I'd say unequivocally "NO" there is not. Not to dismiss your argument out of hand - you make some very good points. But I think a qualified fitter is not just going to look at your fit, they're going to ask you "how does that feel?" As for the other things you mention, steep v. shallow, bars hi v. low, a good fitter should ask questions and help you ge the best position. For example: what races are you doing? (IMF and IMUSA could require different postions) How flexible are you? How aggressive do you want to be? I just got done buying a new bike and though I've not been fit yet (that's next) these were the types of questions asked of me when doing my measurements and determining what bike it is I should be getting. And thinking out loud - that's probably the more crucial part. Adjusting the ACTUAL fit 1cm here and there based on feel certainly makes sense, but for that to happe, getting on the right steed and being in that +/- 1cm ballpark in the first place is quite crucial and where a good fit comes in. FWIW...

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"To give less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." - Pre

MattMizenko.com

If you don't have the knowlege to fit yourself then I think a professional fitting is a good idea. To date I haven't gone for a professional fitting because I *think* that I've got it right. But this has taken me hours of research on the net to read everything that I can find dealing with bike fit. It would be a bit brash of me to claim I know it all as we have people on this forum such as Gerard, Dan and Tom who have years of experience either building or fitting bikes. So it really depends upon *who* is doing the professional fitting. My wife and I set up both her road bike and P2K based upon the info we've learned over the web. It also probably helped that I'm a chiropractor and she has a degree in human kinesiology, so we were able to understand what we were reading. When she then went for a pro fit it turns out that our effort was right on. This shows that the information for self fitting is available. It just means a big effort to research it and interpret it. Also my personality is such that I'm one of these people who always wants to do my own mechanical work,etc.

Correct bike fit is the most important thing when buying a bike. Whether you can fit yourself properly or pay a professional to do it it really doesn't matter as long as it is done properly. For most people the hundred bucks or so with a professional is money well spent.

Now given, and for the purposes of disclosure: I'm a "bike fitter" and sell triathlon bikes for a living. Having said that, No, there is not nearly enough emphasis on professional fitting. IMHO aspects of your post only reinforce my point. It sounds like you don't have an understanding of how fit works (which is understandable, you don't actually need to understand how it works, you just need to have good fit- not necessarily an understanding of it). The reason I say that is you talk about how the bike "feels" "Feel" and "Fit" are two completely different things. A bike can "feel" fine or even good and "fit" poorly or not at all. Conversely, a bike can "Fit" perfectly (both frame fit and rider position) and "Feel" completely unnatrual. When I do a golf swing correctly it feels unnatural to me since I am not a golfer. Fit is a function of the mechanics of how the body measurements interface with the bicycle components and how they are adjusted, and also a function of the athlete's ability to acclimate to the fit. That takes time and is the reason why precise fit and postion is so critical to beginners. I could go on forever, but I respectfully disagree with your assertion. MOST of the bikes I see in transition areas do not fit their riders optimally, but most of those riders say "It feels fine!". They could be faster, safer and more injury resistant if it fit right, in addition to usually running more easily off the bike. Uh oh....you got me going.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I have seen a fitting defined as everything from "when your feet just touch the ground" to a 3 hour session including measuring watts on a computrainer. Anyone want to describe what a "professional bike fitting" is?

I don't feel that there's too much emphasis on pro fittings, but I don't feel that there's not enough either. I found my position well before pro fittings for tri were even available. Before Dan was even building bikes (okay, at least before QR was in widespread existance, anyway). There was precious little information available, and what WAS available certianly wasn't just at our fingertips (like it is now over the 'net). We HAD to go by feel and the empirical data of "Am I faster?"

Granted, any one who goes into a fitter and doesn't give any feedback is going to end up with a very aero position that they won't be able to maintain. But if a pro fitting had been available to me, it would have taken YEARS of tweaking away from the achievement of a comfortable and efficient aero position. Can some one get there on their own? Absolutely. I just think that the pro fitting will vastly accelerate getting to that optimum, and in the end can save money in discarded stems, aero bars, seatposts, and even frames.

