks of training. I did, however, consume 6 gels during the race (miles 1, 5, 9, 13, 17 and 21). My cardio was fine. My nutrition seemed fine (I didn't bonk) but my legs were complaining the last 5 miles and especially the last two. I also had self imposed problems with my 910XT which complicated my pacing. I started experimenting with the LCHF diet too late in the training cycle to know how long and how fast I could go in training on just fat and stored glycogen (thus all the gels). Perhaps I can get a better handle on those factors as I switch to training for the Lonestar 70.3. It may well be that I run so damn slow that I don't burn much glucose. :-)

What I did learn is that 26 miles is a long way to run.

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Panabax

We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.—Robert Wilensky

Even longer when you eff with your nutrition and change your diet around three weeks out...

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Well said!

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Panabax

We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.—Robert Wilensky

I'm not sure if anyone posted in this thread, but here is a pretty comprehensive keto calculator I stumbled across this morning.

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

seeing this thread pop up again id like to mention my performances using carb cycling.

I train 100mpw with minimal carbs which come from raw veggies. Only night before the marathon I eat a large soft baked pretzel for carbs. The race I did 3:06:28 just using 2 gels - my peak run with out nutrition was 20.5 miles. Right now i am a week out from next marathon, with my no nutrition long run at 23 miles (3:10) most of my long runs 1 minute slower than race pace

You may find this of interest - I'll be doing a talk show on this very topic on Thursday this week, 4PST/7EST at:

http://www.askthelowcarbexperts.com/

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Ben Greenfield

Nutrition & Human Performance Advice
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com

I apologize if someone posted this already but here is a post from Bob Seebohar who has been experimenting with Low Carb/High Fat for ultra events. I'm racing short distance this year so am not tempted to test it out, but it might be of interest to you.

http://bobseebohar.blogspot.com/...-results-are-in.html

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Founder: BestBikeSplit
Amazonian

Thanks for the information:o)

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A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
Albert Einstein

After reading the Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance I decided to implement this lifestyle and see if this works well for me. The following "story" shows the progression of my diet and overall body comp, and general perception of how I feel and train.


Background;


25 years old, 185 lbs +/-, years in tri -2, larger build with broad shoulder and chest, large legs due to years of hockey training.
Played high level hockey (up to University level) all my life. Training consisted of power, fastwitch, dynamic movement based exercises and workouts. I was involved in many others sports my whole life and generally quite athletic. I had no dietary discipline until age 21. I was able to stay relatively fit and was a successful athlete by just "eating normal."


When I was 19-21 I moved away to the eastern states to play university hockey. Living a campus lifestyle and lack of home cooking I experienced a 20 lb weight gain from 2007 - 2008. I was playing hockey 6 days a week and also still training. This leads me to believe that the switch from home cooked meals to campus meals had a pretty severe effect on my body composition. I was carrying extra weight but my performance did not suffer to much.

The next season I went back to Alberta and "red shirted" with the U of A hockey team. Still practicing and training, but no game play, I gained another 20 lbs. over the 2008 - 2009 season.


March 2009: Since I knew I was eligible to participate in game play the next season (2009 - 2010) I decided to "get back in game shape"


Diet Experiment 1: March 2009 - February 2011


Eliminated all carbs, sugar (except for fruit), and generally ate meat and veggies. Training was consistent with my past hockey training, although I also upped the running and more bodyweight work on my own time. Before bed I would do 200 situps and 100 pushups. Went from 240 lbs in March to 185 lbs at fitness testing in Sept 2009. VO2 max was 60, scored top class on all tests. On ice performance was incredible and had a outstanding season.


* implemented some quinoa and wild rice back into diet that year and the occasional carb load or cheat evening. Stayed in low 180's the whole time, ab definition, great performance.


Diet Experiment 2: March 2011 - March 2012 (finished playing competitive hockey)


Tim Ferris - Slow Carb Diet.


First year in tri, still had a more fast twitch, weight training heavy regimen. Body comps remained the same and fitness was the same. 2 races, good results for first year in sport.


Diet Experiment 3: March 2012 - December 2012 (full dedication to tri)


Vegan Diet


Massive volume increase in all 3 sports. Integrated way more carbs, fruit, and (bad vegan options) into my diet. No weight training due to job and tri training volumes needed to be met. New job, new city, new responsibilities. 23 yrs old.


Result: Negative effect on body comp. Lost muscle and increased fat. Massive swings in blood sugar, energy, mood, and overall well being. Did however have a successful season; 1 sprint, 2 HIM, 1 IM (first, 11:30). Gained weight.


