Honor rolls are fine. We should just have a policy that says everyone is on it. I really don't see a problem here.

Then what would be the point? Why have grades? Forgot,that is under question also. Lets see...Are not many saying in games they should not keep score. Sure damaged me alot. I always lost.

You are the perfect example. We should have grades, but everyone should get an A.

You obviously have self esteem issues to this day from the damage inflicted upon you.

This is really not complicated.

I am not really sure if you are being sarcastic or really slamming me. Well OK. I guess no one should ever be promoted at work over another for working harder. Just all socialism uh.

Welcome to my world.

This is the stuff we deal with.

When we should be spending our time getting those who want to be there to excell (so they can save the rest of us someday), we spend most of our time trying to get Johnny to bring his book to class, sending Steve out in the hall because he won't shuddup, trying to get Susan's parents to make sure she does her homework at home, trying to get a hold of marie's parents who never seem to answer their phone so we can get a plan together to up her grade, trying to find out where James is, because he's not at school and his parents have no idea where he is, trying to get kids to serve detentions so they don't get school suspensions, etc.

This whole "equalization", "No Child Left behind", stuff is flawed from the beginning. I'm sorry not every kid can get an A. I'm sorry every kid cannot run a 4.8 40 and be the HS starting Running Back. I'm sorry not every kid was born 6'6 and can play center. I'm sorry folks. We're not equal. We never will be. No matter how hard we try.

At the point of fertilization, we are all different ... very different. We will never be equal in any regard. Not naturally, not nuturally. Politicans and Socialists can paint the picture of making everyone have the same chance, but that is an impossibility. It is a noble idea but one that is not realistic.

What's the difference (on average) between someone on the honor roll and someone who isn't? Effort. Simple as that. Yes ... it should be embarassing.

What we do in schools (and parenting) now is a disgrace. We contribute to the "sissyfication of America" (that's what I call it). We are raising a bunch of pussies. The moment their boss lays into them (i.e. dares to raise their voive in front of others) for screwing up they quit, rather than work harder to make it right. When a coach pulls them from a game for messing up, they quit because "the coach doesn't like me", rather than sit on the bench, work harder, and earn your position back. There are plenty of parents that once their kid is removed from the game (justifyably or not), the parents take the kid home before the game is even over.

The fancy schmansy terms are "enablers" vs. "empowers" ... i.e. whether you enable your kid to underachieve or whether you empower them to achieve. Nobody wants to be the bad guy. Nobody wants to say NO, and actually make a kid do what the parent says.

There are lots of issues schools deal with , whether some underachiever feels slighted by others being on the honor roll is likely the 1,239th most important thing schools need to deal with. But, guess what? We'll spend more money, research, time on this subject than trying to figure out real important issues. Welcome to the American Public School System.

[For those that question the Libertarian view and say without taxes all schools would go private .... bring it on. It would be nice to work in an efficient and effective environment, where spinning the wheels isn't the call of the day]

Equality ... the great myth.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Those that are receiving a grade less than a C should be placed on the dishonor role. And I am not being sarcastic.

Like you said most of your time is spent dealing with kids who forget to bring their books, disciplinary problems, and not taking responsibility for their actions. The bigger problem is that when you discipline them, give them a bad grade etc...the biggest complainer is their parent. You would think the parents would ask "How can we help Johnny to focus better" instead its "What do you have against my kid, your requirements are too hard..."

Sadly this attitude is being seen in more and more entering college students. Many incoming freshman are not prepared in many of the basic skills, study habits, and maturity required for even mediocre success.

The comment about getting rid of grades is ridiculous.

I can see why you do Tri's...The simplicity,and to clear your head. I am impressed at your dedication.........My sister retires after this year. After 20yrs she has had enough.

I was always taught that for "for a leader" that the most unfair way to treat people was to treat everyone equally.

hee, hee

;-)

My mom is sort of a "Who's Who In Education" type person (also a teacher, state curriculum designer, head of her union, etc). My sister teaches. My dad used to teach in juco. Teaching sorta runs in my family.

