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Re: January Swim Thread [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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Gonefishin5555 wrote:
i would try to focus on a quicker recovery, so accelerate the arm movement when its above the water. time your kick correctly to kick your left foot at the moment your right arm is leaving the water and starting the recovery. Just my experience that the underwater arm will naturally accelerate to match the speed of the the recovery arm. just want to give you guys something try I'm not a coach. edit if that doesnt work do more backstroke kicking instead of kicking on your stomach

Thanks for this post. Sorry for not posting on this thread all week. I was largely off ST this week due to business bandwidth but got to the pool everyday. I tried what you said, and rather than pulling harder I tried to swing my recovery arm over faster and I also kind of tried to get it to swing "wider" (example swing right arm a bit wider to drive down right shoulder down before the catch) and swivel other shoulder up....not sure if I am explaining this well, but trying to swim "less flat" and with more shoulder rotation.
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Re: January Swim Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Caught a bit of a cold just after New Years. Symptoms weren't that bad, but I've missed a couple swims since the 1st, and backed off the intensity on several more. Just started to feel close full strength again near the end of this week. After a couple back-to-back days of distance pace workouts, today's main set was 100 free race pace sprints.




SCY
200 pull, 200 kick


8x25 freestyle drill progression

30x25 on :40, target <:14.00

450 EZ choice recovery

16x25 fly on :40, target <:16.50

200 EZ choice recovery

400 pull TT (5:01.54)

200 EZ cool down


3000Y total





I have a meet next Sunday. I'll be swimming the 50, 100, and 1650 free, and possibly the fly leg of a 200 Medley Relay. I haven't done much free sprint work lately, thus the emphasis today. I felt good about being able to consistently bang out sub 14s 25's; actually getting faster as the set went on until about 22, when I started to fade from the 13.6-13.7's range back up to the 13.8-13.9's.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: January Swim Thread [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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Gonefishin5555 wrote:
i would try to focus on a quicker recovery, so accelerate the arm movement when its above the water. time your kick correctly to kick your left foot at the moment your right arm is leaving the water and starting the recovery. Just my experience that the underwater arm will naturally accelerate to match the speed of the the recovery arm. just want to give you guys something try I'm not a coach. edit if that doesnt work do more backstroke kicking instead of kicking on your stomach

OK the quicker recovery seems to be working for backstroke. Basically as soon as my arm enters and catches, I focus on driving the recovery arm around as fast as I can, rather than pulling harder with the arm that just did the catch. The pull almost happens as a reaction to the recovery arm going back faster. So this reminded me a bit about what I find works well in open water swim starts...rather than worrying about pulling hard before my arms and lats are really warmed up, I drive my recovery arm over quickly working from my hip and shoulders first and as soon as my recovery hand gets past my shoulder, the pull happens and seems to be reasonably powerful without having to pull as hard.

This is kind of like a runner driving the recovery knee forward hard, to create a hard push off with the push off leg. We would also do the the same skate skiing on steep uphills. Drive recovery knee/leg forward and move body over to the recovery leg instead of getting bogged down trying to push the entire body with push off leg...same deal speed skating...basically it's a about moving all the weight of the recovery side of your body with all of those heavy body parts actively recovering, rather than move the entire body with one limb....seems like the same principle would work to some degree here.
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Re: January Swim Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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36 x 150y today as:

6x150 @ 2:10
1:00 break
12x150 @ 2:05
1:00 break
6x150 @ 2:10, snorkel
1:00 break
2x150 @ 2:05, snorkel, buoy, paddles
2x150 @ 2:05, buoy, paddles
2x150 @ 2:05, paddles
2x150 @ 2:10, 50 back, 100 free
4x150 @ 2:10, 50 kick, 100 free

5400 mostly aerobic yards
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Re: January Swim Thread [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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140triguy wrote:
36 x 150y today as:

6x150 @ 2:10
1:00 break
12x150 @ 2:05
1:00 break
6x150 @ 2:10, snorkel
1:00 break
2x150 @ 2:05, snorkel, buoy, paddles
2x150 @ 2:05, buoy, paddles
2x150 @ 2:05, paddles
2x150 @ 2:10, 50 back, 100 free
4x150 @ 2:10, 50 kick, 100 free

5400 mostly aerobic yards

Hey guys, someone explain to me the reason for buoy and paddles. I thought the only reason for paddles is more resistance, but then the buoy reduces resistance so you're just back to the same scenario as no buoy no paddles (well, aside from riding higher in the water and going faster). But if you want to catch more and move faster, would it not be better to do paddles and fins and use the core?