Diet Experiment 3: January 2013 - Present (best tri training yet)


Ketosis


Body Comp is returning. lost 5 lbs, muscle definition is coming back. Energy levels are balanced. Training is great and I am exceeding my performance goals so far. Currently doing 100 runs / 100 days and feeling great. Weight training 3 x per week, and body weight exercises which focus on legs more.


Conclusion


I perform better and feel better on a Low Carb diet. (65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carb) Body is keto adapted and monitor ketosis with keto stix. Goal is to get from current weight of 185 to 170 by April 1. Recovery is quick.


Never felt better.

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the suffer, the pain, the reward

R Wolansky

based on your post you seem to overlook something. what you eat doesnt have an effect on your body composition. its HOW MUCH you eat.

you gained weight switching to "campus food" because you ate more than you needed. no other reason.

for the millionth time, ketogenic diets for exercise arent a good idea. they are only a good idea as a last resort for uncontrolled epilepsy.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

If we remove the "campus food" years and look at when I was in "shape" ie: after the large weight loss, these are my thoughts.


From my own experience on the last two eating regimen's I was on, what I eat DOES contribute to how MY body composition it affected. When I look at my vegan diet vs traditional keto diet; it is evident that the keto food choices work better with my body.

Point 1) My total caloric intake was far lower on a vegan diet vs my keto diet. I tracked this with my fitness pal. This contradicts the traditional calories in vs calories out.

Point 2) Since my vegan diet was in the heart of tri season my body composition change was not a product of lack or exercise or over eating (which was explained in point 1).

Point 3) Once I removed soy, and dialed back the loads of veggies and fruit I was eating; and replaced this with eggs, fish, and premium green veggies which are low carb, my body comp changed quite rapidly. Not only from the water loss, but after 3 weeks I could see old definition I used to have.

Long story short, I think that each athlete should experiment and figure out the right balance for them. What worked for me, may not work for others. My biggest success is being able to be conscious of the dietary changes and the effect on my own body. It is a life long journey and at 25 yrs old, I am hoping I can dial in a good balance which works for me now, so that when I am 40 years old I am not shooting aimlessly into the dark.


*I am pretty sure the keto diet designed for epilepsy is far more stringent then the diet outlined in Phinney and Volek's Low Carb for Performance Athletes. In fact the ratio's are quite different:


Keto for epilepsy -The diet is usually started in a 4:1 ratio (4 parts fat to 1 part protein and carbohydrate.


Keto for endurance athlete (what I implement) - 65% +/- fat , 30% +/- protein, 5% carbs (net)

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the suffer, the pain, the reward

R Wolansky

I have been trying to get the same results on the same style diet. I find I can not get quality intensity work while in ketosis. Have re incorporated carbs and performance has increased energy levels are better but weight/body comp stays the same. I am temped to try keto again because I continue to hear success stories and it is a fun diet. How are you fueling around your workouts?

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This has been my weekly schedule since jan.

Monday - Tempo run 1 hr, weights 1 hr
Tues - am swim, run 30 min
Wed - body weight workout, 45 min hill run, 1 hr bike (sufferfest)
Thurs - am swim, 30 min run
Fri - weights 1 hr, 30 min run, 1 bike
Sat - 2 hr run
Sun - swim, long bike, easy run

I believe since I am keto adapted my body is able to use fat during workouts. No fuel during any workout except water.

Pre workout caffeine

3 meals a day, some snacks like pumpkin seeds, walnuts, almonds and a scoop or two of natural almond or peanut butter.

During my long runs I don't eat anything, just water and salt tabs

After 40 days, I had a cheat evening (on v day) tones of candy, and I was back in ketotis this morning.

I am also looking to experiment with keto friendly fuel once training picks up. Ideas? Coconut oil, almonds .... Not sure though.

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the suffer, the pain, the reward

R Wolansky

Forgot to mention that I have continued to have great runs, with rather quick recovery.

No struggle with intensity during tempo or strength runs.

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the suffer, the pain, the reward

R Wolansky

I can get in fairy quickly as well how long did it take for you to adapt?

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3 weeks. Looking for more weight loss now. I also have had a problem with under fueling and going into "starvation" which has impacted weight loss attempts in the past. Going to keep following plan and adjust as needed.

I will admit that sometimes the nut butters get the best of me. It would stall weight loss if I ate too much, but nonetheless I would still be in keto and have great training sessions.

Being keto adapted theoretically should be a great asset as an endurance athlete.

FYI - did a 16.5 mile run today. Ate breakfast at 7 am. Ran at 10 am. No fuel, no problems at all.

Still I think that i will need to devise some keto snacks for long bikes rides was the snow melts and roads clear.