My dad now buys cheap real estate, fixes it up, and then either rents it or sells it for profit. He does all of his own work. If I thought he and I could work together on a daily basis without beating the snot out of each other, I would do that. The money is too good, and I love my dad. But, we are too alike to be side by side all day.

In 3-4 years I will likely move to the Southwest (Arizona). If I don't move, I'll join my dad in business. It's just too profitable and flexible working hours. He'll retire and let me run the show, sit back and rake in the dough. When he leaves us for a better place, I'll continue.

I love the kids. The age group I teach (14yo) are perfect. Sure, they're irresponsible, sure they want to do anything but homework. I knew that going in. I remember (unlike some other teachers) what it was like to be 14. But, what bothers me is the lack of responsibility in some of the parents (see the fast food thread for more). There are kids that could be "saved", but won't. It isn't b/c of the teachers.

What bothers me even worse is the consecutive string of hoops we must jump through thanks to the policies of those that have never stepped foot in a classroom, or those that couldn't handle it and became administrators. I wish I were joking. All of the paerwork we have to do for stupid shit drastically takes away from time to prepare lessons or even *gasp* spend time with family. Again, I wish I were joking.

I have a prof bio degree, not an education degree. I got certified by choice (i.e. 2 year education program). When interviewed principals ask me why so few science people go into teaching, I almost laugh as if they were asking sarcastically. They're not. The answer is simple, overworked, underpaid, and more red tape to step through. I don't buy the overworked part. I work plenty of 13-14 hour days, but I have 3 months of zero hour days. If I were paid $3/hr for each student as a baby-sitting fee, I'd make 67K. I make 32K trying to teach them all science. We are underpaid. In order to make some cash, teachers need to get Masters +32 .. of course th e classes are paid for by the teacher, and the time for the classes comes from "family time" (I'm not in school at the time for this reason).

I certainly do not love my job. I do it because [1] I'm good at it, [2] It's important, and [3] I love the kids, they're a blast ... except monday mornings 1st hour ... then they're zombies.

When I am done teaching, I'll miss the kids ... but little else. Our system needs major overhaul. Those without teaching experience (or those that haven't been in a classroom for the last 10 years) need to step down and turn over the helm to those that are more in touch with the needs of today's classrooms.

Whew, that felt good. Thank you.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

A - Men. I teach sixth grade and love it, but I get so weary from parents that I haven't seen all year, despite requests for conferences, etc,. These folks who can't make it to support their students education are the first to show up when Johnny is told he can't have pink hair...AAAargh

Honor Roll? Hell yes, If a kid is willing to do the work with some amount of self-respect and hard work then they should be applauded and paraded around.

If a kid feels slighted, or hurt that they are not on the rolls, then GET SOME WORK DONE!

Peace

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Wishin' wont. Work will.

funny we talk about this...
I have done most of my studies in France. The system there is very elitist re. studies.
First year 600 students, second 300 seats...pretty much musical chairs...so you are supposed to pass with a 50% average, but prof. will make sure that only 300 will get this average...you get the idea.

Besides, the scale is quite different. With 80% you get honors. We were/are usually graded over 20. when you get 16/20, this is a VERY good grade.

So, when I started teaching in the US, not aware of the grading inflation due to
1. it's an easy way for a school to show they are better than an other school
2. it does not hurt students feelings,
I had a lot of complaints from students, telling me they worked so hard and got only 75% which for me is a good grade...
I now start each semester with the "I use an other scale" speech...
I don't care really if they feel hurt. If they do "only" 80% of the work correctly, they get 80%...they feel it's bad, and I have to tell them, "hey, it's an A for me"
Now, they are getting used to it...

as for why we teach, I entirely agree with TT (although my job also involves research, writing grant proposals -also called begging for money at the NSF- advising masters and phd students...these are actually the biggest parts of the job)...
But I would never get a job in the industry where I would certainly make much more but wouldn't have the fun to teach...

