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Is this overtraining? Any tips?
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Hey guys!

I'm sure there is a lot of knowledge around here for this issue and sorry for being whiny but it's frustrating to say the least as you'll see.

I try to keep myself brief but there's a lot:
* Was in the middle of a TrainerRoad build and it was taxing to say the least but I still completed most workouts. But I knew it couldn't go on forever anymore. ~11 hours a week, lots of intensity (too much for me tbh)
* Suddenly noticed that I lost around 2kg though right before it spiraled downwards, even though I didn't feel bad at this point
* It all started 5 weeks ago or so with sudden, extreme and unusual DOMS after a strength session which lasted for 5 days or so
* I felt off from this point on. Higher heart rate, higher exhaustion, drop in performance
* Got sick (I guess) with headache, tiredness, minor elevated body temperature, increased resting hr and a minor sore throat (only first day though). No runny nose though or cough for example. Lot of people at work were sick at this point
* Doctor said it's a virus. It's a GP who gives you 1 min to explain your symptoms. Guess he hasn't even heard of overtraining or anything
* I kept it cool, thought it's a virus I'll be fine in a week
* Didn't properly recover even though I stayed at home from work for 8 days or so.
* Tried to do some easy cycling. Power still was totally down, heart rate and exhaustion up
* Tried to give it a few days of rest multiple times only to see the same behavior. High hr and exhaustion
* Up & down followed. Felt good for a few days, then headache and fatigue started. From then on nearly every day in the afternoon I started getting a headache at work. Nearly no sports at all at this point.
* Sport left me completely destroyed the following day, doesn't seem to make a difference how easy I go (for example 1hr bike with 118 avg hr and still waking up wasted)
* I was in great shape, now everything goes to s*** and and I started to get increasingly frustrated
* Frustration peaked few days ago when I woke up in the middle of the night and had my first ever panic attack (it's horrible and I wouldn't have believed it before experiencing one. Also I'm actually not the "type" for this)
* I can do some minor sport when I calm myself down or do it with friends it seems where I don't over-analyze my performance as closely and then I also felt more recovered the next day. I still don't perform normal at all but my friends are nowhere near my usual level so it doesn't play a role in this case
* Fatigue in general. Muscles feel weak, kind of always a little sore, especially the thighs. Before the panic attack a few days ago I slept fine I guess, even though I mostly woke up feeling tired
* Loss (or at least decreased) appetite
* Work feels way more stressful as usual even though there's objectively no reason

The only thing I don't really have is a lack of motivation for the sport (or it's actually a compulsive need because of being afraid to loose fitness). But I can't think of anything better to do than riding into the sunset after a long ride.

Tests I already had:
* Blood test two weeks ago (and ~2 1/2 weeks after being sick). No indication of inflammation or white blood cells being off. Testosterone perfectly in the middle of the range. Iron, ferritin, Vitamin D normal.
* ECG and ultrasound of the heart normal

Headache and mood definitely are way better when I distract myself with friends and stuff. What would really make me happy though is being back in the game. Already have to move up (or cancel, let's see) a race at the end of May.

I'd so love any insights from you if you think that this is overtraining. Unfortunately there are no GPs around here that seem to specialize in this. Also any tips for getting better? Risk easy training or rather complete rest?
Also I've made an appointment for a psychotherapist.


I'd really appreciate any help, thanks!
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [cmart] [ In reply to ]
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It looks like you had everything checked out but you might be missing one. I had issues with my muscles, quads in particular. OMG so sore & dysfunctional all the time, I thought I had some weird disease. I've had regular PT and have been living on the foam roller, improving function and getting by. But still this annoying burning pain all the time. People say rest - didn't help, & it got worse getting back at it.

Below the gym, sipping a smoothie in a good supplements/health store and I explained this to store staff. No further questions, they set me up with a small tub of Glutamine (not costly too). And I have to say it's working, and well for me. After I bought it, I checked out some youtube videos and my scenario matches up with the content.

For the (over) training junkies that we are, you'd think we'd talking about this more.

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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It's not just the quads. It's mainly the headaches, tiredness and therefore the performance drops. On bad days, that means mainly when sleep was bad, I feel lethargic and headache sets in at some point.

Only good thing.. I know now what type of training distribution is not for me.. I mean, if this is overtraining I'm going through. And if it is, I learned that the tipping point comes in damn fast!
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [cmart] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like overtraining to me, esp given that you did TR build. I just posted a LONG one about how I feel that the TR Triathlon Build/race plans are just too hard to be used for the bulk of triathletes - the TR Oly build crushed me, and my run took a big hit.