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the suffer, the pain, the reward

R Wolansky

You should try coconut butter instead of nut butter its made by Artisana. They sell it at Lassens and Whole foods they even sell it in packets now like gels although its tough to squeeze on the bike because its kind of hard unless it gets warm. It has a few carbs 7g in 2 tbsp (5 fiber, 1.9 sugar) but its got 18 grams of fat and never affects ketosis for me and it is the best thing i have ever tasted! Also I highly recommend MCT oil while in ketosis and trying to drop some fat. It goes straight to the liver and forces an immediate release of ketones acting like a thermogenic. I have been dropping the fat pretty quick since using it after a body builder friend of mine recommended it. Good luck with the training

butter (better than MCT, has SCT) , cream, avocado (most of the carbs are fiber)

Probably cuz they got FAT! Awesome, I burn more fat, I stay the same speed, I feel like crap, but I love eating cake!

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"That doesn't make any sense at all, you can be second, third, fourth... hell you can even be fifth." - Reese Bobby, Taladega nights

sholbk wrote:

Has anyone read...The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. Have you tried a ketogenic diet for training? What was your result?

KETOGENIC DIETS AND ENDURANCE SPORTS = FAIL


NO MATTER HOW "FAT ADAPTED" YOU THINK YOU CAN GET.... YOU'RE NOT GOING TO PERFORM AT YOUR POTENTIAL.


IF YOU JUST WANT TO LOOK GOOD, STRICT KETO/LOW CARB WORKS WELL WITH FAT PEOPLE. WITH PEOPLE ALREADY LEAN SOME SORT OF CYCLIC CARB CYCLING DIET WORKS BEST.

this based on self experimentation? method and results please.

Name 1 world class elite endurance Athlete that uses ketogenic/low carb diet?

None!

I joined my wife on the South Beach Diet - (low carb, lower fat, mild ketosis based on pee strips) since
New years. I agree with the general position that lifestyle and activity are the way to good health - but I also
managed to put on ~15 pounds over the last few years mainly a poor diet and figured a month or two of focus
on aggressivly dropping weight made sense - especially if sweetie would join me in the project. I am 50 years old.

I have been pleased with the results generally - I have gone from 185 and 42lbs of fat (on my Withings scale) to 172
and 33 pounds of fat in 6 weeks. Changing the way my body fuels itself (forcing it to burn fat) instead of feeding it
a dose of carbs every 60 minutes has greatly improved my appetite control.

What it has not been great for is hard training. After the first few days (when I think I actually had the flu) I have been
able to work out at a Z1/Z2 pace with runs and bike up to two hours. (If I went out with my buddies I would suck down a
HammerGel for a little more energy) - but anything much harder is painful. I have been working one tougher workout a
week into my schedule - a Spin class on Friday morning - and I generally feel like shit for day or two afterwards..like first
day of soccer practice with every muscle sore. Reading the posts on acid production explain that nicely...

My logic has been - I'll improve my performance more shedding 15 pounds than keeping more normal training schedule
and diet. I should be at my goal weight of 170 shortly and will go back to fueling exercise with carbs - hopefully with a bit
better discipline and fewer mid-week beers (the primary culprit I believe).

I'm aged up and slimmed down - I hope to be putting a hurt on some of the grey haired men in Lycra this season ;-)

Would I recommended this diet to others? Not necessarily... as many have pointed out it comes with some risks and
questionable science. I do want to point out that it has met my goals -and my wife's who plays tennis 3-4 times a week.
.

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" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978

There are more than you think but unfortunately the majority of athletes have sponsors and there are lots of shitty "food" companies like gatorade out there, so most do not come out and say what they really eat but to name a few Kobe Bryant, Lindsey Vonn (skier) Marty Fish (tennis player) Jokavich (mens #1 ranked tennis player, Ultraman world Champ (can't remember his full name but its Jonas)
It's not for everyone but becoming fat adapted has made a world of difference in the way I feel and look and although my Doc thinks I'm full of shit when I tell him I eat everyday he can't argue with the 65 pounds of weight loss and going from a type 2 diabetic on meds to perfect blood work and a complete reversal of my diabeties

you cant reverse diabetes......as a type 1, i know this disease well. It just doesnt come and go. It can be managed, but not erased. even as a type 2.
On a keto diet your bodies insulin response is obviously affected from a lack of carbs. But please dont think for a second it has gone. Im not trying to be a prick, its just i hear this all the time. If you re-introduce carbs, you will find it will rear its ugly head again. Staying in ketosis allows you to get off the meds like metform etc. This is obviously great, i know several who went this way and had great A1c's etc. But they, like you, still have diabetes. Its just managed.