When the configuration of the bicycle is optimized to interface with the dimensions, ability and application of a given rider. That is the definition of a professional fit.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Thanks for the responses, interesting.

FWIW, I do actually understand a good bit about fit. I have a Kinesiology degree (U of Waterloo, 1993) and have been a roadie for about 10 years, dabbling in tri on occasion. I am also extremely meticulous when it comes to my bike setup, as any misadjustment will usually make itself evident as an ache or pain somewhere.

I agree with you that many folks are not set up well. many are. I never said that a professional fitter wasn't worthless, actually the experience they have can be invaluable when trying to diagnose and correct some problems. In my case, I have short legs, long torso, and trying to find a frame that would work for me was extremely difficult. The idea for me getting fit way back when was to see if I needed a custom frame or not. It was a useful exercise, as we found that I could get what I needed with a Serotta 54 Long and a 130mm stem. Saved me a bunch of cash by allowing me to get a stock frame rather than a custom.

I guess we can agree to disagree. to me Fit and Feel are synonymous, or at least Fit drives Feel. Feel is more than "does it feel fine". it includes, among other things, what hurts most, least. If you ask directed questions, eventually someone will be able to tell you what is wrong with their position.

A checklist that anyone can have access to would be an invaluable resource for people to self diagnose any fit issues they might have. Something along the lines of:

---- symptoms--- : possible corrective actions

--- multiple issues ---- : start with x then adjust y then z, etc.

If someone is completely screwed up, then yeah a professional might be able to help get back to a new starting point. but then the fine tuning process would start all over again.

I stand by my original statement that no-one will be able to tell me what certain aspects of my position should be, esp. fore/aft saddle position and bar height. The fitter will tell me, generally, what I have already told them in different words. I am almost positive that no fitter would have recommended that Spencer Smith be set up the way he is, but it works for him. For those old enough to remember, what about Sean Kelly? Both guys LOOK terrible on the bike, but you cannot argue with success.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I agree with JasonK, sometimes I'm reading a kind of pressure that without being fit for a Professional Fitter we won't be able to race anymore... That's not true !!!!

Professional Fitter is of course a plus, for the people that have money to pay each time they decide to change the bike.... I probably have money to pay for a fit session, but since I've change the bike 4 times in the last 2 years, ( and not because they were bad ones, but just for the pleasure of riding different machines !!!! ) and I could ( thanks god ) fit myself in all of them .... I don't feel the "need to do it " pressure....

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Luiz

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Luiz Eng

Hmmm, I see your point, and appreciate our different perspectives. You have a substantial degree of expereince and that (I think...) influences your perspective. My expereinces influence mine. Here's an insight into my mindset (If you are interested...):
Two entry level triathletes: One is professionally fitted on a new bike selected specifically based on their measurements.
The other buys a bike based on feel. My opinion is that the one fitted professionally will have a tangible performance, comfort and safety advantage over the entry level athlete who bought on feel.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

From my perspective in the upper age groups and therefore always starting toward the back of the pack, I think not enough athletes bother to get properly fitted, or know enough to know they should get fitted. BOPer's and first-timers often go down to the LBS, without questioning whether the shop knows what it's doing, and jump on the first bike the sales guys shows them. They are not fit at all, and then they show up at training and the race barely able to ride their bikes, but not knowing why. Their hips wobble, they are all stretched out, and their knees and backs hurt. Often they give up, because the experience is just too painful.

The shops like Tom's and the good ones here in the south Bay Area often miss these people, because they are attracted to the huge sale signs in front of the lower end shops. When I went to a good shop to buy my second bike, and had my shopping overseen by someone who knew what they were doing, it was a completely different and happy experience. When I finally got on the bike the was right for me, I knew it instantly from feel, even before they put me up on the trainer and got me fitted properly, and that feeling has been reinforced over the thousands of miles I have put on it. I never fail to say at the end of a ride, no matter how long, "I LOVE this bike!" That's when you know the bike shop has done its job, not only for the competitive folks in front but the for fitness-seekers in the back.

