Says nothing about EPO use.

Agreed. Should have been pinkish...

thank you for providing these links. i thought i had remembered reading the same but was too lazy to find the links. :)

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

There was a really interesting discussion on Universal during the Vuelta coverage yesterday. The commentator said that Frank Schleck had been "struggling since his return to competition and was not able to reach his former abilities".

I thought "Really? Frank was doped to the gills in his glory days and now maybe he is racing cleaner." Maybe Frank wants to see what he can do "less doped" (maybe even clean...who knows).

I actually found it fun watching a human Frank Schleck winning that insane stage at the Vuelta.

I don't know, maybe these guys are less evil than we assume. Maybe they get caught up as young men chasing their chilldhoodd protour dreams. It would be no different than a high school football superstar getting recruited for Div 1 football and being subtly told by coaches and trainers that the only way he is making the starting line up is get on the program, improve his squat 20 percent, improve his bench press, beef up 40 lbs and shave O.5 seconds off his 40 yard dash. Serious question...how many college kids are not going to get on the plan. Next step NFL or next step bench warmer in Arena football.

If I look at what it would take Antonio Colom to win the Mortirolo in the Giro 2008 vs. Have the top bike split at the Mallorca 70.3 or the 70.3 World's the delta would be in line with being relatively clean now.

But coming back to Rapp's point, if WTC, or Challeng or the organizers of Gerardmer won't close their races to these guys, then shaming them would only go so far (and they may truly regret their past). Better maybe to put pressure on race organizers not the former dopers directly.

On Jonnyo's point about the effects lasting a long time, in Tyler's book he was talking about the strength not being in the legs, but in the blood. When the blood values return to normal natural ranges, it seems that the performances of these guys becomes human again. A few examples I can think of include David Miller, Frank Schleck, Nina Kraft and even a "more human" Contador because, I suppose you could say the "human version" of these athletes is a higher level than what they would have been.

i understood that and did not make my post very clear. thanks for clarifying.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

With all your knowledge of the sport, if you think a cyclist, during the 2000s only took EPO, and not testosterone, among other PEDs than I have a bridge to sell you. That's giving you the benefit of the doubt that EPO doesn't give long term benefits, which I feel is probably not the case.

Things like the Stanford prison experiment or the Milgram experiment suggest that we are more susceptible to situational behavior than most people think. I suspect that many of us would not like what we would find out about ourselves if put in the positions of the typical pro cyclists who doped (or the football scenario you outlined). Note that doesn't mean I excuse their behavior and in fact based on that I have even more respect for those who were in similar situations and didn't dope. That takes some impressive conviction, character and courage. It does however mean that not every doper is fundamentally lacking in character when they are in other situations.

You must not have done well in your science classes when you were in school, huh?.... You're comparing apples and oranges... First, the two articles you linked are for anabolic steroids.. and both articles say anabolic steroids could have a lasting effect... the keyword is "could" which is far from does have a lasting effect. That does not sound very convincing...

Also, Guerra was banned for EPO which is far from anabolic steriods lol.. UNless Guerra was trying to be a body builder on the side, that's like saying the recent study that vitamin C is bad for training means you should stop drinking OJ for training... and stop drinking chocolate milk, Gatorade or any other fluids just because all fluids are a like?... yes all doping is alike too?

Finally, I can find an article for anything.. EPO blood doping useless for elite athletes it says in this article, I guess must be true? http://www.mensfitness.com/...s-for-elite-athletes So according to that article, current science says Guerra had no performance enhancements other than the mental edge believing he had an enhancement?

I have been given varied info about EPO. Some say they go right back to an undoped level after the red blood cells die off. One rider claims he was worse afterward, which I find hard to believe. Others say there is a longtime or permanent benefit, but they described it as a neuromuscular benefit or efficiency benefit. Overall I doubt any of them can legitimately discern the possible longtime gains of EPO and transfusions from the gains of riding 30K a year for a decade plus.

you need to understand that EPO does also help in increasing training load. Over a few years, training load is the most important factor to performance. To squeeze more work in over a few years as long lasting effect. Now, if he got caught for the expensive EPO....he most likely had a few other ingrediant to help him during his cycling career. Testimony for other athlete in the same sport at the same time tell us the story of how the game was play.

But as i said, until you race professionally, putting it all on the line in a honest way and play by the rule, it might be hard to understand why clean triathlete take such strong stand against past doper. Cycling welcome them, and the sport as turn into a circus. In triathlon, your in for a rough go if you got caught. the peer pressure is one of the most effective way to push a athlete away.

The rules are the rules, they are allow to race back, but it dosnt mean we need to welcome them back. Race as a professional is a privilege and as huge influence on kids and up and comer..... i dont beleive in second chance for this privilege. I think Challenge roth is setting a great exemple in now allowing past doper in the pro field

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

You F with my family....shit gets real! Gambles has a "hall pass" from me!

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

 

[/quote]Apparently whoever wrote that sign needs to get a partial refund on his football scholarship/education...
"If your lucky enough..." and "you wont make enough..."
How about "if YOU'RE lucky enough..." and "you WON'T make enough..."
As a teacher for the past 23 years, seeing stuff like this is so frustrating.
And I teach science! If I taught English, I likely would have quit long ago!
Ugh.

Cheers,
John

Yes, Gamble's site has issues. Hit refresh a few times fixes it sometimes.

The EU has restraint of trade laws that make it tricky.

My guess is that officially the Pro entry fee for Roth is, say $10000, but if you get an invite you get it comp'd. So any ex doper pro could race if they wanted, but they'd need to pay their way.

I'm pretty sure that as a WADA signatory they can't disallow someone who has served their ban, without withdrawing from WADA first - or being expelled afterwards.

Joe Gambles sounds like a champ... Great race by him and well done.

I'm pretty certain that IF that is the case and a doper could demonstrate that it was only ex-dopers that were asked to pay that they can make the case that they are discriminated against

Here is our picture gallery from the race, and they do a great job with this annual triathlon extravaganza.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...rdmer_pics_5334.html

I concur that the story as told by Gambles seems to be missing the part where he tells us what provoked Guerra into behaving the way he did - not that that excuses how he behaved, but it does mitigate it.

Again though, this is another case of "Pros" not behaving in a professional manner.

Possibly - things will get trickier (for everyone) if/when an ex doper starts doing well in the sport. At the moment, the ex dopers are only winning/doing well at 2nd/3rd/4th tier races where there are no 1st tier pros, so the likes of Roth have the cover (if they need it) that they only invite athletes of a certain caliber. If one starts winning regional championships and other "big" races then it may prompt a change in stance from WTC/Challenge. But again, they will be limited by trade laws and WADA codes, etc.

this...

better not be close to me ever again cause shit will get real...

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

The media should report the news. The media should not skew the news that is presented to readers based on the writers opinions. Both the article on the race as well as the picture gallery pretend as if the male winner did not exist. If you want to write an op-ed on your opinion on ex-dopers in triathlon, then do it. But, don't cleanse the reporting of the race through a filter that excludes the winner because you (and many others, myself included) don't like the fact that an ex-doper is the winner.

The name "Guerra" is mentioned 8 times, and there's a two-paragraph blow-by-blow description of the battle between him and Gambles. That's hardly pretending he "did not exist."

But even then, I disagree in your assertion that Herbert (and other authors) must take an apparently "neutral" stance on doping. This is a triathlon results article, not AP coverage of immigration in Europe.

The 100m is a perfect example of what we all hope triathlon doesn't become.