Good that you got checked out by a doc as well, that makes weird health stuff less likely. You should bounce back to form after some weeks of dramatically reduced training in your case since the TR Build length is only about 6-8 wks so you're not digging out of hole many months deep.

I didn't overtrain in my build, but I was dangerously close and had to sacrifice too much of my typical run training for the small gains on the bike in the process.
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Sounds like overtraining to me, esp given that you did TR build. I just posted a LONG one about how I feel that the TR Triathlon Build/race plans are just too hard to be used for the bulk of triathletes - the TR Oly build crushed me, and my run took a big hit.

Good that you got checked out by a doc as well, that makes weird health stuff less likely. You should bounce back to form after some weeks of dramatically reduced training in your case since the TR Build length is only about 6-8 wks so you're not digging out of hole many months deep.

I didn't overtrain in my build, but I was dangerously close and had to sacrifice too much of my typical run training for the small gains on the bike in the process.

Yes, for me it sounds pretty definitive. Anyway, I'd love to have opinions on it since there doesn't seem to be any chance of a doctor saying a 100% "yep, that's overtraining" since there doesn't seem to exist a bulletproof way of diagnosing it.
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [cmart] [ In reply to ]
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cmart wrote:
It's not just the quads. It's mainly the headaches, tiredness and therefore the performance drops. On bad days, that means mainly when sleep was bad, I feel lethargic and headache sets in at some point.


Only good thing.. I know now what type of training distribution is not for me.. I mean, if this is overtraining I'm going through. And if it is, I learned that the tipping point comes in damn fast!


Glutamine depletion almost mimics sensation of viruses and they are related - eg the substance is used in the body for the immune system transport. Here's the video I checked out to educate myself a bit. Certainly most people are not in a glutamine-deficient predicament, but rang true with my situation.

Basically if you back-back intense activity over long term, your body goes into a depleted state.



Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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I find that interresting. Maybe ill buy a pot and see if that helps. As i have ups and downs also.

Your truley
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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SharkFM wrote:
cmart wrote:
It's not just the quads. It's mainly the headaches, tiredness and therefore the performance drops. On bad days, that means mainly when sleep was bad, I feel lethargic and headache sets in at some point.


Only good thing.. I know now what type of training distribution is not for me.. I mean, if this is overtraining I'm going through. And if it is, I learned that the tipping point comes in damn fast!


Glutamine depletion almost mimics sensation of viruses and they are related - eg the substance is used in the body for the immune system transport. Here's the video I checked out to educate myself a bit. Certainly most people are not in a glutamine-deficient predicament, but rang true with my situation.

Basically if you back-back intense activity over long term, your body goes into a depleted state.

Well, tbh, that would be the first time that supplements do anything for me :/ My diet is not too bad so I should get all the nutrients I need from proper food. But who knows...
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [cmart] [ In reply to ]
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ATL/CTL over 1.5??

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Sounds like overtraining to me, esp given that you did TR build. I just posted a LONG one about how I feel that the TR Triathlon Build/race plans are just too hard to be used for the bulk of triathletes - the TR Oly build crushed me, and my run took a big hit.

Good that you got checked out by a doc as well, that makes weird health stuff less likely. You should bounce back to form after some weeks of dramatically reduced training in your case since the TR Build length is only about 6-8 wks so you're not digging out of hole many months deep.

I didn't overtrain in my build, but I was dangerously close and had to sacrifice too much of my typical run training for the small gains on the bike in the process.

I had a similar experience when I followed the TR HIM plan. Before that I had just used TR and just use their workouts for an indoor session(s) during the week and rides outdoors on the weekend. But then I had picked up the TR HIM plan and followed that including mostly following the run and swim workouts with some tweaks. But near the end, I want to say a month out give or take a week or two, the plan just buried me. I had 2-3 consecutive workouts that I couldn't come close to finishing. I wouldn't make it halfway through and have to stop. I never recovered to truly be ready for my race and ended up having a terrible race as I was just worn out.