Help me because I am learning and firstly I don't see the real point of the buoy as it disengages the core....or am I missing something special about the buoy? To me the buoy almost feels like riding a bike all decked out with your race wheels, latex tubes, and skinsuit on a training ride to reduce drag. What's the buoy doing other than reducing drag? Or do you guys feel that after swimming with it with a high body position when you go back too swimming without it you swim higher in the water?
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Re: January Swim Thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I use a buoy to isolate my pull and allow myself to focus higher intensity on the pull, since I'm not using the legs and getting gassed by kicking. Also, helps me break up my swims, when I'm shooting for a particular distance goal. Lifelong swimmers who also do open-water races in wetsuit-legal courses, use a buoy so they can get the alignment they'd get from a wetsuit without burning up in a pool. Wetsuits benefit non-swimmers and those who haven't been lifelong swimmers more. You probably see a much greater focus on buoy (and neoprene shorts) among groups of triathletes and open-water swimmers who have the majority of their races in cold water.
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Re: January Swim Thread [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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140triguy wrote:
I use a buoy to isolate my pull and allow myself to focus higher intensity on the pull, since I'm not using the legs and getting gassed by kicking. Also, helps me break up my swims, when I'm shooting for a particular distance goal. Lifelong swimmers who also do open-water races in wetsuit-legal courses, use a buoy so they can get the alignment they'd get from a wetsuit without burning up in a pool. Wetsuits benefit non-swimmers and those who haven't been lifelong swimmers more. You probably see a much greater focus on buoy (and neoprene shorts) among groups of triathletes and open-water swimmers who have the majority of their races in cold water.

I am not buying the usage of pull buoy from non lifelong swimmers and triathletes....if any group needs to lose the pull buoy it is them. I do buy what you are saying about using the pull buoy to remove oxygen load from the core and legs to allow for all the O2 to go to upper body so you can pull harder. That one kind of makes sense, but since the body position is so distorted, the pull can't be the same anyway, so that one also seems like a lose argument, but I kind of buy it. I would have thought you would get a better result on that angle with a very light two beat kick with fins on and massive paddles.
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Re: January Swim Thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Sure, triathletes NEED to lose the buoy in practice and get more of a kick, but as long as they're going to wear a wetsuit in their races, they're going to train for that body position and kick requirement. Look on these message boards: there's always someone asking if XY race is going to be wetsuit legal, because the air temp is rising. If the course is too warm, wetsuits are prohibited (for podiums and KQ slots, as well as other awards). People don't ask because they are worried the water is going to be too cold, they ask because they want the benefit of a wetsuit. Wetsuits benefit weak swimmers much more than they benefit strong swimmers.
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Re: January Swim Thread [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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Taking a cue from you guys, I will add some pull buoy today with large paddles. I started asking on another thread about this topic, and as you are strong swimmer, you can educate me on what I need to do, but I find I end up swimming flat with buoy with less hip rotation. What do you do to keep the natural hip rotation,or do you just not worry about it?
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Re: January Swim Thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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The distance king at my pool uses paddles and PB a lot. It seems like at least 1/3 to 1/2 his workout. I think of it as resistance training and building arm endurance mostly.

Went 2500 Sat, then I decided to do bike ride on my new to me TT bike. First time ever clipping in on the road at the age of 51. You guys can guess what happened the first time I came to a complete stop...Picked myself back up went about 14 miles total and this aero thing really makes you fast so I liked it.

Sunday 2600
6x150 @ 230
8x 50 kick evens fast @1:15
50Ez
3x200 pull on 3:10 held 2:40s
50ez
8 x 50 IM order 25 stroke fast/ 25 free ez @1:00
50ez
100IM hard. 1:20 with a botched back/breast turn
50 ez
Did some treadmill and circuit wts after
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Re: January Swim Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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2500 SCY

200 pull, 200 kick
8x25 free drills on :45
4x50 on 1:15 (pace dial-in)
Test Set of 10x100 on 1:25 for best average (1:12.55)
300 EZ choice recovery
Test Set of 10x25 on :30 for best average (:14.19)
150 EZ cooldown

Meet in 5 days. Full distance workout tomorrow, then a 3 day mini-taper. Goal is three National Qualifying Times (1650,50. and 100 free). I will really focus on the 1650 pacing in the remaining few days. I'm having a hard time not going out a bit too fast.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: January Swim Thread [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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I caught a cold, too. Along with stressed something in my lower back and did something to my foot/ankle on my last run. I never knew my sinuses could produce this much snot! And, everything sounds as if I have a motorcycle helmet on, plus my ears are ringing like mad - it's become quite hard to hear people talking. So, I'm taking some time off of... EVERYTHING!

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: January Swim Thread [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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I'm right there with you Steve, seemed like just a cold, then morphed into this chest thing, and now I'm just tired and coughing. It will be over a week off for me, maybe more. But each afternoon I do feel better thinking just one more sleep and I will be good to go, and then I wake up the next morning worse again..