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Jacquie Mardell

USA Triathlon certified coach
ASCA/USA Swimming certified coach
http://www.ladolcevelo.com

I am actually interested. You are probably right, I grew up in the "I paid my dues, and by God so will you" school. I also have a personal bias against when I ask someone why they've done something in a certain way -- "because so and so told me to". You have grey matter, use it.

My opinion is that the newbie "might" be better on the pro fit bike. On the other hand, if the fitter does not do a good job (I've never been to your shop, so I am assuming that you do a good one) there is a risk that they can unknowingly pressure the newbie into making some poor choices. Worst case, they knowingly make recommendations to sell bikes that are in stock. (strictly hypothetical, of course).

For most people, not all, but most, the old straddle the bike, 1 inch clearance, does actually work to figure out frame size. Some may need some different stem length than what the bike comes with. Slap on a set of tribars and you get a pretty good triathlon bike for a newbie who really does not have the experience to know what they want yet. From there, they can experiment with forward seatposts and the like. There is really no substitute for experience.

BTW, do you loan out or rent out Look Ergostems to customers? Just asking, I used one for about 6 months to dial-in my position, then sold it to someone else who was looking to do the same thing. It is a great tool for experimentation.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Jacquie makes a good point that is worth expanding on. I know that I share this with other good bike fitters too- We really sweat the details so you don't have to. I know that I am way more concerned with how a customer's bike fits them than they are. I know that I am much fussier about how the customer's bike is built than they are. I know there are aspects of a bike build that we do that a customer will never see or know about but will benefit from without even knowing it. I really sweat each and every bike. When we make a mistake (and we do sometimes) it breaks my heart. When we get it right and a customer benefits from what we do it is the most rewarding thing in my life- more than anything. It is huge. I recently started dating an engineer from Siemens Corporation. She is a very smart girl but always comes home from work feeling like that day was wasted and she has made no progress or accomplished anything tangible. When I get to the end of the season and see how many people finished events on bikes we poured our heart and soul into I feel like the richest man, the baddest dude, the coolest guy on the planet. Every customer that comes in here is important to me, their races are important to me, and their bikes are critical to me. I make a lot less here than if I were four blocks from here working at Ford, and I've made a lot of personal sacrifices to be here. I love building and fitting these bikes, and I would like to hope that is reflected in the end product. The highest compliment we are paid is when a customer says "Man, I don't know much about bikes, but I haven't had any problems with this one and I never have to think about the bike. I just get on it and ride..."

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

i think you've set up a straw man to knock him down. you appear to take as a given that "subjective feel" and "professional fit" are mutual exclusives. i can't imagine anyone NOT emphasizing comfort and feel while performaing a proper, professional bike fit.

further, my views on tri bike fit were born on the basis of the process you describe. when i designed the first QR tri bike in '88 it was not a product of views i held in a vacuum. i just went around the transition area and measured the saddle, handlebar, etc., positions on the bikes ridden by paula, tinley, allen, zack, browning, kiuru, etc. (they all had strange stems and seat posts allowing them to retrofit their standard road bikes, because there was no such thing then as a "tri bike" in the way we think of them today).

i thought it relevant that the world's best pro triathletes seem to approach riding a bike outfitted with aero bars in a remarkably similar fashion, with few exceptions (and in fact that is still the case today). but they all came to their own realization of how their bikes ought to fit more or less independently, and that process they each went through is basically what you're talking about.

if you read what we've written about bike fit, and about our FIST workshops, you'll realize that we believe in a typical tri position, but not a universal tri position. the difference is that the typical position requires a degree of athleticism that only (let us say) half the customers that go into a tri shop can accommodate. it's the position that more or less ALL the pros can accommodate, however. the other half of these bike shop customers shouldn't be set up in that typical position, because it doesn't "feel" right (for lack of a more precise description).

i would also say to anyone i fit that what i've given is a sort of "macro" bike fit. the "micro" fit is something the end-user accomplishes on his own, and it's going to be 5mm or 10mm of higher or lower handlebar height, the same amount of stem length (shorter or longer), seat height, saddle tilt, aerobar tilt, saddle fore/aft, etc.

could you achieve all this by yourself? yes. but you might figure it out in 3 years of trial and error, whereas i might help you figure it out in 3 hours. and i might save you a lot of money in the process, since you won't have to buy a half-dozen different models and sizes of stems, saddles, frames, aero bars, base bars, etc., in order to find out what feels good.