That was also when I decided that I needed a coach if I was to tackled doing full IM. Working with a coach has been an eye opener for me. Not only seeing how my coach put my plan together but how much attention my coach pays to recovery, injury prevention, and overtraining. Granted, I'm not asking to be FOP but just look for ongoing improvement so things might be different if I was shooting for Kona down the road. Of course, the more experience I get the better understanding I have of what recovery should feel like and when to dial it back a bit. But I certainly don't have that totally figured out yet.
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, a coach would definitely be worth a try. I actually already decided on one as soon as I'm back. Currently it's just trying to get rid of whatever's haunting me
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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@mickison - Your experience sounds similar (but worse) than mine, glad to hear I'm not the only one getting buried by TR!

There's def something about the low frequency but very high intensity of the workouts in the triathlon plans that I think is a setup for failure. They don't look that hard on paper (I actually was worried it would be too easy before starting the plan - only 3.5hrs/wk of biking? Pfffffh - I do that in a single ride outdoors no problemo!) but once you do more than 2 weeks, that intensity leaves you groveling, and unfortunately there's no built in pullback weeks AND even if you decide to take a week off, you're coming back to even harder work on the schedule.

It def opened my eyes to the value of a coach, or if you don't have one like me (it would be a waste on me as my training sched varies due to work/family commitments), you REALLY have to play super close attention to fatigue or even a sense of fatigue, even if you are able to dig deep to hit all those workouts.

My running sucked big time on the TR plan, mostly because I couldn't run enough or hard enough without compromising my bike training. Now that I've pulled back on the bike, my running is coming back strong, and I don't even think I'm declining significantly on the bike.

I do think a good general guideline for us M40+ AGers is that if the workouts get so hard that you are regularly dreading them, you've got to back off. Even if you CAN finish those dreaded workouts, it'll probably leave you in a hole that takes too long to dig out of. (Yeah, you know about those TR 130% FTP x 3' intervals, gaaaaaah!)
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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There's definitely seems to be a fine line between hard enough to see improvement and so hard you get buried.

Before following the TR plan, my previous couple of HIMs which were my first two, I followed a plan from triradar and then one purchased on trainingpeaks. They were both beginner plans going off RPE. I had no power meter so that was fine. And many of the interval bike workouts were just repeats of hard as you can for 2 minutes. easy spin for 4 minutes. repeat X number of times. then there would be a long endurance ride and/or run on the weekend. Those worked out fine as I was new. It provided some structure.

after that I started doing some more TR workouts here and there and then did their plans. It sounds like a lot of people love TR and have had good results with their plans. For me, I didn't recognize quickly enough I was wearing down. I definitely have the personality of not wanting to deviate from the plan as presented. So I didn't want to reduce intensity or anything. I know better now but didn't then. I still am hard headed about wanted to follow a workout as presented no matter what but I have a coach now to put the brakes on and force me to dial it back and/or take an extra day off. I'm getting into late 40s and have been in triathlon only 5 years but am only now getting a feel for what intensity works for me and how I respond to it.

I still like TR and like their workouts I just have to sort out when I need to dial things back or when I just need to push through it.
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, exactly. That makes way more sense. We as triathletes are born to dig ourselves into a hole if we have a plan in front of us and no one tells us that it's okay to back off now. And that's exactly what I did.
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [cmart] [ In reply to ]
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I love TR workouts, but the way they are designed in their plans, i swear you would be doing well to do them as bike only training, forget swim and run on top. I went through similar things not so long ago. Granted i was racing a fair bit, but i was doing a lot of those v02 workouts as well as trying to fit in a threshold ride as well per week. Ended up in a hole and had to stop completely for a few weeks. Burnt quads, my motivation went unlike yours, wanted to give it away. I then hired a coach and rebuilt for the back half of the season. Coaches workouts are much easier and doable. Racing since then has been hit and miss, but generally if im hungry, ill do well. If im not, then i suck, but thats to be expected. I have learnt its hard to stay hungry with so much intensity in training when trying to race on top....but even without racing, the plans call for way too much intensity imo. Recovery is underrated. Less is more sometimes. And its often not till its too late you find you have dug a hole. Someone mentioned Trainingpeaks numbers, but i dont put huge faith in them, as they dont account for life stressors. The positive for you, it seems, is you are still motivated to do this sport. Maybe you are overreaching and teetering on pushing too much. Try a week of FULL days off, then rebuild slowly?
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]
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I think the time for overreaching has passed. But I don't know for sure. Currently it's a mix of frustration, stress, anxiety and overtraining/overreaching. All the things that make me tired.