Is this the flu that everyone is talking about but looks like a bad cold? Perhaps it is and my flu shot is just dampening down the symptoms. Guess it doesn't matter really, I'll know when I'm better and ready, just a shame as I had such a good streak going..)-;
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Re: January Swim Thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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1/17: 5 mi easy run, 45:25, 1025 yd swim

5 x 100 on 1:30
50 kick
3 x 100 on 1:30
150 on 2:10
25 kick c/d

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: January Swim Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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I have a cold :( 7.2 mi easy 66:30, 875 yd swim

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: January Swim Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Friday off due to illness. Scored a 100 on the thermometer, woo hoo.
Saturday 7 mi easy run + 9.3 mi bike
Sunday 31 mi bike
today 7 mi easy run + 1525 yd swim

500
50 kick
100, 150, 200, 150, 100 w/ 50 kick after each
25 kick c/d

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: January Swim Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Swam a meet Sunday. Went 20:53 in the 1650y free. That was 20 seconds slower than my goal, but 24 seconds faster than my previous best. Been doing lots of long sets (+/- 25 reps) of steady-pace 100's on 15-20 seconds rest, hoping my pace there would translate to a sustainable race pace for the 1650. That turned out to be a little optimistic. I kinda suspected all along that was probably a better proxy for 1000 free race pace, and that was born out in the race. Gonna have to make some training plan adjustments going forward; my next shot at the 1650 is in 6 weeks.

I also swam the 50 free, 100 free, and the fly leg of a 200 IM Relay. I was a little off in the 50 free (26.33), and a lot off in the 100 (58.77) and the 50 fly relay split (29.92). I had about an hour and a half rest between the 1650 and the 50 free, but only 12-15 minutes between events after that. I have another meet in a couple weeks where I'll swim the 100 and 50 free fresh. Hoping to secure National Qualifying Time's in both (57.10 & 25.98).

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: January Swim Thread [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Nice work!

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: January Swim Thread [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Well, my abstinence from training only lasted a day. I had a 11 mile trail race on Saturday I wasn't going to miss. So, Dayquil pills, Epsom Salt dips for my foot and a TENS unit on my back, I continued to train. Race turned out pretty good. I didn't win, always losing to Tim Hughes, so second place. But, I've raced it three years now, and I PRd this one. I did this even while running into a low hanging branch that gashed my head open a bit and knocked me on my ass. Probably as hard a hit as Gronkowski took! (Okay, maybe not, but I had no helmet.)
Now, my nose has quit its overproduction, my ankle and back still hurt a bit and my ears are not exactly clogged up, but still ringing quite loud (I fear it may be permanent.) I have the third race this coming Saturday, a 21k race with two nasty climbs, the first, 1 mile into the race up Main Divide and the second, the switchbacks of Horsethief Trail - a good mile long and at times, some 40% grade.

Anyway, I swam yesterday in the ocean almost 3000 yards and 57 degree water. I then ran later that afternoon (between football games) 4.68 miles. I pool swam this AM, 2500 yards and just did my lunchtime run of 4 miles in 32 minutes.

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: January Swim Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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7.1 mi easy 66:30, 625 yd swim

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: January Swim Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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2400 Yards, working on back-half 100 free pace

200 pull, 200 kick
8x25 drill
4x50 build

25's on :30, target < :14.25
1st fail @ 17
2nd fail @ 21
set complete (30 reps)

350 EZ Choice recovery

12 x 25 fly on :35, target < :17:25

200 EZ Choice cool down

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: January Swim Thread [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't been posting lately, bad me!

2900 SCM this morning as

300 wu
6x50 descend 1-3, 4-6 (1-3 fr, 4-6 br)
5 x (
100 T pace
50 br strong
50 br pull
100 descend by 25
50 br kick
50 ez)
300 cd
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Re: January Swim Thread [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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2 mi run 18:29 , 825 yd swim. Woke up late :-)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: January Swim Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Did a "fun" ladder in the pool this AM. Wasn't feeling like another venture into 56 degree ocean water, so opted for pool time.
1000, 800, 600, 400, 300, 200, 100 plus 100 cool down - 3500 sc yardages in 48 minutes - 1:22/100 pace average. Rest between varied from 30 sec to about a minute. 200 was 2:38 & 100 was a 1:11

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: January Swim Thread [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
Swam a meet Sunday. Went 20:53 in the 1650y free. That was 20 seconds slower than my goal, but 24 seconds faster than my previous best. Been doing lots of long sets (+/- 25 reps) of steady-pace 100's on 15-20 seconds rest, hoping my pace there would translate to a sustainable race pace for the 1650. That turned out to be a little optimistic.

Depending on how much rest, that *could* be a reasonable proxy. Did you start on pace and die, or hold an even pace that was a second per hundred slower?
I think some longer intervals are also really useful, even if they wind up being slower than mile pace. A favorite set of mine is 10x300. This complements rather than replacing the 100s.
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