I just love to see these students telling you how fun the class was, or coming to tell us "hey I had a job interview and talked about some research stuff we talked about in class, they thought it was great and I got hired" etc...
no money will buy this!

PS TT at 7.30pm they become zombies again...

Now you understand. Equality of result.

We should do the same in triathlons by the way. I am having some real issues with finishing in the back of the pack all the time. It bothers me so much I have to go out and train every day to work off the stress.

Great post TTT. Would you have a chat with your mother about fixing a lot of that public school garbage. Seems like she has some clout.

In Florida we have a state wide test for HS graduation. The teachers don't like having the test. They control the content, so of course they make this test into just about the worst test that could be imagined. Then they complain about how awful and useless the test is as part of the effort to get rid of it.

That test is so pathetic, no one should be allowed into HS if they can't pass it, never mind be allowed to graduate.

I teach highschool mathematics in Ontario, Canada and I've seen too many stupid initiatives in education the past dozen years or so. Currently, the thinking in our school system is that you cannot penalize children for NOT handing in assigned work. The rationale is that if little John doesn't do the assignment then I can't evaluate his ability to do the assignment since I have not seen it. Therefore we get to fill out a learning skills evaluation indicating that Johnny needs to submit more work and only base his mark on what he hands in. STUPID .... you bet! How long do you think it took the kids to figure that one out. My philosophy is somewhat different. If Johnny doesn't hand it in, then I figure he doesn't know how to do any of the work and gets a zero even though it may hurt his feelings.

We also have a number of testing years include a literacy test that all students must pass in order to graduate. The problem is that no one knows the exact criteria any of them are graded on and they were implemented more as a political move than a tool to improve anything.

I give kids zeroes.

Kids that fail do so because they have too mnay zeroes.

At the beginning of the year I explain that a zero takes 4 A grades to bring your total grade to an F. So, turning in something is better than turning in nothing.

I tell them if you don't do anything at your job you lose it ... and then tell everyone you got fired b/c your boss didn't like you or because everyone was jealous of you.

I have some classes where I do not allow coursework out of class. If I did, 3/4 of the class would flunk due to zeroes resulting from incomplete work. These are the kids that will complain that the rich don't pay enough taxes, and that the rich should pay for everything they want, but cannot afford. *wink*

It's funny that kids that come from rich families are usually the most organized, disciplined, consistent, hard-working students. Maybe someone will spend 1.6 million dollars to do research and see if there is a correlation between hard work and earning money.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

In my low level biology courses, i dont even issue text books as they never get brought to class, and 1 out of 3 are never seen again. cant give homework either as 3 in 4 wont do it and couldnt care less about the consequences. admin told us not to give zeros as it ruins self image from the get go. so, start everyonne feeling good, and them tighten the clamp later. 1 in 5 students misses more than 15 days, and im still responsible for their end of course test grade. great.

I hav eno idea how a kid that misses 15 days in a semester is allowed back into class. I deal with the same stuff. For my lower level Bio class, I photocopy chapters and they keep them in an in-class folder.

What is happening to our society?

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I teach 8th grade science and deal with the apathy of kids who don't think it counts so they will just go on to 9th grade. I record what a student hands in; if they work at it, they receive the corresponding score; if they hand nothing in they get that corresponding score which just happens to be a zero. I do allow (pretty much) unlimited correctives and provide weekly progress reports. My theory is that if they see the poor grades the may do something about it and any work completed will (hopefully) result in some learning taking place. I also let students know right at the start of the year that because of correctives, the only way to "fail" is to miss assignments and/or not do correctives. Takes at least a marking period to sink in for some but it usually does.