The motivation is there in the sense that deep down I want to be back because I know haven't given it all I've got or not in the best way at least and I do know how cool riding a bike can feel, a swim in the sun or a run when you're fit and easy pace feels like you're floating. But on bad days currently I'm a step away from selling my bikes and everything. To make matters worse I'm coming off a knee surgery from end of last year. I waited until I really felt fine again before pulling the trigger on a new and my first TT bike. That's exactly when my problems started. Haven't ridden it once outside which depresses me even more.


Not being able to train during recovery from knee surgery didn't bother me that much. It was easier because I had a diagnosis, I knew that it will heal, I knew what I had to do. All of this is not specific or diagnosed enough to give me this feeling. But then again.. that's what overtraining seems to be :/
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [cmart] [ In reply to ]
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I would be surprised if that is over training or over reaching given the severity and duration of your symptoms.
My money would be on something else going on, certainly there are a number of weird viruses that can cause this-were you tested for the likes of ebv (glandular fever) and other viral illnesses that can cause this pattern of symptoms. Depending on where you live there can be all sorts of tropical and mosquito borne viruses that could cause this.
In medicine we often talk about Occam's razor. On balance of things I think you are far more likely to have something else going on then to have this all explained by overtraining.
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [pbnz] [ In reply to ]
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pbnz wrote:
I would be surprised if that is over training or over reaching given the severity and duration of your symptoms.
My money would be on something else going on, certainly there are a number of weird viruses that can cause this-were you tested for the likes of ebv (glandular fever) and other viral illnesses that can cause this pattern of symptoms. Depending on where you live there can be all sorts of tropical and mosquito borne viruses that could cause this.
In medicine we often talk about Occam's razor. On balance of things I think you are far more likely to have something else going on then to have this all explained by overtraining.

Well, overtraining can go on for months. For some it's career ending. Also I know this feeling from recent years. But normally it went away with a few days of rest or a week. I had ebv virus when I was a kid, nearly 20y ago. Never really noticed it at this time apart from being mildly sick multiple times a year. Also I'm in Central Europe so not a lot of tropical things going round here. What is/was going around though are viruses of all kind including influenza. Lot of colleagues sick like I mentioned in the original post. But even one of these cold viruses wouldn't be an explanation for the extreme performance drop imo.

In Strava I saw nearly the same thing happening 2 years ago when I was running only. Took 7 or 10 days off because of a cold or maybe even influenza. Tried for 3 or 4 weeks to come back. Felt like I was just starting to run. High hr, slow pace. At some point I deemed it pointless and took a week total off, my hr for an easy run went from 140 to 125 and still remember that it felt really easy again and from that on I was healed.

This time though I can't seem to make this breakthrough. Maybe because the overtraining/reaching is more severe and I just need more rest. That's the hard part though, not knowing :/
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [cmart] [ In reply to ]
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May in no way be related but I was hitting the form of my life and then went into a chronic fatigue like situation. I had regularly had headaches and was always on ibuprofen to manage them especially to manage my poor sleep. Long story short after an eternity to work out, the headaches were caused by a parasite in my intestine caught where and when??? The constant ibuprofen abuse decimated my good stomach bacteria causing the fatigue. As I say may not be related but something to think about if you can't find anything else. I went and had a stool sample analysed on the recommendation of a nutritionist after years of doctors including those to be specialists in such fields of diagnosing fatigue.
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [cmart] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think you've mentioned how far down the track you are now from when this first started and how old you are?
Just to me, it does not sound like you were really training that much and your symptoms are more readily explained by something else.
I have taken 4-6 weeks to recover from some big races and races where I felt I have done damage to my body, but there was a clear stimulus for the injury/feeling whereas the intensity and duration of training in your case does not seem to match the severity and duration of your symptoms now, hence why with the info you have provided I would think it more likely something else was going on.
Unfortunately the reality is that time will be the best medicine with both scenarios....
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [pbnz] [ In reply to ]
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pbnz wrote:
I don't think you've mentioned how far down the track you are now from when this first started and how old you are?
Just to me, it does not sound like you were really training that much and your symptoms are more readily explained by something else.
I have taken 4-6 weeks to recover from some big races and races where I felt I have done damage to my body, but there was a clear stimulus for the injury/feeling whereas the intensity and duration of training in your case does not seem to match the severity and duration of your symptoms now, hence why with the info you have provided I would think it more likely something else was going on.
Unfortunately the reality is that time will be the best medicine with both scenarios....

Yes. If it's a virus or overtraining or both. All of it will take time and rest to heal. I'm relatively new, around 1 1/2 years into triathlon and I'm 31. I was running before that but nowhere near this volume of triathlon. For me, with the intensity in the tr plan, I felt like I couldn't have handled a single a workout more in a week. Not with working full time. I think I could have handled also 15 hours instead of 10-11 with a different intensity distribution though. I definitely had to take pain killers prescribed by the doctor as well. He even gave me antibiotics which was definitely the wrong call. Anyway, CRP in blood is effectively 0, so there's no infection in the body
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [cmart] [ In reply to ]
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One comment from me.

The worst time I’ve gone through with similar fatigue problems came down to calories and also strength training

I was simply not giving myself the food needed to fuel the workouts and it dug a deeper and deeper hole.

As well, life stress was getting higher at work -
I developed anxiety, sleep problems, mental health issues - stuff that has NEVER come up before in my life

If I combined this with heavy lifting like deadlifts that caused big CNS fatigue it would put me in a very bad place and the DOMS issues you mentioned occurred

So my two cents would be - have you considered ramping up your food intake to cover the higher expenditure in energy being put out?

This combined with rest and taking some time to sort out work eventually fixed me up
Last edited by: randomtriguy: Mar 26, 19 5:46
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [randomtriguy] [ In reply to ]
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randomtriguy wrote:
One comment from me.

The worst time I’ve gone through with similar fatigue problems came down to calories and also strength training

I was simply not giving myself the food needed to fuel the workouts and it dug a deeper and deeper hole.

As well, life stress was getting higher at work -
I developed anxiety, sleep problems, mental health issues - stuff that has NEVER come up before in my life

If I combined this with heavy lifting like deadlifts that caused big CNS fatigue it would put me in a very bad place and the DOMS issues you mentioned occurred

So my two cents would be - have you considered ramping up your food intake to cover the higher expenditure in energy being put out?

This combined with rest and taking some time to sort out work eventually fixed me up

My first thought was glycogen depletion.

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The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [randomtriguy] [ In reply to ]
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randomtriguy wrote:
One comment from me.

The worst time I’ve gone through with similar fatigue problems came down to calories and also strength training

I was simply not giving myself the food needed to fuel the workouts and it dug a deeper and deeper hole.

As well, life stress was getting higher at work -
I developed anxiety, sleep problems, mental health issues - stuff that has NEVER come up before in my life

If I combined this with heavy lifting like deadlifts that caused big CNS fatigue it would put me in a very bad place and the DOMS issues you mentioned occurred

So my two cents would be - have you considered ramping up your food intake to cover the higher expenditure in energy being put out?

This combined with rest and taking some time to sort out work eventually fixed me up

Do you track your calories? I'm always curious how other triathletes manage their diets. I tracked calories for a bit and it just got annoying. Now, I just attempt to make sure I'm eating healthier and fairly well balanced. In addition, I now just eat when I'm hungry and try to get a better sense and be "in tune" with when I'm actually hungry and when I'm full as opposed to just eating for the sake of eating if that makes any sense. I weigh myself mainly to make sure I don't get below like 170. I'm 6' 2" and generally start the season at 175 and if I'm training a lot will usually move closer to 170. I'm sure others faster than myself at same height weigh less but I just don't like being that skinny.
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Re: Is this overtraining? Any tips? [randomtriguy] [ In reply to ]
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randomtriguy wrote:
One comment from me.

The worst time I’ve gone through with similar fatigue problems came down to calories and also strength training

I was simply not giving myself the food needed to fuel the workouts and it dug a deeper and deeper hole.

As well, life stress was getting higher at work -
I developed anxiety, sleep problems, mental health issues - stuff that has NEVER come up before in my life

If I combined this with heavy lifting like deadlifts that caused big CNS fatigue it would put me in a very bad place and the DOMS issues you mentioned occurred

So my two cents would be - have you considered ramping up your food intake to cover the higher expenditure in energy being put out?

This combined with rest and taking some time to sort out work eventually fixed me up

I mean it could be that i undefueled during the build phase. Interesting to see you also developed anxiety. I've had these phases after sickness quite often that I don't seem to recover fast and sport feels extremely draining with high hr. Also a little bit of fatigue and lightheadedness throughout the day. Seems that's how my body responses to still not feeling well or anxiety was in the mix already multiple times and just the panic attack this time around made it clear to me.
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