(that is, if i did bike fits, which i don't anymore).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan makes a number of good points. I want to expand on one of those by adding that bike fit is not a matter of simply taking a good set of measurements and then plugging the numbers into an equation to generate a frame's dimensions and geometry, reach, saddle height, stem length, etc. That is a start point. From there we put those dimensions onto the bike and then put the customer on the bike. Then we have to observe the customer and apply sound mechanical knowledge and experience to facilitate an acceptable degree of comfort within the acceptable parameters of that position. It isn't rocket science, but it is science. It is also a good measure of asking the right questions, listening, listening, listening to the customer and thinking about what they say then applying sound logic and reasoning to the problem.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

The main problem with a "good Fit" is that it is very new,in the sense that the more than standard 73 degree bikes are realtively new. Most bike shop owners do not know how to fit these type of bikes. And I don't think that most bike shop owners care. They say that they do but when its the end of the month and rent is do or your kid needs braces, well the truth is probably not always relayed to the customer. The other problem is that most so called "fitters" are doing five things at once in their store. The phone is ringing, employees have questions, the time required to answer questions and to talk to the fitter is not always spent with the rider exclusively. I've been riding for many years and been to a few "fitters" and have not learned anything new from reading or from experience. The fit is a general starting point and then it is usally up to the individual to make the final tweak.

Dan,

Burst my Bubble! I have only been working on dialing in my position for about 15 years, and think I have it pretty good. I was proud of my speed in getting this accomplished;, of course, I did have "to buy a half-dozen different models and sizes of stems, saddles, frames, aero bars, base bars, etc."

I definitely agree think fitting plus feel is the way to go. I wish a Slowtwitch certified specialist was available to me a number of years ago......then I'd have a good bit more money in the kids college fund.

david

P.S. Dan, this is edited b/c the prior version was posted blank. I've had that problem a number of times and only when using the quote feature. Many Thanks.

could you achieve all this by yourself? yes. but you might figure it out in 3 years of trial and error, whereas i might help you figure it out in 3 hours. and i might save you a lot of money in the process, since you won't have to buy a half-dozen different models and sizes of stems, saddles, frames, aero bars, base bars, etc., in order to find out what feels good



This is so true that its not funny. Was a newbie 4 yrs ago, walked into a bike store after IMC said sell me a bike, they got two models (both on close out) told to straddle it, said here is the right size, go ride a round the block and chose which felt best. I am not kidding. I still have basically that same bike, but spent way to much time trying to make it "fit". Now from all that messing around and experiments I kind of know what I need, but I do know for sure that what I have is not the right size. I am sure this is a typical story for many. 4 yrs on, in fact last weekend I just changed fore and aft for the hundred time, I race in about 7 weeks (IMNZ)!

In my area there are a fair number of triathletes, and very few stores. I accompanied a newbie to buy her first bike, and ended up fitting her on the shop floor with the sales guy doing the wrenching. She paid good money for the bike, and I am no way an expert but she was about all I had interms of advice. That is sad. She can swim like a fish and will no doubt make a good long distance tri head, but no experience of biking, until now. I hope I got it right. If the guys in store knew their stuff I would have never spoken up, I was there for moral support initially.

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Simple Simon
Where's the Fried Chicken??

Though in my case, if I'd used that rule for the new bike, I would have ended up with something about two bike sizes too big. (all legs-no torso) Since I didn't have the $$$ for something truly custom, it was a case of finding something with a short enough top tube that was in my price range, and working from there.

The fitting I got at the shop didn't lay down some sort of absolute, you will set up your bike in x manner. More along the lines of we're going to cover the basics here, and if you want to start tweaking, if you do x, y will happen. Though I haven't tweaked much. The previous bike had been giving me all kinds of back pain. So far with the new one, zero back pain.

"Slap on a set of tribars and you get a pretty good triathlon bike for a newbie."

i sort of agree, but with this caveat. slap a set of shorty tri bars (e.g., profile jammer GTs) and you have a pretty good tri bike for a newbie. slap a regular set of tri bars and you have a very stretched out aero position for a newbie (or anybody). move the seat way 6cm forward and, yeah, add 6cm to the aero bar extensions--that is, you're back to at least a size-short aero bar. absent that, spinacis and c2clips can't BOTH be right for a road race bike with road race geometry. pick a geometry, then pick the appropriate bar.

in other words: just because somebody's a newbie, that doesn't mean the issues of fit can be less precise. if i was to ride a road race bike--set up as such--in a triathlon, i'd be reasonably happy, but if you gave me a set of full-extension clip-ons, i'd sell them on ebay. they'd be useless on that bike.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

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Slap on a set of tribars and you get a pretty good triathlon bike for a newbie."

i sort of agree, but with this caveat. slap a set of shorty tri bars (e.g., profile jammer GTs) and you have a pretty good tri bike for a newbie. slap a regular set of tri bars and you have a very stretched out aero position for a newbie (or anybody). move the seat way 6cm forward and, yeah, add 6cm to the aero bar extensions--that is, you're back to at least a size-short aero bar. absent that, spinacis and c2clips can't BOTH be right for a road race bike with road race geometry. pick a geometry, then pick the appropriate bar.

in other words: just because somebody's a newbie, that doesn't mean the issues of fit can be less precise. if i was to ride a road race bike--set up as such--in a triathlon, i'd be reasonably happy, but if you gave me a set of full-extension clip-ons, i'd sell them on ebay. they'd be useless on that bike.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

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Sorry, that's what I should have said. I was making an assumption there that people would chooze the correct size for the application. I've been using Carbon strykes, adjusted so that they are pretty short, for events where I'd rather use a road bike, since they set up a couple of cms lower than the Jammer GTs. Also, to clarify, by "newbie" I mean someone with no tri or cycling background, who doesn't own a road bike at all. If you only have one bike, the versatility offered by a road bike, to me anyway, outweighs the advantages of a tri bike. For someone who has a road bike already, then yeah, they can use what they know from that as a basis for deciding on what they need from a tri bike. Most folks new to the sport (I mean new to cycling and tri) will not be comfortable on a tri bike right away. The road bike will normally not be made obsolete by having a tri bike as well. The tri bike can be useless if it does not work for the individual, as you cannot (to my knowledge) adapt one to a regular road position. It is easier to make a shallow bike steep than vice versa.

Yes, the fit does need to be precise. I have never said it didn't, although perhaps I did oversimplify the fitting process (straddle rule) in one of my posts above. My point is that only the individual can decide on what the fit needs to be. I guess I was thinking about some previous posts as well, where people were critiquing certain athletes fit based solely on photos. Just seems like the default response is to go see a fitter, rather than to at least attempt to figure out what the real problems might be. With all of the talk about professional fitting, it seems like the traditional rules of thumb, which work pretty well, have gotten lost in the mix. Those rules of thumb are vital for the fine-tuning process that occurs after you get in the ballpark set by your fitter / LBS / coach / best friend's dog. And they'll also help you figure out if the guy you're putting you're trust in has a clue or not.

That's enough for now. Bedtime. Later.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Last November I had to decide if I want to get my first real tri bike (that is not fitted professionaly because of mail order in US) or keep my old secondhand road bike with aerobars.
I couldn't afford a new triathlon bike bought and fitted in Switzerland (it would have cost me at least $2400 compared to $1600 for my 2002 Cervelo One bought at Nytro.com).
I bought the One and I am very happy with it. It feels much better and faster than the old bike. I asked more than one dealer which frame size they recommend to make sure to have the right one.
I will probably let it service and fit it to me after one or two season by a local Cevrelo dealer.

I know that professional fitting would be good. But for my situation mail order of a not fitted bike was better!

Felix, Switzerland

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http://www.weilenmann.ch.vu