As for the "rich" parents kids - there may be some correlation between income and how the kids do, but what I find is that parents who care i.e. talk to their kids (not at them), make them show what they are doing (parental interest) and communicate with school as needed, those students do well. ESEA (I refuse to call it No Child Left Behind!) slams schools and to a lesser extent students, but does squat about parents. When a law holds some parental accountability with supports first and then consequences we may see some change. Right now it is easy to blame the public schools (who may share some culpability due to complacent attitudes), but it is those parents that are the key and no elected official is willing to take on that one (an put some teeth in it) because they voters would have their nether regions.

Sometimes a teacher makes an impression on a kid that we never see, but on rare occasions you hear about it (usually after the fact). Remember, for each one we hear about there are more that "got it" but just never told anyone.

Letter

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Larry

Don't be afraid to ride too long or too hard. That's what cell phones are for. Rich Strauss

Hurting underacheiver's feelings, I say screw 'em, they dont perform well, they dont get the honors. But, as an overacheiver in school most of my life, i see this from the other side, I know a lot of kids (very smart) who would hate for this to be paraded around in front of the other kids. This makes a lot of kids who usually arent the most social people in the world (im going by stereotypes here, I was super-popular), feel even more set apart from the crowd. Most of you talked from the point of view of parents, who want your children's name shouted from the rooftops in celebration, but maybe your kids just wants to get his honors quietly so he can go back to hanging out with everyone else and not feel like some outsider. Thus, on the privacy issue, i dont think its right for schools to reveal grades without the permission of the students, whether they are good or not. Let the students decide whether they want the teachers to wave their names in front of the dumb kids chanting, "Look who's WAY smarter than you!"

Thus, on the privacy issue, i dont think its right for schools to reveal grades without the permission of the students, whether they are good or not.

That's a good point. I don't if anyone ever considered that. I guess everyone just assumes that students with good grades WANT to be recognized. I guess no one ever thought to actually, "ask them". I could see the case where someone might say "get over it, smarty". But, if you're getting harassed or an ass-kickin' because you're "smart" .. then I can understand the privacy. I know if a school reveals an athletically inelgible student's grades ... their job is lost. My wife still mentions she was the validictorian of her class in 4th grade(Houston, TX). 4th grade?

I was always taught, "Be nice to nerds. You'll be asking one to hire you someday."

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I believe that due to grade inflation one professor at Harvard gives his students two grades. An 'A' for the records and the grade they actually earned.

In times of trouble, I find it soothing to look to the great philosophers of our times, The Simpsons.

From Tappa, tappa, tappa:

Lisa: But my parents are counting on seeing me dance! And I've worked ever so hard.

Vicki: I'm sorry, Lisa, but giving everyone an equal part when they're clearly not equal is called what, again, class?

Class: Communism!

Vicki: That's right. And I didn't tap all those Morse code messages to the Allies 'til my shoes filled with blood to just roll out the welcome mat for the Reds.

And from Homer himself: "In theory, Communism works. In theory."

Interesting thread.

As it pertains to the education system, In theory the all-inclusive-make-everyone-happy system makes sense. Unfortunately, it does kids a massive disservice, as the real world out side the school system is very Darwinian - the competition for good( or even not so good) jobs is extraordinarily competitive and it is very often survival of the fittest and/or best prepared. In fact, the competition for just about everything is very competitive - think about what it's like to get a good deal on a mortage or rent an apartment. You better have everythimng lined up and organized and be ready to make the pitch when you need to. I find it remarkable, that the school system does so little for kids in terms of preparing them for the real world. It's great to have the basic math, reading and other skills, but what about advanced communication, relationship building, networking and other skills that really ARE the ones needed to stay near the front of the pack!

Ironically, the huge numbers of people getting into marathon running and triathlons are perhaps being driven there by the huge amount of competition in the rest of their lives. These days it does not seem to matter what time you you did the marathon or triathlon in. It's that you did it. You took part. You had fun. You achieved something on your own terms, not someone elses. Nothing wrong with that at all.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog